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| UndoneJin United States. August 18 2012 04:50. Posts 431 | Profile # |
| Sad news, they have produced good players over the last couple years and seemed to have a good business model. These are the teams that need to start making it if e-Sports is really going to grow much larger. |
| | Heero Yuy - I've been lost since the day I was born ----- You're gonna carry that weight |  |
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| GreEny K Germany. August 18 2012 09:13. Posts 7263 | Profile # |
Too bad, Mike!  Last edit: 2012-08-18 09:17:34 |
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| StarStruck August 18 2012 10:26. Posts 18303 | Profile # |
On August 16 2012 03:43 shinyA wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 03:28 StarStruck wrote:
On August 16 2012 02:13 Vandalo wrote:
On August 16 2012 00:29 testthewest wrote:
On August 15 2012 23:46 dereksmifz wrote:
On August 15 2012 07:19 shinyA wrote:
Look at EG, they got a group of players and then marketed the hell out of them. They made their players into personalities, not recruit personalites and try to make them players.
THIS.
Well, Huk, Thorzain were personalities before. In fact, they rather lost appeal since they joined.
This is unfortunately how I view EG as well, particularly in regards to Huk. Since he left TL and joined EG, I feel like his personality and his results have been shuttered somewhat. That isn't to say that the latest Kingston commercial wasn't a great success. That being said, Incontrol and Idra certainly became personalities after they had the skill, as it should be
Incontrol and IdrA had strong personalities well before EG even picked them up. If you around the BW scene you would know. Key phrases: USA B WAR MACHINE, CLAN 88), IdrA always sounding off on the forums and being all that. Sorry if you weren't following BW or SC2 beforehand but these guys are known by everyone who played BW on a competitive level. Go to any BW website. People know them. They've always spoken out loud on anything and they don't back down. -_- On a related note guys like Lz, Machine, etc. were streaming a lot when people didn't really stream. The live stream feeds started on TL dating way back to the first TSL and you could always find these guys streaming and living together. Perfect match for A.G. wanted. There are valid reasons as to why these guys got picked up as a group.
They weren't that big, the community was tiny. It didn't matter if they were good at sc2 though, EG marketted the hell out of them to where it wouldn't matter how good they were. EG made damn sure that they were going to make money from them, they could have picked any players and done the same to be honest. They were picked before SC2 even came out based on their BW days. No offense to them but Machine and LzGameR weren't that good or known at BW, USA in general wasn't that good, you can say you knew them but I mean it was you and like a thousand other people, max; compare that to now. EG picked up the 'clique' of USA players and knew they were going to everything they could to make money off of them whether they succeeded in the game or not. Proof would be that Machine and Lz haven't had any impressive results, in like forever. It doesn't matter, though. They're more than players and they make money for EG because of it. Skill has very little to do with making money in SC2 right now, and that's why it's so unrealistic to try to make a career out of SC2. If you weren't playing in the beta and marketing yourself then the ship has sailed. Without top tournament results, you're not going to get anywhere really.
You're repeating the same thing as you said before. I'm not even going to bother with explaining the merits of your scale because we're talking about personas and personalities here and this goes way back when.
If you couldn't get a good read on their personalities well before SC2 even came out then that's on you man. No one else but yourself. I've been around not only this community but all the other BW communities and Incontrol and IdrA posted a ton. Heck, BOTH of them joined teamliquid.net very frigging late. Like I said, the only thing EG did was highlight them more. What does EG do? They amplify them more through all the shows and their sponsors plugs and ads. It's a good thing for them and it's sad to see so few teams be able to replicate what they do.
I'm not arguing the fact EG is helping their push because they are. I'm saying these guys would have found success without EG because they put themselves out there all the time. They have the personality to do it whether you like them or not. They're going to chime in.
Before Geoff joined this place you should have seen how much he posted on the other websites. He posts a ton. Just like Greg. They like banter.
Good ol' WGTour. How I miss thee.Last edit: 2012-08-18 10:29:24 |
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| aquanda United States. August 18 2012 10:49. Posts 472 | Profile # |
| Starstruck what is your other alias, since that account you're using was made in 2010. Just curious. |
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| GreEny K Germany. August 18 2012 15:59. Posts 7263 | Profile # |
On August 18 2012 10:26 StarStruck wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 03:43 shinyA wrote:
On August 16 2012 03:28 StarStruck wrote:
On August 16 2012 02:13 Vandalo wrote:
On August 16 2012 00:29 testthewest wrote:
On August 15 2012 23:46 dereksmifz wrote:
On August 15 2012 07:19 shinyA wrote:
Look at EG, they got a group of players and then marketed the hell out of them. They made their players into personalities, not recruit personalites and try to make them players.
THIS.
Well, Huk, Thorzain were personalities before. In fact, they rather lost appeal since they joined.
This is unfortunately how I view EG as well, particularly in regards to Huk. Since he left TL and joined EG, I feel like his personality and his results have been shuttered somewhat. That isn't to say that the latest Kingston commercial wasn't a great success. That being said, Incontrol and Idra certainly became personalities after they had the skill, as it should be
Incontrol and IdrA had strong personalities well before EG even picked them up. If you around the BW scene you would know. Key phrases: USA B WAR MACHINE, CLAN 88), IdrA always sounding off on the forums and being all that. Sorry if you weren't following BW or SC2 beforehand but these guys are known by everyone who played BW on a competitive level. Go to any BW website. People know them. They've always spoken out loud on anything and they don't back down. -_- On a related note guys like Lz, Machine, etc. were streaming a lot when people didn't really stream. The live stream feeds started on TL dating way back to the first TSL and you could always find these guys streaming and living together. Perfect match for A.G. wanted. There are valid reasons as to why these guys got picked up as a group.
They weren't that big, the community was tiny. It didn't matter if they were good at sc2 though, EG marketted the hell out of them to where it wouldn't matter how good they were. EG made damn sure that they were going to make money from them, they could have picked any players and done the same to be honest. They were picked before SC2 even came out based on their BW days. No offense to them but Machine and LzGameR weren't that good or known at BW, USA in general wasn't that good, you can say you knew them but I mean it was you and like a thousand other people, max; compare that to now. EG picked up the 'clique' of USA players and knew they were going to everything they could to make money off of them whether they succeeded in the game or not. Proof would be that Machine and Lz haven't had any impressive results, in like forever. It doesn't matter, though. They're more than players and they make money for EG because of it. Skill has very little to do with making money in SC2 right now, and that's why it's so unrealistic to try to make a career out of SC2. If you weren't playing in the beta and marketing yourself then the ship has sailed. Without top tournament results, you're not going to get anywhere really.
You're repeating the same thing as you said before. I'm not even going to bother with explaining the merits of your scale because we're talking about personas and personalities here and this goes way back when. If you couldn't get a good read on their personalities well before SC2 even came out then that's on you man. No one else but yourself. I've been around not only this community but all the other BW communities and Incontrol and IdrA posted a ton. Heck, BOTH of them joined teamliquid.net very frigging late. Like I said, the only thing EG did was highlight them more. What does EG do? They amplify them more through all the shows and their sponsors plugs and ads. It's a good thing for them and it's sad to see so few teams be able to replicate what they do. I'm not arguing the fact EG is helping their push because they are. I'm saying these guys would have found success without EG because they put themselves out there all the time. They have the personality to do it whether you like them or not. They're going to chime in. Before Geoff joined this place you should have seen how much he posted on the other websites. He posts a ton. Just like Greg. They like banter. Good ol' WGTour. How I miss thee.
You speak about the BW days as if you were there for them, do you have an alternate account? This one is from 2010 |
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| TangSC Canada. August 19 2012 00:52. Posts 1607 | Profile Blog # |
 unfortunate news |
| | Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC |
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| Xeris Iran. August 19 2012 00:58. Posts 16869 | Profile Blog # |
On August 18 2012 10:26 StarStruck wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 03:43 shinyA wrote:
On August 16 2012 03:28 StarStruck wrote:
On August 16 2012 02:13 Vandalo wrote:
On August 16 2012 00:29 testthewest wrote:
On August 15 2012 23:46 dereksmifz wrote:
On August 15 2012 07:19 shinyA wrote:
Look at EG, they got a group of players and then marketed the hell out of them. They made their players into personalities, not recruit personalites and try to make them players.
THIS.
Well, Huk, Thorzain were personalities before. In fact, they rather lost appeal since they joined.
This is unfortunately how I view EG as well, particularly in regards to Huk. Since he left TL and joined EG, I feel like his personality and his results have been shuttered somewhat. That isn't to say that the latest Kingston commercial wasn't a great success. That being said, Incontrol and Idra certainly became personalities after they had the skill, as it should be
Incontrol and IdrA had strong personalities well before EG even picked them up. If you around the BW scene you would know. Key phrases: USA B WAR MACHINE, CLAN 88), IdrA always sounding off on the forums and being all that. Sorry if you weren't following BW or SC2 beforehand but these guys are known by everyone who played BW on a competitive level. Go to any BW website. People know them. They've always spoken out loud on anything and they don't back down. -_- On a related note guys like Lz, Machine, etc. were streaming a lot when people didn't really stream. The live stream feeds started on TL dating way back to the first TSL and you could always find these guys streaming and living together. Perfect match for A.G. wanted. There are valid reasons as to why these guys got picked up as a group.
They weren't that big, the community was tiny. It didn't matter if they were good at sc2 though, EG marketted the hell out of them to where it wouldn't matter how good they were. EG made damn sure that they were going to make money from them, they could have picked any players and done the same to be honest. They were picked before SC2 even came out based on their BW days. No offense to them but Machine and LzGameR weren't that good or known at BW, USA in general wasn't that good, you can say you knew them but I mean it was you and like a thousand other people, max; compare that to now. EG picked up the 'clique' of USA players and knew they were going to everything they could to make money off of them whether they succeeded in the game or not. Proof would be that Machine and Lz haven't had any impressive results, in like forever. It doesn't matter, though. They're more than players and they make money for EG because of it. Skill has very little to do with making money in SC2 right now, and that's why it's so unrealistic to try to make a career out of SC2. If you weren't playing in the beta and marketing yourself then the ship has sailed. Without top tournament results, you're not going to get anywhere really.
You're repeating the same thing as you said before. I'm not even going to bother with explaining the merits of your scale because we're talking about personas and personalities here and this goes way back when. If you couldn't get a good read on their personalities well before SC2 even came out then that's on you man. No one else but yourself. I've been around not only this community but all the other BW communities and Incontrol and IdrA posted a ton. Heck, BOTH of them joined teamliquid.net very frigging late. Like I said, the only thing EG did was highlight them more. What does EG do? They amplify them more through all the shows and their sponsors plugs and ads. It's a good thing for them and it's sad to see so few teams be able to replicate what they do. I'm not arguing the fact EG is helping their push because they are. I'm saying these guys would have found success without EG because they put themselves out there all the time. They have the personality to do it whether you like them or not. They're going to chime in. Before Geoff joined this place you should have seen how much he posted on the other websites. He posts a ton. Just like Greg. They like banter. Good ol' WGTour. How I miss thee.
You post like mentioning WGT is some kinda street cred, lol. iNcontroL has been a part of TL for a long fucking time,lol. |
| | twitter.com/xerislight -- follow me~~ |  |
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| AnachronisticAnarchy United States. August 19 2012 01:25. Posts 2288 | Profile Blog # |
On August 18 2012 15:59 GreEny K wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 10:26 StarStruck wrote:
On August 16 2012 03:43 shinyA wrote:
On August 16 2012 03:28 StarStruck wrote:
On August 16 2012 02:13 Vandalo wrote:
On August 16 2012 00:29 testthewest wrote:
On August 15 2012 23:46 dereksmifz wrote:
On August 15 2012 07:19 shinyA wrote:
Look at EG, they got a group of players and then marketed the hell out of them. They made their players into personalities, not recruit personalites and try to make them players.
THIS.
Well, Huk, Thorzain were personalities before. In fact, they rather lost appeal since they joined.
This is unfortunately how I view EG as well, particularly in regards to Huk. Since he left TL and joined EG, I feel like his personality and his results have been shuttered somewhat. That isn't to say that the latest Kingston commercial wasn't a great success. That being said, Incontrol and Idra certainly became personalities after they had the skill, as it should be
Incontrol and IdrA had strong personalities well before EG even picked them up. If you around the BW scene you would know. Key phrases: USA B WAR MACHINE, CLAN 88), IdrA always sounding off on the forums and being all that. Sorry if you weren't following BW or SC2 beforehand but these guys are known by everyone who played BW on a competitive level. Go to any BW website. People know them. They've always spoken out loud on anything and they don't back down. -_- On a related note guys like Lz, Machine, etc. were streaming a lot when people didn't really stream. The live stream feeds started on TL dating way back to the first TSL and you could always find these guys streaming and living together. Perfect match for A.G. wanted. There are valid reasons as to why these guys got picked up as a group.
They weren't that big, the community was tiny. It didn't matter if they were good at sc2 though, EG marketted the hell out of them to where it wouldn't matter how good they were. EG made damn sure that they were going to make money from them, they could have picked any players and done the same to be honest. They were picked before SC2 even came out based on their BW days. No offense to them but Machine and LzGameR weren't that good or known at BW, USA in general wasn't that good, you can say you knew them but I mean it was you and like a thousand other people, max; compare that to now. EG picked up the 'clique' of USA players and knew they were going to everything they could to make money off of them whether they succeeded in the game or not. Proof would be that Machine and Lz haven't had any impressive results, in like forever. It doesn't matter, though. They're more than players and they make money for EG because of it. Skill has very little to do with making money in SC2 right now, and that's why it's so unrealistic to try to make a career out of SC2. If you weren't playing in the beta and marketing yourself then the ship has sailed. Without top tournament results, you're not going to get anywhere really.
You're repeating the same thing as you said before. I'm not even going to bother with explaining the merits of your scale because we're talking about personas and personalities here and this goes way back when. If you couldn't get a good read on their personalities well before SC2 even came out then that's on you man. No one else but yourself. I've been around not only this community but all the other BW communities and Incontrol and IdrA posted a ton. Heck, BOTH of them joined teamliquid.net very frigging late. Like I said, the only thing EG did was highlight them more. What does EG do? They amplify them more through all the shows and their sponsors plugs and ads. It's a good thing for them and it's sad to see so few teams be able to replicate what they do. I'm not arguing the fact EG is helping their push because they are. I'm saying these guys would have found success without EG because they put themselves out there all the time. They have the personality to do it whether you like them or not. They're going to chime in. Before Geoff joined this place you should have seen how much he posted on the other websites. He posts a ton. Just like Greg. They like banter. Good ol' WGTour. How I miss thee.
You speak about the BW days as if you were there for them, do you have an alternate account? This one is from 2010
According to a pm he sent me a while ago, he managed some people like Day 9 or Tasteless back in the day. |
| | "How are you?" "I am fine, because it is not normal to scream in pain." |  |
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| stratmatt United States. August 19 2012 01:55. Posts 755 | Profile # |
| edit wrong thread Last edit: 2012-08-19 01:55:23 |
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| Torte de Lini Canada. August 19 2012 01:58. Posts 27004 | Profile Blog # |
| Anyone know what KeyHunt will do next? |
| | https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini) |  |
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| GreEny K Germany. August 19 2012 02:26. Posts 7263 | Profile # |
On August 19 2012 01:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 15:59 GreEny K wrote:
On August 18 2012 10:26 StarStruck wrote:
On August 16 2012 03:43 shinyA wrote:
On August 16 2012 03:28 StarStruck wrote:
On August 16 2012 02:13 Vandalo wrote:
On August 16 2012 00:29 testthewest wrote:
On August 15 2012 23:46 dereksmifz wrote:
On August 15 2012 07:19 shinyA wrote:
Look at EG, they got a group of players and then marketed the hell out of them. They made their players into personalities, not recruit personalites and try to make them players.
THIS.
Well, Huk, Thorzain were personalities before. In fact, they rather lost appeal since they joined.
This is unfortunately how I view EG as well, particularly in regards to Huk. Since he left TL and joined EG, I feel like his personality and his results have been shuttered somewhat. That isn't to say that the latest Kingston commercial wasn't a great success. That being said, Incontrol and Idra certainly became personalities after they had the skill, as it should be
Oh really? I might know him then Incontrol and IdrA had strong personalities well before EG even picked them up. If you around the BW scene you would know. Key phrases: USA B WAR MACHINE, CLAN 88), IdrA always sounding off on the forums and being all that. Sorry if you weren't following BW or SC2 beforehand but these guys are known by everyone who played BW on a competitive level. Go to any BW website. People know them. They've always spoken out loud on anything and they don't back down. -_- On a related note guys like Lz, Machine, etc. were streaming a lot when people didn't really stream. The live stream feeds started on TL dating way back to the first TSL and you could always find these guys streaming and living together. Perfect match for A.G. wanted. There are valid reasons as to why these guys got picked up as a group.
They weren't that big, the community was tiny. It didn't matter if they were good at sc2 though, EG marketted the hell out of them to where it wouldn't matter how good they were. EG made damn sure that they were going to make money from them, they could have picked any players and done the same to be honest. They were picked before SC2 even came out based on their BW days. No offense to them but Machine and LzGameR weren't that good or known at BW, USA in general wasn't that good, you can say you knew them but I mean it was you and like a thousand other people, max; compare that to now. EG picked up the 'clique' of USA players and knew they were going to everything they could to make money off of them whether they succeeded in the game or not. Proof would be that Machine and Lz haven't had any impressive results, in like forever. It doesn't matter, though. They're more than players and they make money for EG because of it. Skill has very little to do with making money in SC2 right now, and that's why it's so unrealistic to try to make a career out of SC2. If you weren't playing in the beta and marketing yourself then the ship has sailed. Without top tournament results, you're not going to get anywhere really.
You're repeating the same thing as you said before. I'm not even going to bother with explaining the merits of your scale because we're talking about personas and personalities here and this goes way back when. If you couldn't get a good read on their personalities well before SC2 even came out then that's on you man. No one else but yourself. I've been around not only this community but all the other BW communities and Incontrol and IdrA posted a ton. Heck, BOTH of them joined teamliquid.net very frigging late. Like I said, the only thing EG did was highlight them more. What does EG do? They amplify them more through all the shows and their sponsors plugs and ads. It's a good thing for them and it's sad to see so few teams be able to replicate what they do. I'm not arguing the fact EG is helping their push because they are. I'm saying these guys would have found success without EG because they put themselves out there all the time. They have the personality to do it whether you like them or not. They're going to chime in. Before Geoff joined this place you should have seen how much he posted on the other websites. He posts a ton. Just like Greg. They like banter. Good ol' WGTour. How I miss thee.
You speak about the BW days as if you were there for them, do you have an alternate account? This one is from 2010
According to a pm he sent me a while ago, he managed some people like Day 9 or Tasteless back in the day.
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| Torte de Lini Canada. August 19 2012 02:30. Posts 27004 | Profile Blog # | |
| | https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini) | |
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| KJ-KillJoy Denmark. August 19 2012 02:36. Posts 4 | Profile # |
| A sad day indeed. xSix had a special spot in my heart. Hope all members of the now disbanded team find another place in the scene that fits them. Good luck guys. |
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| Velinath United States. August 20 2012 03:07. Posts 629 | Profile Blog # |
| Aw, sad. I really liked xSix. Hoping for the best for the players. |
| | Mid-gold, trying to hit Plat... :( |  |
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| Ritchie Canada. August 20 2012 22:29. Posts 206 | Profile # |
| Where will Painuser go now??? |
| | After all, we just want to be happy, don't we? | |
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| StarStruck August 21 2012 04:54. Posts 18303 | Profile # |
On August 18 2012 15:59 GreEny K wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 10:26 StarStruck wrote:
On August 16 2012 03:43 shinyA wrote:
On August 16 2012 03:28 StarStruck wrote:
On August 16 2012 02:13 Vandalo wrote:
On August 16 2012 00:29 testthewest wrote:
On August 15 2012 23:46 dereksmifz wrote:
On August 15 2012 07:19 shinyA wrote:
Look at EG, they got a group of players and then marketed the hell out of them. They made their players into personalities, not recruit personalites and try to make them players.
THIS.
Well, Huk, Thorzain were personalities before. In fact, they rather lost appeal since they joined.
This is unfortunately how I view EG as well, particularly in regards to Huk. Since he left TL and joined EG, I feel like his personality and his results have been shuttered somewhat. That isn't to say that the latest Kingston commercial wasn't a great success. That being said, Incontrol and Idra certainly became personalities after they had the skill, as it should be
Incontrol and IdrA had strong personalities well before EG even picked them up. If you around the BW scene you would know. Key phrases: USA B WAR MACHINE, CLAN 88), IdrA always sounding off on the forums and being all that. Sorry if you weren't following BW or SC2 beforehand but these guys are known by everyone who played BW on a competitive level. Go to any BW website. People know them. They've always spoken out loud on anything and they don't back down. -_- On a related note guys like Lz, Machine, etc. were streaming a lot when people didn't really stream. The live stream feeds started on TL dating way back to the first TSL and you could always find these guys streaming and living together. Perfect match for A.G. wanted. There are valid reasons as to why these guys got picked up as a group.
They weren't that big, the community was tiny. It didn't matter if they were good at sc2 though, EG marketted the hell out of them to where it wouldn't matter how good they were. EG made damn sure that they were going to make money from them, they could have picked any players and done the same to be honest. They were picked before SC2 even came out based on their BW days. No offense to them but Machine and LzGameR weren't that good or known at BW, USA in general wasn't that good, you can say you knew them but I mean it was you and like a thousand other people, max; compare that to now. EG picked up the 'clique' of USA players and knew they were going to everything they could to make money off of them whether they succeeded in the game or not. Proof would be that Machine and Lz haven't had any impressive results, in like forever. It doesn't matter, though. They're more than players and they make money for EG because of it. Skill has very little to do with making money in SC2 right now, and that's why it's so unrealistic to try to make a career out of SC2. If you weren't playing in the beta and marketing yourself then the ship has sailed. Without top tournament results, you're not going to get anywhere really.
You're repeating the same thing as you said before. I'm not even going to bother with explaining the merits of your scale because we're talking about personas and personalities here and this goes way back when. If you couldn't get a good read on their personalities well before SC2 even came out then that's on you man. No one else but yourself. I've been around not only this community but all the other BW communities and Incontrol and IdrA posted a ton. Heck, BOTH of them joined teamliquid.net very frigging late. Like I said, the only thing EG did was highlight them more. What does EG do? They amplify them more through all the shows and their sponsors plugs and ads. It's a good thing for them and it's sad to see so few teams be able to replicate what they do. I'm not arguing the fact EG is helping their push because they are. I'm saying these guys would have found success without EG because they put themselves out there all the time. They have the personality to do it whether you like them or not. They're going to chime in. Before Geoff joined this place you should have seen how much he posted on the other websites. He posts a ton. Just like Greg. They like banter. Good ol' WGTour. How I miss thee.
You speak about the BW days as if you were there for them, do you have an alternate account? This one is from 2010
-_-
A few of them. You guys have to stop referring to that crap, team, post count, etc. I've been here since the beginning man and I do recognize you from posts past, which makes it a little more cringeworthy when you try to pull that card.
On August 19 2012 02:28 iNcontroL wrote:
I joined TL late? This is my 2nd account and I believe it's from 2004 o-O the other one (banned) was from 1-2 years before that.
I almost forgot you got banned. I'm talking about the time you came and went on that huge went on that long posting spree for months on end. I remember that, I don't remember the other shit, but I could take a wild guess.
In either case, guys like you and Greg push yourselves and what you do on your own. Not to say a team like EG or their sponsors don't help because they do.
Before that you most certainly posted a ton on places like WGTour, GG.net, etc. I really don't remember you posting a whole lot prior to that. Probably to defend your [Media] cronies. o;Last edit: 2012-08-21 05:07:14 |
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| Klappstuhl Germany. August 21 2012 05:48. Posts 3 | Profile # |
| Really sad. Check Six is such an oldschool team. Always loved their Counter-Strike division and the SC2 team was pretty cool too. |
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| CrAyZeD United States. August 23 2012 01:53. Posts 36 | Profile # |
| CheckSix was not the best team but their players had some amazing talent and I always enjoyed Mr. Black's stream :D |
| | Nice To Meet You!<3 |  |
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| Hashmeister Germany. August 25 2012 17:50. Posts 234 | Profile # |
| Oh thats too bad they had good players like PainUser.... wheres he gonna go now? |
| | bit.ly/hashmeister |  |
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USA. August 19 2012 02:28. Posts 28386
