Website Feedback
Closed Threads
IRC Chat
irc.quakenet.org #teamliquid
IRC Web ClientTeamSpeak 3 (41 users) | |
|
| aaycumi England. August 13 2012 09:59. Posts 230 | Profile # |
*EDIT: Just realised the title makes this sound like 2 tech lab build, its a Reactor and Tech Lab build just to be clear.
**EDIT: @PokeBunny, http://www.sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaoFaoDaaiYoCjoFoQfaoEaaoEiZoPauWkiZaafoAiXaoEkiZaoEakiZakiZaiKfaoC
<< 12 Rax, 13 Gas, yeah same thing basically, but still cuts the same as the gas first. See Versus section
**How to use the build graphs: hover your mouse over the units buildings and research it will tell you when they start and finish, this build is time around a 4-gate and 1 Gate FE timings; click whatever you like on the sidebar
***but if there are gaps bigger than 3 seconds that is cutting army or economy and is not recommend. move your thing to 10 seconds forward and it should be okay.
A Proposal to you Personally:
If you dump the old 12 Rax 13 Gas opening, and 12 Gas 13 Rax instead when doing a 2 Rax Marauder Poke; and in-exchange I'll give you a faster build and stronger timing or a faster Command Center (2) that can go on the low ground and have a Marauder within 20 seconds and still pressure Protoss at the same timing.
Or you can just Marauder FE,
http://www.sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaoFaaaoCjoDoAcfaoEaoPakuWaaoFoFjafoCajiKajfajajajaoQoQaaf >> if you prefer doing a 1 Rax FE a bit safer.
*Produce extra Marauders as you lose them with this build.
Intro:
I hate the passivity of a 1 Rax FE, into MMM and how weak it is before Stimpack.
http://www.sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaoFaaaoCjoAfaoEjaoFjaoHaoDoDjacacoCjfjajjoIafaaoQaoQoEaaaaoEfoRaiZaiZoEqauZafiZiZ << Hence my old build
(used it for a 5 rax 1-1 timing); stole it off MarineKing from a Day9 Daily. (Did I mention, my micro is horrible)
But, it did not have any ability to pressure a fast expansion until 8 mins and...
the reactors finish just as a 4-Gate hits...
The Problem and Solution:
I get 4-Gated, A LOT, I'm not even joking, about 50% of my TvP games (the rest are Expand > Tech builds); I just could not use the 1 Rax FE and feel comfortable anymore; so I had to come up with a Pressure Expand build. (Mainly to improve my micro management.
So, I've been messing around with the build order of a normal 2 Rax, for ages.
And came up with a faster version of it that got rid of the excess Vespene Gas from a 12 Rax 13 Gas opening. But, a wall-off meant having to cut something like workers so I wrote it off as trash.
http://www.sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaoFaoDaacoCjoFoQfaoEaaiZoPoEaiZakuWafiZoEkaiZaaoA
*Standard Two Rax Marauder Poke, CC (2) Timing = 5.40, if you cut army after Marauder (2) (200 Gas Banked); no one does this cut for CC (2) but this is as fast as the build can manage a CC (2), without cuts and makes a bunker rush impossible as well.
I know everyone claims a stupidly high rate of wins from their builds. I have a 100% rate surviving 4-gate builds, and any early attacks; because I scout religiously and just know the very few number of opening Protoss can do that make sense and this build just auto kills most one base non-Colossus rushes.
It just cause people cross their fingers and hope their build works in silver, I KNOW my build holds all-ins; because I would not use it otherwise.
Just to note: I have tried this build against Masters players doing 4-gates and everything else 1 base, and except for one base Colossus, I held with ease (you cant micro against Bunkers ), no SCVs lost no huge army loss either (a lot of dead bunkers though).
Why on Earth would I use this build?
Because the 2 Rax build is extremely safe against Warpgate rushes, if you find the proxy; you need to be active on the map until Warpgate finishes. And, you can attack a fast Nexus (2) build and still walk away with an economic edge. And, if I know my Craft those are the two main things Protoss do in the early game, and you can punish both and come out a head.
And, happened to come up with this variation version that makes the CC (2) after Supply Depot (3). And, can hit the same timing as the Gas-heavy version.
Why Should We Listen to You?
I write for Liquipedia, to keep active in Starcraft 2, but I'm only Silver... (mainly because of micro) but only recently have had a computer powerful enough to run SC2 without terrible lag past 100 food. So, that is what it is, please discuss the build on its merits and not me personally.
For the same reason, I am not going to post my own replays as they are just that Silver level, until I can get some replays against Master level Players if at all. I do not see the point; but will if necessary.
http://www.sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaoDaoFiXaaaoCjoFoQoEfaaoEoPiYaiZauWoAiZakoEafiZakiZaiKjaiZaoC << THE BUILD GRAPH
The Opening:
*10 - Supply Depot (1)
*12 - Refinery
*13 - Barracks (1)
*16 - Orbital Command (1)
*16 - Barracks (2)
*16 - Marine (1)
*17 - Reactor
*17 - Supply Depot (2)
*19 - Supply Depot (3)
*19 - Tech Lab < Add two SCVs to Gas
*20 - Marines
*22 - Command Center (2)
*23 - Concussive Shells
*26 - Marauders (to 2)
*28 - Supply Depot (4)
*37 - Stimpack
*41 - Orbital Command (2)
*Continue Marauder production if you want to continue on the map.
**Or use this build order as a normal three rax > reactor starport build and just add the extra Barracks later.
*Important: Cut Marauders @2 if you want Stimpack as soon as Shells finishes and no cuts around Orbital Command (2) finishing. Then carry on Marauder production after that Marine.
*Build Command Center (2) on the low ground, Protoss has about 20 second window to do some damage with ye old Zealot Stalker poke (SK_MC's 1 Gate Poke FE), then Marauder (1) finishes.
*1 Rax FE, CC (2) timing = 3.00 This Build, CC (2) timing = 4.20 without cuts
The build just produces units as normal as soon as the buildings and the add-ons are done, but the timings until Marauder (2) are extremely tight important; I think they call it an efficiency build? I cannot change the build order myself without worker or army cuts.
The only variation I've come up is getting Barracks (2) as soon as it can be afforded and then the build becomes a Bunker rush strategy
Gas First Versus Rax Gas:
Tried both versions, and I prefer Gas First. The build just times itself out better, whereas Rax Gas gets you the Marauder out quicker but I find the Depot and Work/Army cut there way too awkward. Gas First has the same army cut but hides it a tad bit better in my humble opinion.
So, Rax Gas is a tad bit safer but I personally like the relative timings of a Gas First; which is better? YOU DECIDE!
http://www.sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaoFaoDaaiYoCjoFoQfaoEaaoEiZoPauWkiZaafoAiXaoEkiZaoEakiZakiZaiKfaoC << Rax Gas
http://www.sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaoDaoFiXaaaoCjoFoQoEfaaoEoPiYaiZauWoAiZakoEafiZakiZaiKjaiZaoC << Gas First
Adaption:
Only one thing here, if you lose your army add two Barracks before Refinery (2), to get Marine count back up to defend any counter pushes.
This is my standard build except for huge ass Maps that make it hard to get to the enemy's base in time to pressure. I still do this build order to counter WarpGate rushes, but if I scout an FE; I just do a 1 Rax Reactor Double Expand.
For Protoss wondering how to hold a two Rax poke in General:
Target fire the Marauders and then its just an early Marine poke; Zealots are completely useless against this poke as well in my humble opinion.
Hard Counter: 1 Gate Robo Expand, so you have the Immortals and Sentries to hold the attack and crush it.
Soft Counter: 1 Gate FE into Super Fast (5 Chrono Warpgate) 3 Gate: Simply, out-produces the build and probably gifts you Terran's forward army as well.
Replays:
If you folks insist on replays, give me a while to practice the hell out of this build so I can at least not look like a complete moron... I'd rather not though, silver and all. I would prefer someone else but yeah; not likely. So let me know if you want this.
TL;DR:
*I am so comfortable with this build and its timings that I feel I OWN the early game in TvP; I hope you the same strong feeling with this build.
*This build is safe against all Warpgate rushes, but you need to find the proxy or they can out produce your army size with Chrono Boost and a Worker production halt.
*You can Bunker rush and Expand with this build, see the Build Order Graph.
*See for Protoss on how this build is hard-countered.
*Bunker up once Warpgate finishes, and work up to Medivacs, Stimpack and +1 Weapons. And you'll have the same army production @10 mins as a 1 Rax FE but off 4 Rax instead of 5.
*IF YOU STILL HAVE A HARD TIME, you need to work on your micro or switch to Siege Tech expand expand. Sorry.
***FOR NEWBIES***:
How to Stutter Step; right click away from Zealots and attack move (or right click S Right Click S); once they are dead; right click the ground towards Sentries and Stalkers and then target fire them one at a time and move as close as possible.
Against Colossi: Ctrl Click Marauders and Stutter Step towards them and fire at only the Colossus. This also forces them to move away from Marines.
Spread before Battle: Grab 1/3 of your army and move into an arc around where you think the army will come from. Move these lot as grounds when engaging and pick of Templar and Colossus using these Groups.
Try to keep the front line many Marauders.Last edit: 2012-08-13 23:35:39 |
| | DT Rush: "This build is generally weak to any kind of forge opener, or very strong, early, aggressive attack. Also, it counters itself..." Whinny Zerg: "If a scan costs 270 minerals, then all zerg buildings cost INFINITE minerals." | |
|
|
| Viter Denmark. August 13 2012 10:37. Posts 22 | Profile # |
Hey man cool guide, but just posting replays of you facing an ai would be nice :-). You're also going to get flamed for being in silver lol. a
By the way, I can assure you that it isn't the micro that's keeping you from ranking up, and it's macro, and so doing defensive macro builds are better for improving :-)
But replays would be nice. |
|
|
| aaycumi England. August 13 2012 10:42. Posts 230 | Profile # |
Sorry, you mis-understood, my micro is bad yes. But that is something I'll sort out over time, I saying I have not been playing seriously until like this week when I got a new computer that could handle SC2; I'm currently rank 10ish silver.
So, I do not expect to be Silver for much longer. Hellion Marauder Banshee all-in to GOLD!!!
And hope nobody goes Mutas...
Not a defensive macro build, other way round, expand > pressure > defend/hold ... PROFIT!!!Last edit: 2012-08-13 10:58:59 |
| | DT Rush: "This build is generally weak to any kind of forge opener, or very strong, early, aggressive attack. Also, it counters itself..." Whinny Zerg: "If a scan costs 270 minerals, then all zerg buildings cost INFINITE minerals." | |
|
|
| OSM.OneManArmy United States. August 13 2012 11:03. Posts 418 | Profile # |
| Uh you can hold off a 4gate pretty easily with a 1rax FE gasless. but ty for the gas b4 rax timings, will try it out maybe. |
| | Tupac R.I.P // Admin of HSL, a starleague for Highschoolers :D hsstarleague.com |
|
|
| aaycumi England. August 13 2012 11:50. Posts 230 | Profile # |
@OneManArmy, I know surround the Bunker with SCVs and cross your fingers.
It wasn't just the Stalker/Zealot all-in I mean, I just have a lot of problems with any early pressure attacks involving Sentries or them target-firing SCVs as they repair, it does not seem cost-effective trade to hold the 1 Rax FE and you have no offensive options with the 1 Rax FE besides a few mass Marine pokes, but you sac the Marines for Gateway stuff and I'd rather have an army that can retreat as well; if need be.
The nasty part is they see 2 Rax and expect a push to come off it as well, but instead you've expanded and attacked. So, this is just my personal preference build that I love. |
| | DT Rush: "This build is generally weak to any kind of forge opener, or very strong, early, aggressive attack. Also, it counters itself..." Whinny Zerg: "If a scan costs 270 minerals, then all zerg buildings cost INFINITE minerals." | |
|
|
| aaycumi England. August 13 2012 11:57. Posts 230 | Profile # |
| I've looked through all the replays I have of today and they are... trash, entertaining at best. So, sorry no replays for a few days (13/08) until I work out the transition and stop banking 1500 minerals; still end up with 150-175 food against 100-120 food (with 0 bank)?? Is there something I don't understand about Protoss macro? |
| | DT Rush: "This build is generally weak to any kind of forge opener, or very strong, early, aggressive attack. Also, it counters itself..." Whinny Zerg: "If a scan costs 270 minerals, then all zerg buildings cost INFINITE minerals." | |
|
|
| althaz Australia. August 13 2012 12:42. Posts 729 | Profile # |
| Why do you get the refinery before the barracks? If you get the rax first, you will still mine enough gas to build a reactor after builiding one marine, except your first marine is out quicker to chase away probes and your reactor is done quicker which should mean an extra 2 marines by the end? |
| | If history has taught us anything, we can use that information to destroy it. |
|
|
| Smoot United States. August 13 2012 13:40. Posts 120 | Profile # |
You hold 4 gates with a one rax expo by scouting and realizing that protoss has not expo'd at a reasonable time. Once you realize 1 base play is coming, you can put down another bunker (or 2 to be safe) and fill them up with marines, pull SCV's to repair. Even if you misread and see he has a late expo, you can simply salvage the bunker and you are out 25minerals.
4 gate does not beat 2-3 bunkers with SCV's Repairing.
And if you keep finding yourself with 1 bunker and lose to a 4 gate because you didn't get a good scout, then scan until you get better at scouting and reading the info.Last edit: 2012-08-13 13:47:04 |
|
|
| FataLe New Zealand. August 13 2012 13:51. Posts 3622 | Profile # |
On August 13 2012 13:40 Smoot wrote:
You hold 4 gates with a one rax expo by scouting and realizing that protoss has not expo'd at a reasonable time. Once you realize 1 base play is coming, you can put down another bunker (or 2 to be safe) and fill them up with marines, pull SCV's to repair. Even if you misread and see he has a late expo, you can simply salvage the bunker and you are out 25minerals.
4 gate does not beat 2-3 bunkers with SCV's Repairing.
And if you keep finding yourself with 1 bunker and lose to a 4 gate because you didn't get a good scout, then scan until you get better at scouting and reading the info.
what. just spot chrono usage and probe production. no need for any of that when you can narrow the build down to only 4 gate. |
| |
|
| ILouieI United States. August 13 2012 14:01. Posts 26 | Profile # |
didn't select used to exclusively use this build on his stream?
i mean there's a page for it already
 Two Rax with Marauder Push FE (vs. Protoss)
apologies if op was the one who wrote that guide but it's pretty much the only other standard opener vs p besides 1 rax fe |
|
|
| OSM.OneManArmy United States. August 13 2012 14:02. Posts 418 | Profile # |
On August 13 2012 11:50 aaycumi wrote:
@OneManArmy, I know surround the Bunker with SCVs and cross your fingers.
It wasn't just the Stalker/Zealot all-in I mean, I just have a lot of problems with any early pressure attacks involving Sentries or them target-firing SCVs as they repair, it does not seem cost-effective trade to hold the 1 Rax FE and you have no offensive options with the 1 Rax FE besides a few mass Marine pokes, but you sac the Marines for Gateway stuff and I'd rather have an army that can retreat as well; if need be.
The nasty part is they see 2 Rax and expect a push to come off it as well, but instead you've expanded and attacked. So, this is just my personal preference build that I love.
you're probably holding it wrong, you shouldn't even need to cross your fingers. 2bunkers easily holds a 4gate, if they do a delayed then u throw up a 3rd bunker. you can hold every 1base toss allin safely with a 1rax gasless. remember bunkers are free and toss's dont make probes during allins..... |
| | Tupac R.I.P // Admin of HSL, a starleague for Highschoolers :D hsstarleague.com |
|
|
| OSM.OneManArmy United States. August 13 2012 14:03. Posts 418 | Profile # |
On August 13 2012 13:40 Smoot wrote:
You hold 4 gates with a one rax expo by scouting and realizing that protoss has not expo'd at a reasonable time. Once you realize 1 base play is coming, you can put down another bunker (or 2 to be safe) and fill them up with marines, pull SCV's to repair. Even if you misread and see he has a late expo, you can simply salvage the bunker and you are out 25minerals.
4 gate does not beat 2-3 bunkers with SCV's Repairing.
And if you keep finding yourself with 1 bunker and lose to a 4 gate because you didn't get a good scout, then scan until you get better at scouting and reading the info.
exactly... thank you. also remember the easy reads for 1bade play - saved chrono.. |
| | Tupac R.I.P // Admin of HSL, a starleague for Highschoolers :D hsstarleague.com |
|
|
| Smoot United States. August 13 2012 14:03. Posts 120 | Profile # |
| He is silver. I'm trying to give a good rule of thumb by saying that if Toss hasn't expo'd than some sort of 1 base play is coming. Whether it be proxy air, 1 base colo, or 3 gate pressure into expo, he needs extra defense. As it was explained, he would hang out with 1 bunker and bring some SCV's hoping Toss wouldn't FF to deny repair. |
|
|
| Yoshi Kirishima United States. August 13 2012 14:09. Posts 9002 | Profile Blog # |
On August 13 2012 14:03 Smoot wrote:
He is silver. I'm trying to give a good rule of thumb by saying that if Toss hasn't expo'd than some sort of 1 base play is coming. Whether it be proxy air, 1 base colo, or 3 gate pressure into expo, he needs extra defense. As it was explained, he would hang out with 1 bunker and bring some SCV's hoping Toss wouldn't FF to deny repair.
I agree with what Smoot said. Saved up chrono and cutting probes doesn't mean it has to be a 4 gate, especially in lower levels where their builds aren't always optimal. Or perhaps they'll save up their chrono, having a later 4 gate push and deciding not to cut probes. But as long as you know he hasn't taken an expansion and thus realize he's playing 1 base, you are good to go.
On August 13 2012 13:51 FataLe wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 13:40 Smoot wrote:
You hold 4 gates with a one rax expo by scouting and realizing that protoss has not expo'd at a reasonable time. Once you realize 1 base play is coming, you can put down another bunker (or 2 to be safe) and fill them up with marines, pull SCV's to repair. Even if you misread and see he has a late expo, you can simply salvage the bunker and you are out 25minerals.
4 gate does not beat 2-3 bunkers with SCV's Repairing.
And if you keep finding yourself with 1 bunker and lose to a 4 gate because you didn't get a good scout, then scan until you get better at scouting and reading the info.
what. just spot chrono usage and probe production. no need for any of that when you can narrow the build down to only 4 gate.
What do you mean "no need for any of that"? 2-3 bunkers is how you stop 4 gate.Last edit: 2012-08-13 14:10:12 |
| | Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again." | |
|
|
| FataLe New Zealand. August 13 2012 14:19. Posts 3622 | Profile # |
On August 13 2012 14:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 14:03 Smoot wrote:
He is silver. I'm trying to give a good rule of thumb by saying that if Toss hasn't expo'd than some sort of 1 base play is coming. Whether it be proxy air, 1 base colo, or 3 gate pressure into expo, he needs extra defense. As it was explained, he would hang out with 1 bunker and bring some SCV's hoping Toss wouldn't FF to deny repair.
I agree with what Smoot said. Saved up chrono and cutting probes doesn't mean it has to be a 4 gate, especially in lower levels where their builds aren't always optimal. Or perhaps they'll save up their chrono, having a later 4 gate push and deciding not to cut probes. But as long as you know he hasn't taken an expansion and thus realize he's playing 1 base, you are good to go.
Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 13:51 FataLe wrote:
On August 13 2012 13:40 Smoot wrote:
You hold 4 gates with a one rax expo by scouting and realizing that protoss has not expo'd at a reasonable time. Once you realize 1 base play is coming, you can put down another bunker (or 2 to be safe) and fill them up with marines, pull SCV's to repair. Even if you misread and see he has a late expo, you can simply salvage the bunker and you are out 25minerals.
4 gate does not beat 2-3 bunkers with SCV's Repairing.
And if you keep finding yourself with 1 bunker and lose to a 4 gate because you didn't get a good scout, then scan until you get better at scouting and reading the info.
what. just spot chrono usage and probe production. no need for any of that when you can narrow the build down to only 4 gate.
What do you mean "no need for any of that"? 2-3 bunkers is how you stop 4 gate.
what i mean is his scouting. you're not narrowing builds down at all if you only scout for expo timing. He could be blink rush + proxy robo obsing you, he could be void ray all inning you, he could be dt rushing you he could be immortal busting you. Let's be more specific and narrow it down to one build so you know what's coming thus better preparing for it.
Last edit: 2012-08-13 14:19:47 |
| |
|
 Pokebunny United States. August 13 2012 14:21. Posts 9582 | Profile Blog # |
On August 13 2012 14:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 14:03 Smoot wrote:
He is silver. I'm trying to give a good rule of thumb by saying that if Toss hasn't expo'd than some sort of 1 base play is coming. Whether it be proxy air, 1 base colo, or 3 gate pressure into expo, he needs extra defense. As it was explained, he would hang out with 1 bunker and bring some SCV's hoping Toss wouldn't FF to deny repair.
I agree with what Smoot said. Saved up chrono and cutting probes doesn't mean it has to be a 4 gate, especially in lower levels where their builds aren't always optimal. Or perhaps they'll save up their chrono, having a later 4 gate push and deciding not to cut probes. But as long as you know he hasn't taken an expansion and thus realize he's playing 1 base, you are good to go.
Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 13:51 FataLe wrote:
On August 13 2012 13:40 Smoot wrote:
You hold 4 gates with a one rax expo by scouting and realizing that protoss has not expo'd at a reasonable time. Once you realize 1 base play is coming, you can put down another bunker (or 2 to be safe) and fill them up with marines, pull SCV's to repair. Even if you misread and see he has a late expo, you can simply salvage the bunker and you are out 25minerals.
4 gate does not beat 2-3 bunkers with SCV's Repairing.
And if you keep finding yourself with 1 bunker and lose to a 4 gate because you didn't get a good scout, then scan until you get better at scouting and reading the info.
what. just spot chrono usage and probe production. no need for any of that when you can narrow the build down to only 4 gate.
What do you mean "no need for any of that"? 2-3 bunkers is how you stop 4 gate.
Honestly, as of late I've found the best way to deal with 4gate is to simply lift and hold the ramp. I don't face it often, but when I did (and scouted it) I was just like "lol np 3 bunkers and repair gg". The problem is that protoss units just don't die fast enough to the ~7 marines you will have when a 4gate hits with a 1rax FE, so even if you have bunkers, he just kills like 7 scvs and a couple marines without losing anything other than zealots, warps in a wave of zealots, and kills you with 5 zealot 6 stalker. He just reinforces way faster than you and you don't kill anything on low ground. Maybe I'm just doing something horribly wrong, but 4gate just hits so hard and fast that even when scouted you can easily die with 1rax FE if you fuck up at all.
Anyway, with all due respect to the OP and his efforts - from the writing of the guide, it's pretty clear you're in a low league (<diamond). This doesn't necessarily make it a bad guide, but this is mostly a "learning build" - and even then, I don't see the point of the earlier gas. Is it because you want to put only one SCV on gas? You can accomplish the same thing with 2 SCVs on gas on a 13 gas if you really want - you can just take SCVs off gas as you need. There's literally no point to the early gas, you only want to use gas first if you actually want to tech faster, otherwise it's better to get the gas later and put another SCV on temporarily. Any way you do it, this build isn't a solid standard build at higher levels, and you will simply almost never see 4gate - I know, lower league players often lament that "they can never get away with pro builds" but there is a reason for that. Pro players have excellent crisis management and can make the most of every defense advantage, and also always make good decisions. In any case, good effort, and I suppose it can be of help to players under diamond (although again, the gas first seems silly to me).
After reading the build a little more carefully - it also seems like you're basically just delaying stuff needlessly to get a faster CC, which you can do with the standard build too - just cut units. But that basically defeats the purpose of the build, as your build will be hopelessly crushed by a 20 nexus (or earlier) standard FE, especially if they follow it up with a forcefield-heavy 6-7gate - your medivacs will either be late, or your army will be small, or your stim will be late. Basically, this build was great a year or two ago when protosses didn't know they could expand and not die to marauder pressure.Last edit: 2012-08-13 14:31:32 |
| "Spirit Walk in, Spirit Vessel out." - crzytimes | Teamliquid Staff Writer
Quantic.Pokebunny | Pokebunny.703 | quanticgaming.com | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | |
|
|
| FataLe New Zealand. August 13 2012 14:32. Posts 3622 | Profile # |
On August 13 2012 14:03 Smoot wrote:
He is silver. I'm trying to give a good rule of thumb by saying that if Toss hasn't expo'd than some sort of 1 base play is coming. Whether it be proxy air, 1 base colo, or 3 gate pressure into expo, he needs extra defense. As it was explained, he would hang out with 1 bunker and bring some SCV's hoping Toss wouldn't FF to deny repair.
ah didn't spot he was silver, yea your explanation makes far more sense than mine at this point sorry. |
| |
|
| Yoshi Kirishima United States. August 13 2012 14:36. Posts 9002 | Profile Blog # |
On August 13 2012 14:19 FataLe wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 14:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On August 13 2012 14:03 Smoot wrote:
He is silver. I'm trying to give a good rule of thumb by saying that if Toss hasn't expo'd than some sort of 1 base play is coming. Whether it be proxy air, 1 base colo, or 3 gate pressure into expo, he needs extra defense. As it was explained, he would hang out with 1 bunker and bring some SCV's hoping Toss wouldn't FF to deny repair.
I agree with what Smoot said. Saved up chrono and cutting probes doesn't mean it has to be a 4 gate, especially in lower levels where their builds aren't always optimal. Or perhaps they'll save up their chrono, having a later 4 gate push and deciding not to cut probes. But as long as you know he hasn't taken an expansion and thus realize he's playing 1 base, you are good to go.
On August 13 2012 13:51 FataLe wrote:
On August 13 2012 13:40 Smoot wrote:
You hold 4 gates with a one rax expo by scouting and realizing that protoss has not expo'd at a reasonable time. Once you realize 1 base play is coming, you can put down another bunker (or 2 to be safe) and fill them up with marines, pull SCV's to repair. Even if you misread and see he has a late expo, you can simply salvage the bunker and you are out 25minerals.
4 gate does not beat 2-3 bunkers with SCV's Repairing.
And if you keep finding yourself with 1 bunker and lose to a 4 gate because you didn't get a good scout, then scan until you get better at scouting and reading the info.
what. just spot chrono usage and probe production. no need for any of that when you can narrow the build down to only 4 gate.
What do you mean "no need for any of that"? 2-3 bunkers is how you stop 4 gate.
what i mean is his scouting. you're not narrowing builds down at all if you only scout for expo timing. He could be blink rush + proxy robo obsing you, he could be void ray all inning you, he could be dt rushing you he could be immortal busting you. Let's be more specific and narrow it down to one build so you know what's coming thus better preparing for it.
Ah. Well even so, it is not such a bad idea to put up 2-3 bunkers at the nat (unless it's a hard map to defend some things like shak). To deal with immortal bust, you just put 2 more bunkers up once you scout it. To deal with dt rush, just make sure there are no gaps in your wall until you get a turret up. If he's void ray all-inning you, you can leave the bunkers there to stop stalker/zealot from breaking the front. If he's blink rushing you, yes he can get around the bunkers but after you salvage them you only lose 50 mineral (keeping 1 bunker at the front).
Edit:
On August 13 2012 14:32 FataLe wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 14:03 Smoot wrote:
He is silver. I'm trying to give a good rule of thumb by saying that if Toss hasn't expo'd than some sort of 1 base play is coming. Whether it be proxy air, 1 base colo, or 3 gate pressure into expo, he needs extra defense. As it was explained, he would hang out with 1 bunker and bring some SCV's hoping Toss wouldn't FF to deny repair.
ah didn't spot he was silver, yea your explanation makes far more sense than mine at this point sorry.
Oh, kk.
On August 13 2012 14:21 Pokebunny wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 14:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On August 13 2012 14:03 Smoot wrote:
He is silver. I'm trying to give a good rule of thumb by saying that if Toss hasn't expo'd than some sort of 1 base play is coming. Whether it be proxy air, 1 base colo, or 3 gate pressure into expo, he needs extra defense. As it was explained, he would hang out with 1 bunker and bring some SCV's hoping Toss wouldn't FF to deny repair.
I agree with what Smoot said. Saved up chrono and cutting probes doesn't mean it has to be a 4 gate, especially in lower levels where their builds aren't always optimal. Or perhaps they'll save up their chrono, having a later 4 gate push and deciding not to cut probes. But as long as you know he hasn't taken an expansion and thus realize he's playing 1 base, you are good to go.
On August 13 2012 13:51 FataLe wrote:
On August 13 2012 13:40 Smoot wrote:
You hold 4 gates with a one rax expo by scouting and realizing that protoss has not expo'd at a reasonable time. Once you realize 1 base play is coming, you can put down another bunker (or 2 to be safe) and fill them up with marines, pull SCV's to repair. Even if you misread and see he has a late expo, you can simply salvage the bunker and you are out 25minerals.
4 gate does not beat 2-3 bunkers with SCV's Repairing.
And if you keep finding yourself with 1 bunker and lose to a 4 gate because you didn't get a good scout, then scan until you get better at scouting and reading the info.
what. just spot chrono usage and probe production. no need for any of that when you can narrow the build down to only 4 gate.
What do you mean "no need for any of that"? 2-3 bunkers is how you stop 4 gate.
Honestly, as of late I've found the best way to deal with 4gate is to simply lift and hold the ramp. I don't face it often, but when I did (and scouted it) I was just like "lol np 3 bunkers and repair gg". The problem is that protoss units just don't die fast enough to the ~7 marines you will have when a 4gate hits with a 1rax FE, so even if you have bunkers, he just kills like 7 scvs and a couple marines without losing anything other than zealots, warps in a wave of zealots, and kills you with 5 zealot 6 stalker. He just reinforces way faster than you and you don't kill anything on low ground. Maybe I'm just doing something horribly wrong, but 4gate just hits so hard and fast that even when scouted you can easily die with 1rax FE if you fuck up at all. Anyway, with all due respect to the OP and his efforts - from the writing of the guide, it's pretty clear you're in a low league (<diamond). This doesn't necessarily make it a bad guide, but this is mostly a "learning build" - and even then, I don't see the point of the earlier gas. Is it because you want to put only one SCV on gas? You can accomplish the same thing with 2 SCVs on gas on a 13 gas if you really want - you can just take SCVs off gas as you need. There's literally no point to the early gas, you only want to use gas first if you actually want to tech faster, otherwise it's better to get the gas later and put another SCV on temporarily. Any way you do it, this build isn't a solid standard build at higher levels, and you will simply almost never see 4gate - I know, lower league players often lament that "they can never get away with pro builds" but there is a reason for that. Pro players have excellent crisis management and can make the most of every defense advantage, and also always make good decisions. In any case, good effort, and I suppose it can be of help to players under diamond (although again, the gas first seems silly to me). After reading the build a little more carefully - it also seems like you're basically just delaying stuff needlessly to get a faster CC, which you can do with the standard build too - just cut units. But that basically defeats the purpose of the build, as your build will be hopelessly crushed by a 20 nexus (or earlier) standard FE, especially if they follow it up with a forcefield-heavy 6-7gate - your medivacs will either be late, or your army will be small, or your stim will be late. Basically, this build was great a year or two ago when protosses didn't know they could expand and not die to marauder pressure.
Hmm, thanks for your input. After all, lifting into your main doesn't lose you too many resources especially since Protoss is only on 1 base and you won't have your mineral lines near saturated yet anyways, not to mention you have double OC for MULEs, so even though it may be suboptimal, it is much safer, yes? But what if he gets 3-4 sentries and keeps FFing the ramp while expanding? Even if you rush to medivac tech, could he possibly even the game or even be ahead?Last edit: 2012-08-13 14:41:00 |
| | Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again." | |
|
|
| Blazinghand United States. August 13 2012 14:41. Posts 12203 | Profile Blog # |
I'm not sure I fully understand what's so great about going gas first if you're going for 2 rax pressure. In my experience, 2 rax pressure has a couple small variations in terms of what upgrade you get from the tech lab, how you transition, what you scout, and how you push out-- but the order of building construction is very very set in stone. Some players delay the scout and get the 2nd rax a bit earlier, but that's about it.
2 Rax has the advantage of being very safe from certain protoss attacks, and giving you a lot of units to let you do a micro-intensive push. However, a 1 rax FE is perfectly safe against any sort of 1-base Protoss all-in. Although the protoss all-ins certainly CAN succeed, 1 rax FE does not have build order loss. That being said, a safer slower expand like 2 rax is perfectly appropriate for lower level play.
I understand that you're not super confident in your own abilities, and that's fine, but when you get the chance, even executing this build against an AI would be better than no replays at all. Furthermore, there is a huge abundance of 2 rax type replays online for you to analyze and include in this guide. I'd recommend you take some time and check out how to write build order guides (link), since it seems you have all the components for an excellent guide here (save the replays), and have dutifully tagged it as an [L] guide.
Overall, I'd recommend sticking with 12 rax 13 gas (just because you can put 2 workers or even 3 on if you'd like, and you get to start your units earlier), including replays would be great, and using some formatting, bold, and other font tricks would make this much more legible.
Keep up the good work!Last edit: 2012-08-13 14:43:19 |
| | When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back. |
|
|
| Pokebunny United States. August 13 2012 15:08. Posts 9582 | Profile Blog # |
@Yoshi: that applies really against like a 3 gate expo, or even maybe a 2gas 1base push with 26+ probes, but against a ~20 probe 4gate you will just be way ahead in everything. Double mules means that even if you are contained you can keep up in economy, your medivacs will be out before he has much shit, and he basically has to mass probes, expand, tech, and make sentries at the same time. If he makes 4 sentries that basically means he has no tech by the time you break out.
@Blazinghand: the closest thing to a 1 rax FE BO loss is 4gate blink obs on many maps. Some maps it is holdable, but good luck holding 4gate blink obs on antiga... you are relying on your opponent to make a big mistake. |
| "Spirit Walk in, Spirit Vessel out." - crzytimes | Teamliquid Staff Writer
Quantic.Pokebunny | Pokebunny.703 | quanticgaming.com | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | |
|
|
| 1 2 Next All | |
|
|
|
| |
|
Sidebar Settings...
|
Store
