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| Trang Australia. August 13 2012 22:13. Posts 323 | Profile # |
Please note, this OP was written during patch 1.03. Most principles still apply. Main differences are new viable skill builds, and the option of sacrificing some tankiness for damage through skills or gear. Some discussion about patch 1.04, particularly Rend, starts at page 3.
UPDATE HISTORY
15/08/12: Added Part 4.1 about knowing your gear slot potentials, weighing slots as offensive/defensive/balanced, maximising EHP on a single slot.
17/08/12: Further example elaborating on HP sustain/damage received break even points, linked in Part 3.3.
PREFACE
Hi TLers, my name is Trang. Some of you may recognise me as someone who has lately been quite active on the Barb Builds/Discussion Thread. To my pleasant surprise, against a backdrop of WW/Sprint being flavour of the month, there still seems to be an interest in the what is known as the Tank Barb, 1H+Shield Barb, Sword and Board Barb, or whatever you want to call it! This motivated me to advise my fellow barbs on how to progress down this line. Unfortunately, however, I have lately found myself answering the same questions over and over, not to anyone's fault. I can totally understand how people are discouraged by the prospect of looking backwards though a 118 page thread, just to find information.
This is why today I am creating this thread to put all information on 1H+Shield Barbs in one place, away from the distracting chatter of WW/Sprint Barbs 
Also, sorry about the big walls of text, I’m used to writing in prose (lawyer). But I’ll try my best to present the information effectively through good structure and highlighting key points.
1 INTRODUCTION
1.1 What is the Tanky DPS Barb?
I prefer to use the term Tanky DPS Barb. What is a Tanky DPS Barb? It is more than just a Barbarian which uses a 1-hand weapon and a shield. The philosophy behind a Tanky DPS Barb is as follows: maximise DPS meanwhile being tanky enough to fight uninterrupted and indefinitely without reliance on Fury, Cooldowns or Life on Hit.
- Unlike a WW/Sprint Barb, you do not rely on gimmicky Fury management, high Critical Chance for Overpower, or Life on Hit for sustain.
- Unlike a simple Tank Barb, your only purpose isn’t to simply attract attention away from your DPS-centric party members, since on your own it would take forever to kill anything.
- Unlike Dual-Wield or 2-Hand Barbs, it is not about the fine balance between being able to burst down enemies in time before they kill you first, and/or kiting while waiting for cooldowns like Ignore Pain/Leap --- and you certainly don’t want to be dependent on waiting for Wrath of the Berserker/Earthquake to cooldown before you can burst elites in time.
- Instead, you rely on having a very high EHP (Effective Hit Points) and using Revenge as your primary reliable source of sustain, while maximising your damage potential (in terms of both skills and gear).
As an example, here is my Tanky DPS Barb as it is today (buffed with Warcry, Battle Rage and Enchantress):
Gear: http://i.imgur.com/xrqQe.jpg
Skills: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#WVSRkP!ZVb!accacZ
1.2 Why play the Tanky DPS Barb?
With my current barb, my key stats are as follows (I will explain later why these are the important stats I am focussing on):
- DPS: 48,500
- EHP without block or dodge: 2,135,000
- EHP with dodge, without block: 2,372,000
- EHP with block, without dodge: 3,953,000
- EHP with block and dodge: 4,393,000
My EHP with block is calculated assuming enemies hit for 70K unmitigated damage (ball park average for Act 3 Inferno).
To put the EHP in context, against attacks that cannot be blocked, I can take on average 33 hits before dying. Against blockable attacks, I can take a whopping 62 hits before dying.
Taking out the luck factor of dodge altogether, I can reliably take 30 unblockable hits, and 56 blockable hits. NB For the rest of this post I will assume the absence of dodge, since at 10%, it is a less reliable measure of EHP.
Now let’s take into account Revenge (Provocation). 30% of hits will allow me to use Revenge to get back 5% of my EHP per target. Using the EHP numbers above, 5% EHP is equivalent to 1.5 unblockable hits, or 2.8 blockable attacks. Assuming that I have at least 3 targets within my Revenge range, my Revenge will keep me at full HP indefinitely. Against only one target, I can sustain almost indefinitely if its attacks are blockable.
Of course, these numbers are based on assumptions (such as all attacks being 70K damage unmitigated). Elite affects throw this out a bit. Meanwhile being surrounded by many white/trash mobs makes sustain ridiculously easy.
As you can see the Tanky DPS Barb is super tanky. Mine can take on 3 elite packs at a time. Meanwhile I am dishing out 48.5K DPS with your Frenzy (Sidearm) which does a small AoE, and 220% AoE weapon damage per Revenge. As a Tanky DPS Barb, you also feel pretty badass --- the more enemies you are surrounded by, the more you can stand in the middle and laugh as it becomes easier to sustain off of Revenge.
But why play the Tanky DPS Barb over other builds? Here are some things to think about:
1. You don’t have to wait for 2 minute cooldowns to burst elites.
2. No fury gimmicks. This means you are not useless in a party game.
3. No reliance on defensive cooldowns. This means you can tank for longer in party games without having to kite. This also means lag will not affect you as badly --- just hold down left click, spam right click, and laugh at the thought that you don’t care about the lag.
4. No reliance on Life on Hit to keep your health up. True, you use Revenge. But if you feel like it you can run around like an ass hat and take 30+ hits before engaging, without dying.
5. Not dependent on Critical Hit mechanics. You don’t need to stack the all expensive Critical Hit Chance gear on your armor slots just to stay alive or keep fury up.
6. Not dependent on Attack Speed. Unlike LoH IAS Monks, you don’t care how fast or slow you hit. You can hit slow and hard if you want to be badass, or swing faster if that’s your thing. This opens up your weapon type choices --- ie you are not limited to 1.4 APS Swords, but can also use Spears/Maces etc.
2 STUFF EVERYONE NEEDS TO KNOW
So you decided you want to play a Tanky DPS Barb now. Or you didn’t. Doesn’t matter. This is stuff which everyone needs to know to make the right choices about progressing their character.
2.1 Understand EHP (Effective Hit Points)
You will need to know the relationship between VIT, RES, Armor and %Life on how it affects your EHP. There are numerous useful guides out there. I will not go into it, but I will reiterate that there are no diminishing returns on any of these stats, so if you still think there then I suggest you go and do the research (which unanimously says there are no diminishing returns).
For the Tanky DPS Barb, all that matters in terms of your tankiness is EHP. Not your, total HP, not your All RES, not your Armor, not your Damage Reduction %. EHP, and EHP alone, is the number which determines how many hits you can take before you die in the absence of sustain. As for sustain, in our case, Revenge sustain scales with EHP, unlike LoH for example which scales off Damage Reduction (RES/Armor). Therefore, only EHP matters.
2.2 Understand DPS (Damage Per Second)
That ‘Damage’ number on that character sheet of yours is determined by many factors. Make sure you understand the relationship between Damage (from weapons and other gear), STR, AS (Attack Speed), CC (Crit Chance), CD (Crit Damage). Keep in mind that contrary to what anyone else might say, there is no single stat that will always be the better one to stack for everyone’s situation at every stage of their gear development. There seems to be a Crit Damage addiction as of late, and everyone prioritises a socket on a weapon when simply more flat Damage or STR would do a better job for the same price. So for us Tanky DPS Barbs, all that matters is the ending DPS stat as shown on your character sheet.
There is one small qualification, in that slower AS for the same DPS will mean harder hitting Revenges, but it’s a small point which you don’t have to worry about too much.
As for Crits, none of our mechanics rely on CC, so there is no need to prioritise it if the DPS is the same. Keep in mind though, that as you stack more CC and CD, they synergise for large DPS increases, so you might consider this for the long term.
2.3 Use a EHP/DPS Calculator
Ever had a situation looking at the AH, thinking ‘hmm I don’t know if this is better or not’? Ever seen the many many posts on forums saying ‘Is this item X or item Y better’? For the latter question the best answer is always ‘it depends on the rest of your gear’. Not everyone’s gear is the same, so the quality of one item depends on what your overall stats are based off your other gear. Please, use a calculator. They will also give you a better understanding of how EHP/DPS increase with other stats.
Here is the calculator I use: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4797101607?page=2#24
EDIT: 2.4 Know Gear Slot Potentials
I am covering this in Part 4.1 under GEAR, but this is stuff that everyone needs to know. So I'm putting a note of it here. Every class and build can benefit from knowing this.
3 OVERALL APPROACH TO THE TANKY DPS BARB
Okay now we’re getting into the meat. Here is my overall approach to progressing a Tanky DPS Barb.
3.1 Tank first, build DPS later
As stated previously, a Tanky DPS Barb wants to be able to attack continuously without needing to kite. Therefore, you need to be sufficiently tanky first. Then afterwards, you can build your DPS to kill faster. Do not try to do it the other way. I have seen many barbs with 30-40K DPS, but very low EHP, and they say they struggle to kill Act 3 elites before enrage timers. Meanwhile, in my Barb's early days I could kill Act 3 elites before the enrage timer with under 20K DPS. Why? Because I was able to attack continuously, without wasting any time kiting.
You first need to build your EHP so that you can tank Act 3 comfortably. I don’t know how much is the minimum, but I imagine about 1,500K EHP will make you comfortable for the majority of situations in Act 3/4. (Edit: this is just a ballpark figure, not a rule. The EHP you need will depend on your Skill build too, which is covered below. So you can probably get away with less, but since I didn't start measuring my EHP until I was already past 1,500K I don't know how much less). You want to be able to stand in the centre of a crowd of white monsters and be able to survive for a minute without relying on much more than Revenge. If you can’t do this, you won’t survive the harder elite fights. Abilities like Leap/Furious Charge/Ignore Pain are only there to save you in a tough situation (walled into arcane beams, or you are really unlucky with Revenge procs). You can’t rely on them as your primary tanking skill because of their cooldowns.
As for Shields and Block Chance, it deserves it's own section, so I have a section on that in the Part 4 which focuses on Gear.
3.2 Every bit of EHP makes a difference
Every little bit of EHP can make a real difference. You might have worked this out when reading my discussion above about the calculated number of hits I can take, and EHP worth of hits I sustain back through Revenge.
Here’s another way of putting it, and I’m making up numbers here to illustrate the point. Say you have 40K HP, and your EHP is such that you take 5000 damage a second, but your Revenge gives you back 4000 life a second. You are at a net loss of 1000 damage a second. You will die in 40 seconds. Now, let’s increase your EHP by 10% (often achievable with just one slot upgrade). You now take only 4545 damage a second, and you heal back 4400 life per second through Revenge. Your net loss is now 145 damage a second --- you can now survive for 4-5 minutes. Pretty big change for one item slot huh?
EDIT: a more elaborate example demonstrating this idea of a HP/Damage break even point here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360185¤tpage=2#23
3.3 Skills depend on your gear and playstyle
The only skills that I consider to be mandatory are Frenzy (Sidearm), Revenge (Provocation), War Cry (Impunity), Nerves of Steel. I think they are self-explanatory. So you have 3 active skills and 2 passives left. You will try to squeeze in as much offense as you can with the rest of the abilities, but there’s only so far I would go, which I will explain below.
A FULL tank build would use Frenzy, Revenge, War Cry, Threatening Shout, Furious Charge (Dreadnought), Leap (Iron Impact)/Ignore Pain (Ignorance is Bliss) with Nerves of Steel, Tough as Nails and Superstition.
As your gear becomes more tanky, you can gradually switch out abilities for DPS.
First offensive skill I would add is Wrath of the Berserker (Insanity). The extra damage, and immunity for Crown Control effects, are crucial to taking down difficult elites before taking too much damage. Next, I would add Berserker’s Rage (Marauder’s Rage) for the extra 30% DPS. As far as DPS skills go for a Tanky barb, I think those two are sufficient. You still want one defensive skill for when you get into tough spots. Which skills to favour out of Threatening Shout, Furious Charge, Leap and Ignore Pain are your own personal preference. I personally like Furious Charge for the extra sustain and ability to reposition/disengage.
As for passives, the first to drop is Superstition, and then Tough as Nails. I would probably drop Superstition for Ruthless before dropping one of my defensive skills for Berserker's Rage. Also, personally, I find that Weapons Master does not provide a big enough DPS increase to make it worthwhile to drop Tough as Nails.
A few notes on other skills that I don’t like in spoilers:
Brawler:
+ Show Spoiler + I do not rate Brawler at all. Sure you will often find yourself surrounded by many mobs. But the hardest battles are those where you are up against Elites without any extra trash mobs. If there are many mobs around, Revenge should get you through the fight. When there are no trash mobs around, you want maximum single target DPS so you can kill it before your Revenge sustain is not able to keep up.
Maniac rune on Frenzy:
+ Show Spoiler + Ok, so given that many people do not agree on Sidearm v Maniac, I've looked into it a bit more. Firstly, there are varying reports about whether the Sidearm axe grants extra LoH or not: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4888178773. It may be bugged, nobody seems to knows for sure. I can't tell you either way because I don't use LoH. Secondly, here is a thread with discussion on the pros and cons of Sidearm and Maniac: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4848675017I think it summarises well the different arguments people are making. It appears from this that Sidearm and Maniac are within the same ball park. Differences in effectiveness probably depend on your setup of gear and other skills. Anyhow, these are my reasons for me using Sidearm. 1. A reliable 27.5% dps boost on a single target, that does not depend on getting Frenzy stacks. Keeping Frenzy stacks might sound trivial, but if you think about it, the hardest fights are those elite fights where they kite you a lot and/or throw down effects that you have to kite (eg Frozen/Arcane etc). In these fights expect to lose your stacks often. Why are you trying to boost your ability to clear lots of trash mobs (which frankly you can just ignore and run past since you are a Tanky Barb), when you should be focussing on making the hardest fights easier (these are the important fights too since they drop the loot!). In these difficult fights, you're really looking more realistically at an average of 10-15% damage boost from Maniac. 2. Since I'm a Tanky Barb my only 2 sources of damage are Frenzy and Revenge, so Maniac is boosting only Revenge. Revenge damage is nice, but I don't rely on it for damage, so I don't consider boosting it with Maniac a big deal. Like I said before, the hardest fights are those ones with just elites, and so your Revenge won't proc all that much. In addition with those kiting elite mobs, your Revenge probably will only manage to hit one target at a time. In these difficult fights, do I want a 10-15% overall damage buff or a solid 27.5% boost that can sometimes hit targets that aren't in range of your Revenge too. 3. Sidearm helps clear those annoying ranged mobs, so you don't have to go chasing them as much.
3.4 Life on Hit is nice, but don’t rely on it
Everyone that says you need X minimum LoH to tank Act 3 is just stating their own personal story of how they did it. LoH isn’t the only way through. If you have sufficient EHP, Revenge with the occasional Furious Charge will be enough sustain to keep you alive. Think of LoH merely as reducing the EHP bar you need to reach to tank Act 3 (think back to the way I talked about net HP loss per second in Part 3.2). But consider this for a moment. Once you are sufficiently tanky, you will be replacing gear for more DPS.
Here's an example. Is it easier to replace an amulet with 100 STR and 200 VIT for an amulet with 200 STR and 200 VIT, or to replace an amulet with 100 STR, 100 VIT and 300 LoH for an amulet with 200 STR, 100 VIT and 300 LoH. You guessed it, the upgraded LoH amulet is WAY more expensive.
Another example, you have a 1H 800 DPS sword. And now you want more DPS. Well, getting a 950 DPS 1Hander with 300 LoH is going to cost you as much as it costs you to just get a 1050 or 1100 DPS 1Hander without LoH.
Moral of the story: LoH is always welcome, and certainly nice. But do NOT rely on it to tank, because once you do this it will be much more expensive to replace gear for more DPS.
3.5 Adding DPS --- Skills first, STR second, Crit last
Okay, so you can tank Act 3 now, but you kill things kind of slowly. How do you approach increasing your DPS?
First, tweak your skills, using the method described in Part 3.3. Why? First, it costs nothing, and you can tweak as much as you want through trial and error to see how much DPS you can get away with. Secondly, you will eventually be working towards a balanced tanky/DPS skill set up (something like my skill set up). Consider again Part 3.1: tank first, DPS later. If you know you can tank effectively with a balanced skill set up, then you know that any further items you buy to increase DPS will not reduce your tanking ability provided it maintains your current EHP. If, however, you change gear before skills, and you spent millions of gold to have 25k DPS with a full tank skill setup, and you decide you want to work towards that 40k DPS, then guess what --- you might find with your new skills that you are no longer able to tank, and you have to replace all your gear AGAIN.
After you have a balanced skill setup, next is gear. I did say STR then Crit (Chance and Damage), but really this is just a guideline. Whatever you can get your hands on is good. However, keep in mind that generally speaking, armor with VIT/RES/STR is easier to come by than VIT/RES/less STR/CC for the same price. DPS calculators will help you work out how best to increase your DPS. Keep in mind also that STR does increase your Armor. Cost and Armor are the reasons why I suggest STR as your first goal.
As for attack speed, it is nice, but don't give it any special treatment over a similar DPS increase from STR or Crit. Why? Revenge, which is a great source of AoE damage, does not scale off IAS. So it's nice, but not necessary.
4 GEAR, GEAR, GEAR
Yeah yeah, we know this game is all about gear. So I’ve taken some extracts from the Barb thread to demonstrate some of my principles in practice. I put each part in spoilers to reduce clutter.
Shields --- Block Chance is King --- Sacred Shields, Stormshield, Helm of Command, Justice Lantern, etc:
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 19 2012 02:16 Trang wrote:
5. Block chance is king: Bonus block chance is really big. You are a 1H + Shield user. Why would you not try to maximise your block chance? You may as well get 50% extra dps as a 2hander if you aren't utilising your shield. The effect of block chance is hard to quantify from the character sheet alone. However, my experience, and the experience of many others shows that it makes a HUGE difference. You want all the block chance you can afford.
Buy a shield with high block chance and decent ALL RES. They are not expensive. Do NOT waste money on a Storm Shield, they are overpriced and their block amount is lower than the Sacred Shield. Get ONLY a Sacred Shield (iLvl 63). Start out with a 20% block chance with 70+ Res Sacred Shield. 20% is the highest natural block chance without any +%block attributes on the shield. These should be dirt cheap. Once you have more cash, try to get a higher block chance (27 to 29% is great) and then extra attributes like STR/VIT/CRIT once you have even more money (but these are expensive).
Helm of Command is so easy to get that it should be mandatory. One with average, but still useful, roles is cheap (meaning VIT with a bit of STR, or maybe a socket). Justice Lantern is very expensive, but if you can afford one, get one, though I would only try to get one once you are at the stage where you are thinking about trading tankiness for DPS --- since before that point you really just need to focus on maximising that EHP for as cheap as possible.
Additional notes: I now use this calculator to take into account block chance: http://rubensayshi.github.com/d3-ehp-calculatorEvery extra 1% block chance gives me 75K more EHP against blockable attacks. This is HUGE, and is the reason why I still run with a Justice Lantern. Now below, some discussion regarding Storm Shield and Justice Lantern. Feel free to form you own opinion on it!
On July 21 2012 06:21 BlueBird. wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 02:50 Trang wrote:
On July 20 2012 21:36 BlueBird. wrote:I like your sword and shield guide, however I'd like to comment on storm shield... Stormshield isn't really overpriced, according to the ehp calculator I was using, block amount difference between a sacred and a stormshield doesn't matter whatsoever when i take a 70k hit(avg hit from act 3 mobs). Also you can't block the things that can actually kill you in act 3, molten, firechains, plagued etc. 5% elite reduction(extremely extremely important) and all resist and high block chance, make stormshield a really really cost effective item for survivability, especially if you get good dps stats on it. I have not seen a sacred under 50 mil that compares on an ehp calculator to my 8% crit stormshield, and have only seen a few above 100 million, the reason to go for a sacred is actually for crit + magic find + high resist + str/vit + good elite reduction + 7+block chance on the same piece, which you sadly can't get on a stomshield, so if your going for the best best best end game gear stormshield is not it, you can get much much better sacreds, I just haven't seen any of them on the ah, I think I saw a really good one for 180 mil once  . Considering my stormshield with 8 crit was only 30 mil, and I think they are cheaper now, I got a pretty damn good deal. Helm of command is good, it can have good stats for a barb and that block chance is great. Justice Lantern is just awful now, I don't recommend anyone ever getting one of these, they might be good defensively, but you can't block the stuff that can actually kill you, and the low ilvl of the ring makes it awful for dps stat rolls, which the ring is a great place to get.(low attack speed, low crit dmg, low crit chance, low min/max dmg, low resist rolls even) Basically I don't think people should be rocking justice lantern anymore. Only unique rings really worthwhile is skull grasp, and well rolled bul kathos)
Interesting post, and it motivated me to do some extra research on the numbers. I really like to have open discussions on this stuff! Below are a few of my thoughts after reading yours. Please note, my numbers are based off my own gear (ie EHP). Stormshield - block amount: Yes, it seems that if Act 3 mobs do on average around 70k damage a hit, then with my current gear (97% total damage reduction) the higher block amount of a sacred shield is wasted. Harder hitting mobs will mean there is some benefit from the higher block amount of sacred shields, but its small. So very good point you made here! Stormshield - elite damage reduction, and unblockable damage: Yep, I agree with your point how the main threat is elite damage, and often the dangerous stuff like Molten is not blockable. However, an elite damage reduction of 5% for me amounts to only an extra 120k EHP for me (from 2180k to 2300k). So it is useful if you can afford it, but not huge. To put it in perspective though, a typical Storm Shield will have 1000 Armor (+ extra 80 from STR) and 65 RES. Compared to a sacred shield with 1150-1200 Armor and 75-80 RES, thats an EHP decrease of around 60k for me. So the increase from 5% elite damage reduction is a measely 60k for me (or 2.7%), which is only equivalent to 40-45 VIT for me. Nice but not big. Let's continue the analysis Stormshield - cost: However, I'm not convinced that the Storm Shield is more cost effective. A 27% block sacred shield with 75 All Res will go for 1M. A 27% block chance Storm Shield will cost a lot more than that, probably 10M+, definitely no less than 5M. Adding some crit on these shields, the Sacred Shield will cost you 5-10M, meanwhile the SS would be easily 20M+. Of course the Storm Shield has the extra 80 STR too, but I have my other gear slots for STR, I want to maximise my block/crit with my shield. Block % cost effectiveness: My EHP calculators tell me that each 1% block chance gives me about 76k EHP against blockable attacks. This is huge. This means that a 27% block chance sacred shield with 75 RES which goes for 1M is WAY more cost effective against blockable attacks than the cheapest 3-4M Storm Shield with only 19-21% block. Against unblockable attacks, then yes Storm Shield is better, but only slightly as discussed above, and I reckon for the extra cost you can just get 50 VIT on your shield and it will fill in the gap against unblockable attacks AND give you a higher %block chance for blockable attacks. Justice Lantern: Considering that 1% block = 76k EHP for my gear, that's 836k extra EHP against blockable attacks from the 11% block chance of the justice lantern alone. Then there's the extra 100 Armor and 60 VIT. As far as defence goes, it's a hugely cost effective in terms of item slot use. 15-20M gold for 900K extra EHP on a single item slot is pretty good. And hey, at least it's not 40M+ like a Skull Grasp!.
I can see what your saying about the cheap sacred being really cost effective, 1 mil is a nice cost. But I think stormshield is still a great go to shield in between that one and an insane sacred. Maybe I'm asking too much from sacred but on NA there are zero I'm interested in with crit, mf, all resist search. All resist + crit chance + block chance search doesn't leave me with any results either ;/. I still can't get behind justice lantern, mobs just don't hit me hard enough for me to care about 900k ehp vs non elemental damages(even though 900k ehp is pretty damn insane for 1 piece of gear). If it gave you 900k ehp vs molten or something then i can see it being worth a slot(no questions asked), but I'd much rather have an all resist + vit + offensive stats in that slot. I think if your comfortable with this much ehp then it's ok, but I'd work on transitioning away from it so you can farm even faster, but feel just as comfortable.
Reiterating the principle of Tank before DPS + comments on prioritising Physical/Fire over other Resistances:
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 30 2012 11:37 Trang wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 08:11 CruelZeratul wrote:
Which Barbarian skills can break a jail?
Also furious charge, which is a much lower cool down, heals you and repositions you Only WotB breaks frozen though 
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 10:17 javy925 wrote:
On July 30 2012 09:34 CruelZeratul wrote:
I thought as a Barb you would want very high life on hit, which your weapon does not provide.
you can beat the game without any life on hit. I did it fairly easily without any (though I had some lifesteal)
Agreed, LoH/Life Steal/Life Regen are not necessary per se. Think of Revenge as your primary source of sustain, and these stats only supplement the Revenge sustain you already have. In this sense, they lower the bar you have to reach in terms of EHP in order to tank for long enough, but if your EHP is sufficiently high you won't need them. Boss fights like Diablo/Ghom where your Revenge hardly ever procs are an exception though, because an inexpensive amount of LoH will go a long way to making those fights easier --- so just have a weapon and amulet on switch for that.
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 09:23 iLLusive wrote:Trang I actually based my build on your post because I really wanted to get comfortable with the class before I went deep into more of a 2 hand / DW DPS flavor of the month spec. So THANK YOU for the help your post provided but yes as you can see I have just hit Act 3 sadly did not get credit for Belial kill so going back to redo that tonight SIGH. So overall want to look at affordable upgrades on a budget. Here is my stats and weapon if you need anything more specific let me know but I already posted stats on my gloves / belt / shoulders as well. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HMcZq.jpg) Really enjoy the Barb community and feedback I have been getting you folks have really made the switch to Barb very enjoyable for me. Also keep in mind I have only been 60 for a couple days so I am still very much so learning everything.
You took your weapon off on your screenshot so looks like you have no DPS It's ok, you mentioned you have around 25k in your previous post anyway. Alright, so 25k dps is pretty good for where you're at. I was farming Act 2 fairly comfortably with lower DPS than that, and able to solo until the end of inferno on something like 15k. This might sound a bit strange, but you will need more tankiness to kill faster. It makes sense when you think of it the following way. There's your character sheet DPS, and your actual DPS. If you are kiting half the time, you are actually doing half the DPS shown on your character sheet. If you are tanky enough you will be able to dish out the full amount of DPS without interruption. You want to aim to be able to keep attacking while standing in one elite effect, like Plague or Molten. This way you will be able to take down elites with much less interruption, and with 25K DPS you should be able to take down some or all of a pack within your WotB (in Act 2 anyway). Being able to tank 2 or more effects at once is what you're aiming for eventually, but right now at least be able to tank one effect. Skills: Can't see your passives right now, but looking at your Armor it looks like you have dropped either Nerves of Steel or Tough as Nails? I certainly would keep both Nerves of Steel and Tough as Nails at the moment. Use Superstition if you feel elite effects are really messing you up badly, otherwise Ruthless. Gear: Your STR is pretty good, you don't need more right now. It's actually your VIT/RES that are lagging behind. Some more Armor would always be nice too. I would say concentrate on increasing the VIT/RES/Armor on your gear slots without sacrificing STR, and worry about Crit later once you have about 1400-1500 STR and VIT, 10K+ Armor buffed (easier to achieve with both Armor passives), and 800+ RES buffed. These are just ball park figures, extrapolating from what I have now and based off my fuzzy memory. When gearing, take note of which Armor slots favour what stats. Finding high VIT is easy on Chest and Pants. Edit: I just noticed your Crit chance is very good already. You don't need more right now If you can't achieve a higher All RES without spending too much, prioritise Physical and Fire. Most damage dealt to you is physical, and most nasty elite effects are fire. Just remember to pay extra attention to dodging Arcane Enchanted. In my honest opinion Plague/Electrified aren't real threats on their own, and Frozen is only deadly for the lock rather than damage. So having your current All RES but 900 buffed in both Physical and Fire will also work. It will all depend on what good buys come up on the AH at the time. Also consider getting a Helm of Command. The block chance will make a difference. I would aim for some STR, good VIT and a socket. It doesn't need RES. It'll be cheaper to find a HoC with 150 VIT than one with 80 VIT and 50 RES and the EHP is about the same on both. The socket is the most important, with a Star Amethyst (500k) thats 15% life, which is worth over 150 VIT on it's own in terms of EHP. Of course extra Armor is nice, but not as high priority as the other stats on your HoC. On the subject of block chance, see if you can snag yourself a Sacred Shield (iLvl 63) with 70+ RES and 27-29% block. Just a blue one will do, you only need to search for RES and +% block. It will only cost you between 200k - 1M depending on the block amount, and your luck. If you really are on a budget, you can settle for 25% block for 100k or lower. Hope this helps
Importance of movement speed on your boots, dealing with kiting mobs, illusionists and nightmarish:
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 30 2012 11:51 Trang wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 03:52 pedduck wrote:
I am playing sword and board and after 40-50m gold in new gear I still having difficulty farming act 3. I can kill like 70% of the elite except for the pack that run away and have illusionist affix. The pack that has fear or nightmarish or knock back also causing a lot of trouble.
65K hp, 12k armor (with self buff and passive), 950 -1000 resist (after war cry), 30k damage (when 5x frenzy), 47% block.
Each upgrade seems so far far away and I dont think I can afford critical gear even if I sold everything I have. What do you guy do in act3? Do I have to buy cri gear and become tornado barb? What stats does it take for an old school sword and board revenge barb to be able to farm act3?
Your stats are very good! Elite packs that run away will always be annoying. Try your best to corner them. 12% movement speed on your boots will also make quite a difference for these enemies. Personally, I'm willing to sacrifice some VIT/STR to for the movement speed. Also illusionist mobs are a sword and board barb's wet dream most the time, because we can hit them with Revenge for sustain! I do agree the kiting elites with illusionist are extra annoying though. If you aren't already, turn on monster HP bars with numbers. You can use the HP numbers to work out which one is the real one as it always has the most HP. Nightmarish can also be annoying. If you need to, use WotB with Insanity to burst down 1 mob or 2 during the CC immunity. This will then reduce the frequency of the fear coming up. Sorry if I am stating stuff you already know, but hope this helps. One last thing, you said you have 30k DPS with 5x Frenzy. This suggests to me you are using Maniac. Try Sidearm instead. Here's my discussion on how I compare the two runes: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=338323¤tpage=117#2334I would like to add on top of that discussion, if you are having trouble against elite packs that kite, and also illusionists, then Sidearm will be more useful for you than Maniac.
All about the incremental increases, also don’t underestimate solid STR/VIT/RES over things like Crit:
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On August 08 2012 12:50 Trang wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 10:08 iLLusive wrote:So hoping I can get some great input from skyR / Tranq and awesome folks here. So been putting in 90 hour work weeks plus school so not a TON has changed. Please give some feedback on good options to look for upgrades / and yes this is an alt so very new to me. I still have my list of previous detals I got from your post so do not think I ignored them at all. Just want to refresh my current build / gear with new Bnet tool character profile sheet, and see if that allows you to give me even more details. Also I have not really put gear on the helper because I have next to no idea what she needs to wear to help me, honestly. Bnet Profile
You're making progress. At this point in the game, it's mostly about incremental increases. Searching all your slots on AH to see what small upgrades you can find at a good price. At the moment though, there are a few particular slots that jump out at me. First, your chest has no All RES, you're going to want 50+ on those. Also a higher item level armor will get you more base armor, (+Armor affix is even nicer). Don't be afraid to drop a little STR on your Chest, since your Chest is a strong defensive slot since it favours VIT (refer to this page here http://www.d3rmt.com/guides/diablo-3-item-stat-maximum-values/) Your bracers have nice STR and perfect Crit. However, they aren't really helping you tank. It's ok to drop 2% or so Crit Chance so that you can get some VIT or RES. You could even drop it all together to get both VIT/RES. It's your call, play around with the numbers in a DPS/EHP calculator. But remember that as Sword and Board barbs, none of our mechanics depend on Crit Chance. Sure, it gives us more DPS, but it holds no special value compared with STR, provided both give the same DPS increase. Another upgrade could be some extra %Life or VIT on your Shoulders, but I understand if you want to hold onto your MF and it's expensive to get an upgrade there. Shoulders are also a STR slot, so don't feel the need to sacrifice STR for VIT on shoulders. Some VIT on your Amulet might also help. 200 STR/200VIT with some extra stats don't cost too much. Sometimes you'll find one with extra %Life or RES for pretty cheap. I don't know how much it costs to keep MF on it though. Again, keep in mind I run without LoH, and prefer solid EHP increases over small amounts of LoH. 200 VIT is nothing to scoff at, but it's your call if you prefer the LoH. Other than that, it's all about gradual upgrades. Eg, extra VIT/%Life on you Belt, higher Armor on your Helm (or any slot you can find one actually), and better combined STR/VIT/RES on any slot you can afford. Hope this helps. Edit: forgot to look at your weapon. Yes I agree with SkyR, that you want a better weapon. More raw DPS, or socket, either is fine, it depends what you can get at a good price. However, at this stage I think you need to focus on making yourself a bit more tanky --- 27K dps is respectable --- then you can worry about upgrading your weapon later.
Upgrading your weapon --- Hairy lays down the law on Crit Damage addiction + my additional comments:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 08 2012 14:12 Trang wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 13:20 Hairy wrote:
On August 08 2012 12:50 Trang wrote:
Edit: forgot to look at your weapon. Yes I agree with SkyR, that you want a better weapon. More raw DPS, or socket, either is fine, it depends what you can get at a good price. However, at this stage I think you need to focus on making yourself a bit more tanky --- 27K dps is respectable --- then you can worry about upgrading your weapon later.
Beware of the allure of crit damage. People overvalue it, especially on weapons; often sacrificing loads of DPS for crit damage and actually lose out overall. In most cases, raw DPS is king. Please do the maths! Right now he is at 27% crit with battleshout, with 164% increased crit damage. Crits increase his overall damage by 44.3%, ( 100% --> 144.3%) That means crits make up 30.7% of his total DPS ( 44.3 / 144.3 ). If he got a 70% crit gem in it, this increases his crit damage from 164% --> 234%. This means his crit portion of his damage will do 43% more damage than before ( 234 / 164 ) We know that crits are 30.7% of his total DPS, so the DPS increase given to him by a crit gem is 30.7% * 43% = 13.2% A crit gem gives him 13.2% additional DPS.He currently has a 935 DPS weapon. The same weapon, but with a 70% crit gem in it, would give him the exact same DPS as a weapon with 1058 DPS. Guess which is going to be cheaper on the AH?
Yep totally agree with you there about doing the maths. This is why I always reiterate the importance of understanding all the factors that affect EHP/DPS, and using EHP/DPS calculators to compare gear. At the end of the day, all that matters is the end result of how high you can get your key stats (EHP/DPS/%Block for 1H+Shield Barbs) for the best prices you can find at the time. It doesn't matter what stats you use to get there.
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 09 2012 15:33 Trang wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 12:30 iLLusive wrote:
Chest piece needs to be replaced badly.
Since you're aimming for built-in magic find, you'd probably want to replace the pants and belt next to get more magic find. If not those than get a weapon with a socket and stats.
For your enchantress, just put magic find gear + int gear on her.
Thanks for the feedback so question....it might be dumb so sorry in advance. But if I want to focus mostly on STR what do I gain from a weapon with a socket over an item same price with just more pure DPS?
A socket let's you put in a Crit Damage gem, that's 70% Crit Damage for about 600K. As for whether it's better to spend the same amount of gold on a socket or extra flat DPS depends on your current gear and Crit Chance. I'll reiterate the necessity of comparing items with DPS calculators. Nobody's situation is exactly the same, there is no general rule that applies for every case at every stage of gear progress, and you can only know what is better by looking up the numbers for your own character. When reading advice about weapons, keep in mind that there are two primary reasons why people often talk about sockets as being the be all and end all. First, dual wielders prioritise sockets for the huge + Crit Damage. This is true for WW/Sprint barbs especially, where the off-hand damage is not very important, so they value stats over DPS. Secondly, once you are at end game with a 1100+ DPS weapon and decent Crit, for your next upgrade it becomes harder to get a higher raw DPS weapon that will give the same increase as a weapon with the same DPS and a socket (over 1200 DPS on a 1H isn't so common compared with 1100 DPS with a socket). For people who are in either of these situations, the considerations affecting what makes a good weapon upgrade are unlikely to be the same as for you. So be wary, not all advice about weapons necessarily applies to your situation. Again, use a DPS calculator to compare similarly priced weapons with different stats, and you will see for yourself what is best for you right now. In my experience, when I was at a similar stage of gearing, I found it cheaper to get decent DPS + STR on a weapon than to go looking for a socket. Something like ~1000 DPS with ~100 STR, depending on what you can afford. But you can confirm that for yourself Anyway, as stated in a previous post, I still think you need to upgrade some of your armor slots first. Hope this helps.
So you’re comfortable farming Act 2, but not quite Act 3? Here’s an example of a road map of how to progress:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 10 2012 00:34 Kerans wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 15:59 Trang wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
On August 08 2012 18:09 Kerans wrote:Since we're back to the subject of sword&board barbs, anyone care to suggest what to do from here? http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Kerans-2706/hero/1803066I went for some built-in mf quite some time ago, and I'm up to the point where I can farm act 2 without a care in the world, but act 3 is still rough. Res are 828 (cold) to 940 (phys and fire), armor is 8800 (with warcry and enchantress), dps is 36k with battle rage, crit% 32.50 and crit dmg 309% with battle rage. Thank you!
1. I prefer Tough as Nails over Superstition, since most unavoidable damage is physical, and many elite effects can be minimised through proper positioning. 2. I like that you have boosted your Physical and Fire RES higher, it's something I recommend as being a more affordable way of boosting your EHP against the majority of incoming damage. In general, your RES is good, and you don't need to look for more right now. 3. Your Crit stats are good enough, so you don't need to look at upgrading that right now. 4. Consider using an Amethyst in your Helm of Command. If it makes you able to farm Act 3 when you otherwise cannot, it's worth dropping 27% MF for it. 5. What you're looking for are incremental increases to STR/VIT. Any extra Armor is icing on the cake, but not something you should actively search for. At this stage you are thinking of each slot as a combined STR+VIT, and you can convert %Life to its equivalent amount of VIT for the purposes of this tally (in my case its between 12-13 VIT). So aim to increase the combined STR+VIT as much as possible on each slot, without dropping too much RES --- dropping a bit here and there is OK, but you're trying to make progress here, not break even. Eg see if you can get +100 on pants, +50 on gloves, +50 on bracers and so on. Eventually, these increases all add up, and you would have the same Crit/Res, but a large amount more Life and Armor (from STR and Nerves of Steel), and maybe more DPS depending on if you are more STR or VIT heavy. Unfortunately, MF makes it a bit more costly to get these upgrades. You're either going to have to pay the big bucks, or be willing to drop some MF to be able to farm Act 3 for the better chance to get iLvl 63. 6. After you get yourself some more STR/VIT (something like a combined 3000+, give or take depending on +%Life), see if you can get higher raw damage on your weapon. Also don't limit yourself to a socket. A 1100 DPS weapon with STR, might turn out better for the same price --- check all your options on a DPS calculator. 7. Next try to get a Shield with 27% or more block chance, 60+ RES, and some Crit. It won't matter too much if you drop 2% Crit Chance or something, the extra % block chance is huge. I think I worked out for myself that each 1% gave my barb 75K more EHP against blockable attacks. This is the one reason why I have chosen to keep my Justice Lantern, but seems like I'm one of the last people around still running with one. Edit: 8. Try to get some RES on your Chest. Sure you will lose some STR in the process, but that means you can concentrate on making your Right Ring more focussed on VIT/STR/Crit instead of RES. Keep in mind, Chests can get max 80 RES, but rings only 70 RES. Chests also have access to less kinds of affixes than rings, and you can craft 6 affix Chests, making Chests with STR/VIT/RES way more common than STR/VIT/RES Rings. This means that it is easier to find upgrades on your primary stats while maintaining 60+ RES on your Chest than it is to do the same for a Ring. Therefore get RES on your Chest so your Rings can focus on core stats (STR/VIT/%Life) and damage affixes (IAS/CC/CD). Hope this helps
This is just the kind of road map I was hoping for As a matter of fact I just tried going back to Act 3 today, after dropping and Amethyst in the HoC (which I do everytime I try Act 3), getting a sacred shield with 23% block chance and all res (and a little less crit% indeed) and switching Ruthless for Tough as Nails, and things went smooth indeed for pretty much everything which didn't have extra health, some mobs I was even able to almost burst down in a single WotB. Yeah, chest is indeed the next piece of the puzzle, I'll definitely work on that. Thanks again man!
EDIT: 4.1 Know Gear Slot Potentials
One of the most important things for knowing what to prioritise on what gear slots is knowing what every slot can potentially spawn with.
Use this reference page here: http://www.d3rmt.com/guides/diablo-3-item-stat-maximum-values/
You need to know this by heart for the following stats: STR, VIT, RES, %Life, CC, CD, IAS.
OK so let's apply some of these ideas. Each Armor slot favours one Core Stat, except Gloves which have 2 favoured stats, and Bracers which have none. For our purposes, Shoulders and Belts can spawn with 300 STR, and Chests and Pants can spawn with 300 VIT. Every other Armor slot can get only 200 STR/VIT. Rings get 178 of any stat, and Amulets 302 of any stat.
What does this mean? When looking for gear, prioritise high STR on Shoulders/Belts, and high VIT on Chests/Pants, to maximise their potential. Of course, you will try to get good STR/VIT otherwise on these slots and others too, but if you ever wondered why 125 STR and 125 VIT bracers seem so expensive for what you get, this is your answer.
Please note that the below is not intended to be any rule that must be followed. It's only a general guide is as to why it is most cost-efficient to gear in a certain way. If you find a good bargain that is contrary to the analysis below though, go ahead and buy it!
Offensive, Defensive, Balanced Weightings for Gear Slots
Now, I try to think of slots as either offensive or defensive or balanced. Shoulders/Belts are offensive because of the high STR. Chests/Pants are defensive. Helms, well your helm will be a Helm of Command. Bracers/Gloves are up to you, for me Bracers are balanced, and Gloves are more offensive. Boots for me a balanced since I run Sage Seekers for the 12% MS. My Amulet, and Ring (except my Justice Lantern) are balanced to offensive slots. You can see these weightings correlate with the STR/VIT/Crit stats these slots can spawn.
For the purpose of the following discussion, we will assume that 1 RES = 1.5 VIT. The ratio depends on your current gear, and chances are 1 RES < 1.5 VIT, but the round numbers make it easier. We'll also assume that 1%Life = 12 VIT. Again this ratio could change depending on your gear.
Now for a good, but not amazing, item slot with a defensive focus, I try to aim for around 60-80% of the defensive stat potential for the gear, and then 25-50% offensive stat potential. It is the reverse for a slot with an offensive focus. For a balanced slot, I try to get 40-60% for each stat. As you become more developed in gear, you will start to break past these ranges. These numbers are just a rough guideline, and I'll explain why I recommend this approach through examples below:
Example 1 --- Defensive Chests
First let's compare offensive versus defensive weighting for a Chest. Assuming a Chest with 50 RES, it is easier and cheaper to find a Chest with 200 (out of 300) VIT and 50 (out of 200) STR than a Chest with 125 VIT and 125 STR. This is because they are simply more abundant.
Ok so let's get more specific, and look at just the defensive stats. How do I weigh up RES/VIT priorities when searching the AH? Assume 50 STR. A Chest with 50 (out of 80) RES and 180 VIT is cheaper than 70 RES and 150 VIT, and the EHP-worth is about the same. Again, this is because Chests with 180 VIT are more abundant than Chests with 70 RES.
Because of this, you can get a Chest with 60 RES, 175 VIT and 75 STR for under 1M, while a Chest with 70 RES, 125 VIT and 100 STR will cost you more.
Example 2 --- Offensive Belts/Shoulders
Assuming 50 RES, try searching for a Belt with 125 STR and 125 VIT. Now try searching for a Belt with 175 STR and 50 VIT. Which one was cheaper? You bet, the second one. Try the same for Shoulders, you will find the same thing.
Maximising EHP for a Single Slot --- Amulet Example
As I described above, with the Chest example, sometimes it is cheaper to go for mid-range RES to get a higher VIT. Let's look at an example where the difference is more pronounced, the Amulet. For me the Amulet is a balanced to offensive slot. You want good STR, as well as one or a combination of CC/CD/IAS. You also want one or two defensive affixes though --- RES/VIT/%Life.
So let's consider the max defensive stats on your Amulet: 70 RES, 302 VIT, 14% Life. What does this translate to in terms of EHP using VIT equivalents. 105 VIT from RES, 302 VIT, 168 VIT from %Life. Flat VIT is the clear winner.
Many people on the AH don't understand EHP very well, and there tends to be an obsession with RES. You will notice on forum threads people always talk about how much RES they have or need. This is good for us. Guess what, it's easier and cheaper to find 75 VIT than 50 RES on an Amulet. It's easier to find 200VIT than 125VIT+50RES. Use and abuse this.
Further still, and this is something that breaks this 60-80% of potential guideline I was talking about. People undervalue %Life on Amulets for some reason. It is easier to find 80 VIT + 12%Life than 225 VIT or 150VIT + 50 RES. This is significant, because once you are add in the presence of 200 STR with a bit of CC/CD/IAS, then suddenly people realise that an extra 200 VIT is worth of a lot gold too, but people fail to price VIT + %Life together as high as they should be.
5 CLOSING REMARKS
The Tanky DPS Barb may not be as flashy as the WW/Sprint Barb or as bursty as a Dual-Wield/2-Hand Barb, but hopefully I have shown you that what makes the Tanky DPS Barb good is versatility. We’re good solo, but also in parties. Because of our innate tankiness that does not really on LoH, Cooldowns, or Fury gimmicks, we can tackle any situation the enemies throw at us --- swarms of mobs, multiple elite packs, bosses.
If you’re already trying to make a Tanky DPS Barb, good on you, keep persevering and I hope this post has helped you in some way. All the best!
Thanks
TrangLast edit: 2012-09-17 23:46:09 |
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| Kerans Italy. August 13 2012 22:29. Posts 58 | Profile # |
| On behalf of anyone who's trying to get anywhere close to the monstrous amount of EHP you're sporting I take off my hat to you, Trang. Excellent contribution and effort on your part with this thread. |
| | "Walk softly, and carry a big stick" |
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| vol_ Australia. August 13 2012 22:43. Posts 1552 | Profile # |
Thanks for keeping the tank barb fire burning Trang, I will read the whole thing eventually Some of your comments in the barb thread have helped me out a lot thou so thanks.
Pretty jelly of your gear, I am at about 1,500,000 ehp pre block 46% block with 32k dps and 900 LOH.
There are a few elites at the end of act 3 that can kill me with crazy affixes but that is about it. Looking to get rid of my LOH for some more EHP and DPS but I will wait till the patch comes so I can balance my character to accomodate the adjusted difficulty.
The last moster damage nerf saw a huge reduction in tank barbs, this next one will hopefully make 2H builds viable. Looks like shields are gonna get even cheaper and with monsters hitting softer its going to be easier to reach that point where you can facetank 3 packs with good DPS. It's a good time to be a tanky barb!
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| | Jaedong gives me a deep resonance. |
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| Trang Australia. August 13 2012 22:44. Posts 323 | Profile # |
On August 13 2012 22:29 Kerans wrote:
On behalf of anyone who's trying to get anywhere close to the monstrous amount of EHP you're sporting I take off my hat to you, Trang. Excellent contribution and effort on your part with this thread.
Thanks, and you're welcome! Hope you don't mind I used your case as an example for gear advice |
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| Trang Australia. August 13 2012 22:51. Posts 323 | Profile # |
On August 13 2012 22:43 vol_ wrote:Thanks for keeping the tank barb fire burning Trang, I will read the whole thing eventually Some of your comments in the barb thread have helped me out a lot thou so thanks. Pretty jelly of your gear, I am at about 1,500,000 ehp pre block 46% block with 32k dps and 900 LOH. There are a few elites at the end of act 3 that can kill me with crazy affixes but that is about it. Looking to get rid of my LOH for some more EHP and DPS but I will wait till the patch comes so I can balance my character to accomodate the adjusted difficulty. The last moster damage nerf saw a huge reduction in tank barbs, this next one will hopefully make 2H builds viable. Looks like shields are gonna get even cheaper and with monsters hitting softer its going to be easier to reach that point where you can facetank 3 packs with good DPS. It's a good time to be a tanky barb!
You're welcome and yep, I hear ya regarding the patch. I also hope that the 1.4 patch changes to iLvl 61 and 62 weapons will make it easier to find a decent DPS 1-Hand weapon
PS Happy Birthday :DLast edit: 2012-08-13 22:52:24 |
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| trinxified Canada. August 13 2012 23:01. Posts 2588 | Profile # |
| I really like this. I wanted to do this too, but I couldn't find a decent high block% shield, and a decent helm of command for my limited 100 mil (had to re-gear every piece), so I decided to jump on the bandwagon and do WW/Sprint. |
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| Black Gun Germany. August 14 2012 01:31. Posts 3861 | Profile Blog # |
| really a great guide, lots of effort put into this. although i personally prefer builds with a moving attack (aka ww, which only works well in combination with the cookie cutter sprint/ww build...), this is great info, particularly for those guys who are not rich enough to afford all the crit gear for double nado. |
| | "What am I supposed to do against this?" - "Lose!" :-] |
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| vol_ Australia. August 14 2012 22:54. Posts 1552 | Profile # |
On August 13 2012 23:01 trinxified wrote:I really like this. I wanted to do this too, but I couldn't find a decent high block% shield, and a decent helm of command for my limited 100 mil (had to re-gear every piece), so I decided to jump on the bandwagon and do WW/Sprint.
You must be aiming pretty high, I have spent nowhere near 100 mil on my gear and I am farming act 3 |
| | Jaedong gives me a deep resonance. |
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| dadde Italy. August 14 2012 23:13. Posts 249 | Profile # |
| ehy trang!this guide seems wrote for my barb!i m having a lot of problems tanking in act 3 while the rest of my party try to dps (we play inferno always in 4).really good job dude! |
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| Burrfoot August 14 2012 23:30. Posts 848 | Profile Blog # |
| Nice write up, this was what I imagined barb play to be more like before all the wrist-excercisinh WW specs out there. I hated the WW play style mostly other than the fact it was essentially immune to cc the entire time you could keep wrath up. |
| | http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Davlok-1847/hero/1205254 I'm chinese and I farm! |
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| Hairy United Kingdom. August 15 2012 02:30. Posts 1041 | Profile # |
Very nice writeup, and it makes sense given the situation in the barb thread (it felt a little like two conversations were going on at once). I also noticed the quote - cheers
Your playstyle was one that I was initially going for, before I discovered WW/sprint and thought it looked fun. Now that everyone and their mother is WW/sprint I feel a little dirty being yet another of the pack, so I may venture back in this direction. I don't think I'd need to change much gear; probably just a shield, justice lantern and HoC. |
| | Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits |
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| hunts United States. August 15 2012 07:49. Posts 1645 | Profile # |
Nice guide, and nice to see more barbs sticking to the sword and board instead of jumping on the double tornado bandwagon!
Here's my barb, though I don't think my gears quite as impressive. The 1 other barb friend I have that still plays does the double tornado and keeps wondering how I live with 0 life on hit lol.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/hunts-1629/hero/13785460 |
| | "When the cold in my heart leaves it comes to an end, and quietly I'll go to sleep" |
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| Trang Australia. August 15 2012 12:25. Posts 323 | Profile # |
Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that gearing the Tanky DPS Barb is not cheap. The fact that you don't need to stack Crit only makes it more bearable
I think that relying on solid core stats (STR/VIT/RES) though is always a safe bet, and in that respect I think that we are pretty resilient to any adverse effects from future patches. Who knows what the changes to skills in 1.04 will bring to the viability of WW/Sprint Barbs compared to Barbs with solid stats.
Hairy, in terms of switching between the two builds, I guess it depends on your gearing philosophy. If you have good core stats, then it is easy to transition to a Tanky DPS Barb. Good, but not amazing, Shields and Helms of Command are relatively inexpensive (under 2M). The more expensive Justice Lantern is optional, I like it, others don't. If you are Crit heavy though, then you might have to look to drop a bit for more STR/VIT.
It goes the other way too. A 1H+Shield Barb will just have to switch out his Helm of Command/Justice Lantern/Shield for a stat stick off-hand weapon, and helm/ring with CC, and depending on how much CC you already have, swap some VIT for Crit on slots like the gloves/bracers/amulet, and you're good to go.
Hunts, I've had people in game tell me "Lol you have no LoH". I then proceed to run around killing elites without bothering to dodge Arcane/Frozen/Molten explosions/Plague and so on, and they shut up, haha. The funniest is when I kill a bunch of Molten elites, and just loot without caring about the blast, and because they see me stay, they forget about the Molten blast and die trying to loot too.
Nice Barb by the way. One thing I noticed though is that your life would be easier if you squeezed in a little more VIT. One example where you can squeeze in more EHP is your amulet. 52 All RES, will probably be equivalent to roughly 70-75 VIT in terms of EHP (might be more or less for you). It's way easier to find 150-200 VIT than 52 RES on an amulet, seeing as the max VIT on an amulet is 300, while the max RES is 70. +%Life is also another stat that often comes cheap on amulets.
This makes me thinks I should add in a section about knowing your gear slot potentials ... might add it in when I've got more time
Edit: I added in a new section about gear slot potentials and weighing offense/defensive stats on each slot.
Last edit: 2012-08-15 13:32:42 |
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| pedduck Thailand. August 15 2012 13:24. Posts 418 | Profile Blog # |
| Any suggestion in gerneral for the up coming patch? Should I sell my helm of command and justice lattern and buy it back after patch? Thanks |
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| Trang Australia. August 15 2012 13:39. Posts 323 | Profile # |
Pedduck, I'm not the kind of person to speculate. I have no idea what the patches will bring to legendaries to be honest, and whether it will affect our Helm of Commands/Justice Lanterns by a lot. We would have to wait for when Blizzard releases more patch details, but by then any chance for profit would be reduced. But, hey, that's why they call it speculation, you're taking a chance on something you think might happen, but don't know for sure will happen. In my case though, I only paid 2M for my Helm of Command, and 11M for my Justice Lantern. Compared to the expensiveness of upgrading other slots, I won't be too bummed out if I lose a few million in value, since I'm pretty sure solid STR/VIT/RES items will retain good value (relative to other items anyway, we don't know what will happen with systematic market inflation/deflation).
My aversion to speculation is part of why I play a Tanky DPS Barb who relies mainly on the core stats of STR/VIT/RES, since I can say with certainty that these stats will never stop being solid (by contrast IAS stackers got hit hard last patch).
Edit: just read the Blizzard preview on Legendary Item changes. Some legendaries are not being buffed, and Helm of Command is one of them Last edit: 2012-08-15 14:12:12 |
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| vol_ Australia. August 15 2012 19:17. Posts 1552 | Profile # |
On August 15 2012 12:25 Trang wrote:
The funniest is when I kill a bunch of Molten elites, and just loot without caring about the blast, and because they see me stay, they forget about the Molten blast and die trying to loot too.
I love it when this happens haha |
| | Jaedong gives me a deep resonance. |
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 Barrin United States. August 15 2012 21:53. Posts 4206 | Profile Blog # |
Very nice, will show to my bro :DD
What was I doing without maximum stat for each piece list. >.< Glad someone else made it :DD |
| | "It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong." -Voltaire |
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| trinxified Canada. August 16 2012 08:36. Posts 2588 | Profile # |
On August 14 2012 22:54 vol_ wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 23:01 trinxified wrote:I really like this. I wanted to do this too, but I couldn't find a decent high block% shield, and a decent helm of command for my limited 100 mil (had to re-gear every piece), so I decided to jump on the bandwagon and do WW/Sprint.
You must be aiming pretty high, I have spent nowhere near 100 mil on my gear and I am farming act 3
Can I see your gear? Here's mine: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/trinxified-1614/hero/2139049 |
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| Trang Australia. August 16 2012 17:42. Posts 323 | Profile # |
I've spent less than 100 mill on my gear, I worked it out to be around 80M. To be honest, my gear is probably worth a lot more than 100 mill, but I've gotten gear at bargain prices from just being patient on the AH. I don't play so much any more, so my gear changes quite infrequently. But when I was more active I was spending probably 1-2 hours a day on the AH.
Here's a link of how much I paid for my gear: http://i.imgur.com/0jCeP.jpg
Keep in mind, most of this gear was bought a month ago, or earlier even. I've only replaced one slot in the past 2 or 3 weeks.
I've colour coded a bit what I think about the price I paid versus it's worth at the time. It's less about price difference, and more about difficulty of buying though (how quickly do you have to click that buyout button).
Red = Holy shit that was cheap, I only got this because I was the first person to see it.
Orange = Really good deal, probably would have been swept up by someone else within 15 minutes at most.
Blue = Good deal, would have been bought in under an hour I'm sure.
White = I bought these items on bid rather than buy-out. I think I paid a decent price for it.
Some of these pieces would have inflated in price by now, so you probably shouldn't expect to get gear as good for as cheap. But you get the picture that you can get good prices if you patient. If you're lucky you'll get a 'LOL' moment like my Chest piece ... haha.
PS I realise my Gloves, and Rings especially were absurdly cheap for what they have. At the time I got them patch 1.03 had just come out, and not everyone had quite caught on about the value of Crit yet Still, the Gloves/Right Ring were still cheap even without the Crit, which is why I put them in the Red category. My Justice Lantern is worth a ton now for having both CC/CD, however, at the time everyone was looking for Justice Lanterns with STR or IAS, which is why I put it as Orange even though in terms of cost/value it was really bloody cheap.Last edit: 2012-08-16 17:54:10 |
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| Kerans Italy. August 16 2012 17:58. Posts 58 | Profile # |
| Jesus, when you get over 65k HP Revenge becomes a thing of immense beauty... |
| | "Walk softly, and carry a big stick" |
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