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 Mavvie Canada. August 15 2012 14:40. Posts 850 | Profile Blog # |
[G/D] ZvP - Defending the Immortal/Sentry all-in
Great post by Orek, explains the all-in in its true form:
Let me help set standard for what Zerg should assume for this push. I present no solution, but just raw facts and analysis so that we can discuss based on the same timings/assumptions.
As LonelyClock posted in last page, I think this game needs to be added to the OP to show everyone what we are dealing with.
Introduction
Hello TeamLiquid, I'm Mavvie, a (now mid!) Masters Zerg on NA. ZvP is my best and favourite matchup, yet there is one all-in that is simply really, really good and often beats even the highest level GSL players. This all-in is known as the immortal/sentry all in, or 3 immortal timing, really whatever you want to call it. It's 3 immortals, 6+ sentries, and 7 gates of stalker/zealot reinforcements, often with warp prism/observers, that can be attacking your third as early as 10:20. This thread is designed to discuss and compile the various ways of defending the immortal/sentry all-in as Zerg. I will start off by describing the ways I am familiar with, if you have your own way (against a true immortal/sentry all-in that is attacking you no later than 10:45) that I have missed, please post and include a replay for us to see it in action!
Note: This is intended as a compilation of methods that can stop the all-in. I'm not pretending to invent these, in fact I have little to no experience with most of these methods. I've just been reading TL a lot, and know of these methods. As a result of this, I happen to have no recent replays except for one  Please post replays of you defending this all-in! Not to be elitist, but really masters and higher replays only. Odds are, in lower leagues it won't be executed properly, and often Protoss don't know how to forcefield and abuse terrain. This is a topic that has been discussed heavily before, but never in a really comprehensive fashion. If you read every post in the Zerg Help Me Thread, and Belial's ZvP guide, and the [D] about Nestea's fast mutalisk style, you would know how to defend the all-in. Unfortunately, this is neither fast nor practical, so I have decided to throw it all together into one happy thread to discuss. Also, it's my first guide, criticism will be accepted and I will be actively editing this with new replays, vods, and methods. Also expect some sexy images of Protoss armies getting crushed.
Orek is also a boss and described the possible ways of scouting this:
"Squirtle's build order execution looks very close to optimal. As Khaldor said in the video, it is "textbook immortal push" that Zerg players should keep in mind. I doubt that an average NA/EU master/GM Joe can pull off this level of play at the moment, so probably add 10-30sec to every timing for your ladder play.
Timings (only important timings)
6:00&6:25 3rd 4th gas taken
9:00 move out
9:45 arrive near or inbetween Zerg bases if undisturbed. (depend on map distance)
10:10 engagement unit count =3immortals, 12 sentries, 1 stalker, 5 zealots, 1 warpprism, 1 observer(not arrived yet) with +1 attack upgrade.
10:30 +1 armor upgrade finish if no chronoboost is used. -10sec for each chronoboost. In the video, it is not clear if squirtle used chrono or not, but 10:30 is upgrade complete timing at the very latest.
Depending on map and where you set up the defense, Zerg has at least 35-60sec to prepare after lings confirm the push in front of protoss base. Map distance reference:[G]Map Distance & Travel Time. Check 2.25 movement speed section for immortal/sentry.(Ohana has different image, but distance is the same)
Zerg Scouting
I think we need to assume the worst when skill is not involved.
Standard scouting assumption:
1. Zerg can scout 3rd&4th gas timings (Cloud Kingdom 4th gas is the only one hard to scout on ladder)
2. Zerg cannot scout any tech buildings including robo with overlord sacrifice. (not always reliable, so assume the worst)
3. Zerg cannot see the sentries with overlord sacrifice. (1 stalker is already out at 6:15 to kill the overlord)
4. Zerg can know that protoss doesn't have 7:30ish fast 3rd. (1 ling can easily scout it)
5. Zerg can see the move out around 9:00-9:30 in front of protoss base. (lings with careful micro is skill-based, not luck-based)
6. Zerg cannot find/kill all proxy pylons, espcially non-close ones. (It is OK to assume you can kill close proxy before 9:30, but hidden mid map ones are not always found/killable)"
In a typical game, you will not be certain that you've seen every last gateway. You can't always scout every last inch of his base, so you can't definitively rely on this. The difference between a 5gate robo expand and a 7gate robo all-in is minimal -- only 2 gateways difference! Fortunately, you typically react to both of these the same way:
-Take a fourth
-Go more ling heavy than usual
Without further ado, how do we stop this terrible all-in?
Method 1: Out-power it with roach/ling
Good news: This is the most reliable, consistent, skill-based way to stop it. sCCrooked has done a lot of work and research, so props to him  Here is what he has to say about roach/ling:
On December 25 2012 14:35 sCCrooked wrote:I realized I never really compiled all my findings spread out in this thread into 1 post so here goes: sCCroooked's findings regarding stopping the immortal/sentry all-in from the last 5 months of extensive testingThe best response in my opinion is roach/ling but with a variation on how you execute it. First off, most Zs go lair first vs P. This is no longer possible with immo/sentry being so popular as it strikes before lair tech units can be out. The immo/sentry expand also has given P a very safe option to expand with this composition and its incredibly hard to tell the difference as a Z, while even a slight delay in the proper reaction could result in a game over. To stop the immortal all-in, we must recognize its formation and its execution first. -3 immortals + many sentries move out of natural base with warp prism on the way and a probe or 2 to build pylons During this first stage, all the P will have is immortal/sentry with no zealot/stalker except possibly 1 single stalker which isn't a significant factor we have to consider in this since the counter-unit is the same.So what kills 1 stalker/sentries and immortals? Bunch of speedlings! If they forcefield, even better because it still helps your cause out. -The remaining immortals/sentries and the pylons/warp-prism will gather together in a single spot and defend it with ffs and firing behind the wall. Seeing such mass lings during the first stage of our engagements will almost always force zealot warp-ins. If they warp in stalkers, its just begging for more lings to be made. This stage is incredibly important because its right around now that the attack looks a lot more threatening with all the warp-ins adding to its power. Since you forced a lot of zealots, make a roach round to deal with it and pre-rally them into a flank at home. They won't have speed done just yet so they're useless off creep. Position these in a nice big circle to lead them into. After 1-2 warps of zealots, you probably won't be able to force any ffs unless the P gets careless since most Ps will realize they're safe behind 14 zealots from your lings and can stop the sentry/immo from being attacked. Try to pick off sentries if you can, but whatever you do, don't waste your lings.-Finally, the P is completely set up with immo/sentry and will be attacking into one of your bases with the intention of continually reinforcing with zealot/stalker and then winning right there. Hopefully by this point, you've exhausted almost all the sentry energy. They might have enough for 1 more big donut of forcefields, but that should be it and you can get in with the next wave of roach/ling.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now that we've broken that down and how to respond in each stage, how do we achieve all these timings?I'd recommend following fenner's build order from this video. Its very greedy and gets a warren too late for things like 8 gate +2 blink allins or something, but its perfect for the latest meta which is 3 base collossi pushes off immo/sentry or SG expand or the immo/sentry all-in off 2 bases. You really don't see much 4 gate +1 pressure into all-in or those as much these days. However we're going to make a few changes to Fenner's build order for this particular all-in. The beauty of this version is that I've found it not only works against immo/sentry all-in, but it also is fast enough and with enough economy and tech to completely kill P who use the immo/sentry as an expand off 5 gates or so. At this point, I'm assuming everyone has seen the video or can get to 70+ supply before 7:30 rather easily (you really want before 7:15, but 7:30 is a good round number for general use here) so I shouldn't have to explain that build part. We're just going to point out all the variation changes we need to stop this push.
-Speed first, then lair (reason is we need speed to be done no later than 8:30 or so for that 8:50 first stage)
-Stop at no more than 56 drones. (reason for this is larva + timing. Those 4-8 larva can be 16 speedlings instead of drones and stopping at this number does not dent your economy badly)
-Delay macro hatch until your first ling round is made
-Spread Creep with at least 2 tumors. I usually do one with my natural queen and then once again around 50 supply mark and 6:00 from the third base
Using these variations, you get speedlings out quicker in time to deal with the oncoming push. You also have roach tech (which wouldn't have speed even close to done anyways even if lair was done) massing slowly at your base. The purpose of these lings is more harassment. Treat them like you would a muta flock of 10 or so when facing a Terran base that already has turrets but is trying to build more on the edges or something. Its a volatile force you're facing and a few good ffs can catch some lings, so pay attention to this force very carefully. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well now that we see the variations, how do we execute this?-While active with your lings on the map engaging his first push-out, target sentries and probes/pylons above all else. If you're REALLY lucky he'll screw up and you can surround an immortal in which case definitely take it, but this would be a rather large blunder so don't count on it. You can quite possibly pick off all probes thus crippling his reinforcement abilities and might even get a sentry or 2 killed. -Make a round of pure roach at home after your 20-30 speedlings -Continue to engage and surround with lings while on the map. Do not move your roaches! You basically want to set them up and then lure them into this attacking spot with the flank already set up. -Its ok to make a few lings if you see your group of lings got ff'd or something and it caused you to lose a lot of them, but concentrate mainly on roaches. If you see they still have a considerable amount of ffs when they reach your base, you can suicide the remaining ling bunch trying to bait some more or take out some sentries. As soon as you see them actually at your base, its time for the big attack. You need to snap that big 3 or even 4 way arc of roaches around them and prepare to back them off once he makes a donut of ffs. If you did a good job with the lings, this should be his final ffs you're seeing. After this point, its ok to make either roaches or lings depending on what you see happening. Its very dependent at this point so I can't really guide farther than this. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Are there other factors I should consider?Yes! There are things like engagement places and looking for likely places for pylons to be hidden. On a map like Entombed, make sure that small arc behind the middle-left and middle-right rocked-off expansions is cleared. P love hiding stuff back there. Any areas that have vision-blockers like shrubs or trees need to be checked thoroughly. A good P will send 2 probes to make pylons just in case you see one of them with the army, there's another one running around sneakily setting up places they can reinforce on the map. Sniping those probes is HUGE if you can pull it off. In a proper engagement of the roaches, you want to set up the flanks long before you'll actually have him in there. The longer you're able to keep him busy, the more roaches you can have waiting for him there. On a map like Ohana, its very likely they'll snake up around onto where you'd normally build your 4th base and try to set up a position there. Since you already know probably where he'll engage (Daybreak on your third's choke, Cloud Kingdom on that snaking back path to your third, etc), it shouldn't be hard to rally the eggs to different places so you have a huge flank already set up. I can't stress how important this is. Try to save the lings as much as possible while harassing the crap out of sentries. They buy you time and weaken his potential with baiting ffs and killing sentries/probes/pylons. The roaches are your hammer though. Think of the time you buy and the damage you do with your lings as a gauge. By killing more stuff or preventing more pylons or every time you make him use a forcefield, that hammer is raised higher and the head is given more weight as time goes on. Ahead there be some spoilers from a game of the Blizzard Cup Finals, do not read if you don't want Parting vs Life spoiled!+ Show Spoiler +Your object here is to make "The Hammer" part as heavy and as painful as possible. This was showcased in some replays but I don't have many of my own to give. The best execution in a pro match I've seen was in the last Blizzard Cup Finals on Entombed. Life did exactly as I've been testing and it stopped parting cold. He was trying to warp in nothing but sentries at the end because Life did so well with the lings and had so many roaches waiting when Parting finally made it over.
Now granted, I think he got pretty damned lucky with the probe/pylon snipe, but the concept is very sound and still works at top 50 GM level as I've shown before. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Extra concerns I will add later into another well-written part include: -what if they manage to get down pylons? -actual in-depth descriptions of how to engage on every map in the current pool -more replays of myself pulling this off at GM league level -what if they go for 5 gate immo/sentry expand and I went for this variation? Won't I be behind? I hope you all find my research helpful and I will continue to post my findings here.
Everything I say below still applies, but like the rest of the guide is a bit outdated. For example, you should hit 70 supply at 7:20, not 8:00. "Macro better" is hugely important!
Okay, so you're playing a standard ZvP, when all of a sudden you scout immortal/sentry all-in. You have balls of steel, so you decide to use roach/ling to kill his all-in (or pressure his expand)
Be extremely ling heavy. Like really ling heavy. As in, 20 roaches MAX, preferably fewer. You want as many lings as possible, you really need to macro perfectly. If you don't hit 70 food by 8:00, and you don't make a macro hatch at 8:00, you'll simply lose with roach/ling. Also, if you just 1a into his army, you /should/ lose. Unless Protoss sucks.
How to engage:
You need 2 to 3 flanks minimum. If you come at him from one direction, he'll just laugh and forcefield you to death, while his army (and lead) snowballs. You must engage from multiple directions, hopefully in the open. If you manage to fully surround his units, you've won the game. Try to micro so that zerglings are attacking the immortals and stalkers, but at the very least try to draw the fire away from the roaches. The AI makes units target the closest units, and if the immortals are shooting zerglings then you're in a pretty good shape.
Oboeman recommends flanking with roach/ling from both directions, and that creep spread is extremely important, even worth an inject or two:
When trying to use roach ling, make sure you have both roaches and lings on all sides of your flank. If you hit with roaches from one side and lings from the other, it's pretty easy to forcefield you out while still killing many units. If you have roach/ling on both sides, it's much harder and he needs to use more than twice as many forcefields.
Also I know we are all very greedy with our inject,. but a bit of creep really does help out so much.
Since I'm a noob, I'll typically have my split my army into three parts. I have half my lings on 1, half on 2, and my roaches on 3. 1 and 2 should be opposite directions, while your roaches hit the side flank.
For example:
Roaches
(down arrow)
Lings--->>Protoss<<----Lings
----------Wall--------------
Protoss has to forcefield 270 degrees of Zerg forces, and if he misses even one, you swarm in. Even if he forcefields correctly, he's trapped himself, hopefully out of range of your hatchery. Just wait for the FF to dissipate, then re-engage. It's possible to defeat immortal/sentry with roach/ling, but you need to macro perfectly then engage perfectly. Very hard.
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +I have a few replays of plat league me vs diamond league Protoss during a lesson with TangSC, I will try to find these ASAP. In the mean time, please post replays of this method!
Method 2: Basetrade with roach/ling
As far as I know, this is the only method of defeating the all-in consistently at the pro level. It's really easy. Once you see him move out, you mass spines at your natural, while taking your current army to his base, while avoiding his army. You sac your third, but kill Protoss's natural, so it's a 2base vs 1base situation. Honestly I don't know how to transition out of this, I guess your best bet is to go mutalisk/zergling and immediately double expand. This style has been done before by blade55555, and he's had extreme success with it in the grandmaster league.
Focus fire the probes + nexus, then try to snipe the main if you can.
Upon playing more with the various ways of defending the all-in, this is totally the best one imo. I'd like to emphasize just how easy and simple it is; even with bad macro it's a free win. Just remember to mass spines around when he moves out, preferably make ~5 about 30 seconds before you think he'll move out.
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
Method 3: Fast 3 base mutalisks
Originally done by Nestea in the GSL, a truly amazing build that wins against robo expands and wins against robo all-ins.
While any fast mutalisk build works, this is the rough outline of Nestea's:
1) Fast gas after third (~4:30)
2) First 100 gas into ling speed, next 100 into lair
3) Drone up as usual, take 3x gas at 6:30
4) If you scout no gateway all-in, skip roach warren + evo chamber entirely
5) If you scout robo, Spire as soon as lair finishes
6) 2x gas at 7:00-7:30
If he all-ins, mass spines in your natural, sac third (leave guys mining gas) and basetrade with muta/ling. Reinforcing mutas go to his base, reinforcing lings stay in your spine forest.
If he expands, take a fourth and pressure with mutas. Honestly, you should win the game then and there. 10-15 mutas pop at 10:30; no protoss is ever prepared for that.
Original Thread
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
Method 4: Mass zergling into 3 base muta (not fast)
So this is a style that Belial has used, and it's my personal favourite. Fortunately for me, people in diamond suck, so it works just great.
Open standard gasless 3 hatch, 3x gas at 6:30, blah blah blah open standard, hit 70+ by 8:00, and macro hatch immediately. Mass lings. +1 Carapace helped me a lot, shouldn't usually get this though. So if you mass lings from 8:30+, you can sort of kind of engage if you flank a lot. I really just stall for mutas, then I'm able to win the engagements and proceed to win the game through not playing like a moron. I imagine that at higher levels you could pull this style off by making a bunch of spines to add critical DPS to your zerglings when you engage, but you'd have to make them ~9:00 because of how long they take to morph.
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +Here's a game I played today, worked very well in my favour ZvP Ohana
Method 5: Baneling drops
Here's one that I hope you guys can explain and give replays of working! The problem is that you can't get drops in time to stop the all-in...maybe a modification of Nestea's build could work, but there's no high level replays of this working. Despite this all, every second post about dealing with sentry/immortal all-ins suggests baneling drops. Even Kevin te Raa has said that he will be coming out with a guide(?) or at least replays on the topic. I'm looking forward to that!
Awesome, first replay I've seen of baneling drops being used against sentry/immortal. Here's the build that I think would be "optimal", from seeing the replay:
-gas @5:00
-gas @6:00
-gas @7:00
-ling speed first, then lair
-no roach warren/evo unless needed
-@100% lair, get drops + overlord speed
-@50 gas, baneling nest
-macro hatch when money allows, should be ~8:45
-cut drones ~50 (I really don't like this part of the build, but it seems to be necessary to defend this particular all-in. I imagine that if he had skipped the roach warren, he would've had up to 10 more drones here)
-morph 24+ banes upon completion of baneling nest
-don't get supply blocked! 
Engagements:
In the replay, he engaged with the overlords from one direction, zerglings flanking. It didn't work, along with having 1500/500 banked. If there was no supply block, it would've been an easy cleanup. Banelings killed much of the sentries, and i think having ling/overlord on one side and ling/bane on the other would be terrific. This looks pretty promising. I still don't like 15 hatch, because the slight economic gain is negated by almost always having to pull drones.
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
Analysis of new ways to stop it:
An excerpt of Orek's post, explaining the FF count and general rules for possible solutions:
+ Show Spoiler +
10:10 Forcefield count analysis
energy regeneration rate is 0.5625energy/second. Time it takes to regenerate 50 energy for forcefield = 50/0.5625=88.8888=almost 90sec=1min30sec. Therefore, whichever sentry made after 8:40 has only 1 force field, and those before 8:40 have 2 forcefields. Among before 8:40 group, sentry made before 7:10 can even have 3rd forcefield as well. From video analysis, it looks 1sentry =3FF, 3 sentry =2FF, 8 sentry =1FF. 1*3+3*2+8*1=17 forcefields are available for protoss at 10:10 mark. Since there are 12 sentries and 90sec is 50energy regeneration interval, 90/12 =7.5sec is average FF refill period. That is to say, protoss gains 1 additional forcefield every 7.5 seconds on average. Therefore, 10:10 17FFcount -> 10:40 21 FFcount ->11:10 25 FFcount ->11:40 29 FFcount if protoss keeps all 12 sentries alivem
With all these in mind, Zerg should go for a build that
A. can defend immortal/sentry all-in (obviously)
B. can defend other 2 base all-ins that involve 6:00-6:25ish 3rd&4th gas.
If you do a build that can satisfy A, but not B, then it relies on your luck or opponent's lack of skill. Your build has to satisfy both A&B to play consistently. Important thing to remember is that you never know 100% if it is immortal/sentry push until 9:00 mark. It could be delayed 2 stargate(usually 5:30&6:00 gas) as far as you know from the scouting information.
I hope these information set common ground for discussion.
Closing notes:
Thanks for reading, hopefully you enjoyed and can try out some various ways to stop this powerful all-in! Since I don't have access to many recent replays against this style, please post any replays and mention which style you used! Honestly, I hope that we can kick this all-in out of the metagame. Take that, Protoss! Just kidding love you guys :D
Change log:
+ Show Spoiler +
Edit 1: Formatting changes, changed the header images to some that were "less offensive"
Edit 2: Added content to baneling drops, including a replay thanks to Chaos. Also added change log.
August 17, 2012: Added in blade55555's new replays + video analysis the the roach/ling basetrade section.
August 19,2012: Added the video at the top, also included excerpts from Orek's post that help define both the all-in itself, and guidelines for builds that may attempt to stop it (and other similar-looking all-ins, from a worst-case-scenario zerg scouting point of view)
Last edit: 2013-01-09 10:27:37 |
| | Mavvie.439 ~ 2500+MMR [HOTS] Masters Zerg on NA ~ part of Bronze 3v3 team uwu ~ Feel free to add me to play some games ~~ Hyunstoppable? |
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 Belial88 United States. August 15 2012 15:40. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
When I go muta to 'counter' robo play, I hold off on my macro hatch - you actually won't be banking minerals if you macro well, since you are banking gas, and you'll actually need to cut ling production, as 1.5k means you also need to have 1.5k minerals.
So if Toss pushes out, i don't make the macro hatch, but instead prefer to make 3 more spines with that money. If Toss goes for his third, I'll actually take my fourth first, since I'll have total map control with the mutas and there's no issue of trying to defend a push and being spread on 4 bases being a problem.
Quick mutas, like nestea's build, won't autowin against robo expands if the Toss is good with scouting and gets twilght, blink started asap, especially on maps where mutas aren't as good. Although really, I've had a lot of straight up wins with it against robo expands on ladder, it seems to me the later the third, the easier it is to kill them.
I have no idea how pros hold immortal/sentry or why every Toss doesn't do it still. Out of all the times it's been executed correctly, Toss has always been ahead, and except for 2 really stupid games, Toss has always won.
Nestea vs Sage or something... muta base trade
Hyun vs someone in GSTL muggenheim, roach/ling full base trade, no spines, loses all his bases, literally both players have nothing on the map and eventually hyun has enough units to win made from spread out bases
That's it
Then leenock and i think violet, or symbol, on daybreak and cloud kingdom respectively, have had games where Toss kills the third, but toss is a moron and keeps pushing instead of backing off, and loses their entire army on creep, in a corner, with no forcefield left, totally surrounded, by maxed roach/drone/queen, but these games I think Toss really had the game won, just they were dumb.
Then one Toss actually lost going immortal/sentry because he move commanded all his sentries into a full group of lings, and forgot 2 of his 3 immortals with the push. Not sure what was going on with that guy, but he had a superior army and was able to walk to the third unimpeded, if he wasn't braindead he would have easily won that game.
But for some reason, Toss never do this build in pro play and for whatever reason, immortal/sentry isn't around in the current metagame. in WCS korea some toss did this and just rolled the zerg with it.
I just edited my guide and added a ton of content on immortal/sentry. I literally wrote it out the exact same way you did, and I did it 2 days ago. lol. i feel like you copy/pastad exactly what i said. not that i care though, i mean, you link my guide, and copying my guide just means there are two badass guides on TL.Last edit: 2012-08-15 15:45:50 |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
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| 734pot Australia. August 15 2012 15:59. Posts 158 | Profile # |
| Is it possible to get baneling drops in time if you skip the +1/+1 and speed before lair using a 4:30 gas? |
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| Decendos Germany. August 15 2012 16:24. Posts 912 | Profile # |
On August 15 2012 15:59 734pot wrote:
Is it possible to get baneling drops in time if you skip the +1/+1 and speed before lair using a 4:30 gas?
basically baneling drop and muta needs the same time to get. so if muta is viable, baneling drops are too. like said in the OP you need to stall with mass lings (and preferably with 4-6 banes so he HAS to FF himself in = more time stalled).
@OP: perhaps you could add another variant: roach ling drop in Ps main with mass spines at natural where you defend with spines, lings and banedrop. |
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| bgalang92 United States. August 15 2012 16:51. Posts 155 | Profile # |
| While I initially wrote off this guide seeing that you were a mid-diamond player, I'm very pleased with how you wrote this, and how you give credit to others who have discussed this issue, and the overall presentation. Kudos to you! Great job. =D I hope you get into Masters soon. =) Last edit: 2012-08-15 16:51:18 |
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| Chaosvuistje Netherlands. August 15 2012 17:39. Posts 2546 | Profile # |
On August 15 2012 15:59 734pot wrote:
Is it possible to get baneling drops in time if you skip the +1/+1 and speed before lair using a 4:30 gas?
If you want baneling drops out in time you need to take a gas much earlier than the regular double extractor at 6:00. Either you take a single gas at 4:30 or double extractor at 5:00. But the latter is less efficient because you really won't be needing that much gas that early on. It is also critical to get lair up before speed if the signs are right ( third and fourth gas at 6:00, sentry zapping you, spotting a robo ) so you can get drops out against the 9:30 variant. But you can't get any upgrades aside from roach-speed if you want to do this style. I'd go with the other styles that were brought up in this guide and try and work with those while I gather replays and evidence in favour of this method. |
| | Follow me on @raamedia, updates on good TL threads and SC2 news. And also webdevelopment ^^ |
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| Grapefruit Germany. August 15 2012 17:57. Posts 438 | Profile # |
The first picture makes you look like such a big douchebag that I didn't even read the first line.
User was warned for this post |
| | Starcraft 2 is funny, everybody picks the race, which he considers to be the weakest. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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| Kaleidos Italy. August 15 2012 18:14. Posts 129 | Profile # |
Using the bane ling opening, i've seen Goswser base trading with a bust to the protoss wall (so same concept of the roach ling). While doing this ofc you spine up your nat and tech muta or prepare for the drop.
If you go 1 gas after 3rd hatch, take speed, lair , 3 more gases , and upgrades after, you get drop upgrade completed at 10.50 (probably even sooner since i stay on 2 drones on gas for a while after i take speed). |
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| Kaitokid Germany. August 15 2012 18:16. Posts 1322 | Profile Blog # |
| the game ended at 21:12 lol.... how is this even a sentry immortal allin game? hahahaha |
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| InfusedTT.DaZe Romania. August 15 2012 18:24. Posts 509 | Profile # |
On August 15 2012 17:57 Grapefruit wrote:
The first picture makes you look like such a big douchebag that I didn't even read the first line.
this
really, scouting someting and trash talking in game is not cool or manner, also you are diamond so if i were you i would make that pic dissapear from this topic |
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| Mavvie Canada. August 16 2012 01:28. Posts 850 | Profile Blog # |
On August 15 2012 16:24 Decendos wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 15:59 734pot wrote:
Is it possible to get baneling drops in time if you skip the +1/+1 and speed before lair using a 4:30 gas?
basically baneling drop and muta needs the same time to get. so if muta is viable, baneling drops are too. like said in the OP you need to stall with mass lings (and preferably with 4-6 banes so he HAS to FF himself in = more time stalled). @OP: perhaps you could add another variant: roach ling drop in Ps main with mass spines at natural where you defend with spines, lings and banedrop.
Actually, this seems interesting. I'll try it out today with a practice partner. You have a good point they both can be done ~10:30. Hopefully drop tech is faster because you don't have to add the mutalisk spawn time -- drops are done when they're done. Also, if you survive, bane drops are absolutely amazing. Have you seen DIMAGA vs Naniwa? He beats a double robo colossi push with mostly ling/bane iirc. If this works I'll add info to the OP, and replays |
| | Mavvie.439 ~ 2500+MMR [HOTS] Masters Zerg on NA ~ part of Bronze 3v3 team uwu ~ Feel free to add me to play some games ~~ Hyunstoppable? |
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| Mavvie Canada. August 16 2012 01:33. Posts 850 | Profile Blog # |
On August 15 2012 18:24 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 17:57 Grapefruit wrote:
The first picture makes you look like such a big douchebag that I didn't even read the first line.
this really, scouting someting and trash talking in game is not cool or manner, also you are diamond so if i were you i would make that pic dissapear from this topic
Didn't expect that picture to offend people, but I guess I'll remove them and replace with one from blade's reps.
I said that because 1) I had lost to the all in 3 times in a row already, 2) in my opinion it's a fairly skilless all-in; I can offrace and win every PvZ doing it, and 3) he was almost a full minute late moving out. No matter, you're right that BM has no place in an OP. I'll edit it out.
On August 15 2012 18:16 Kaitokid wrote:
the game ended at 21:12 lol.... how is this even a sentry immortal allin game? hahahaha
Well you see, 7 gates of stalkers and cannons can actually prevent instant death but as you see in the minimap, it was 4 bases with 100 drones vs 2 bases, one mined out. It's not like I was going to lose the game. He just prolonged it for as long as possible. |
| | Mavvie.439 ~ 2500+MMR [HOTS] Masters Zerg on NA ~ part of Bronze 3v3 team uwu ~ Feel free to add me to play some games ~~ Hyunstoppable? |
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| Belial88 United States. August 16 2012 02:43. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
The reason baneling drop is not viable, but mutas are, is because mutas are about base trading, so you don't care you are losing your third hatchery before your mutas even pop, because you are relying on mutas busting down the wall-in at Toss' natural and then your ling/muta just destroys everything instantly, and then you have 30+ mutas to focus whatever Toss remakes once all of your bases are gone.
Baneling drops, are meant to fight straight up with immortal/sentry, so there are problems with it's timing. You are assuming that Toss will fight you when he sees your army, but any smart Toss will just have killed your third, see the baneling+drop tech at your natural, and then go home with a huge lead, or just go straight into your natural, main, and kill you |
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| Decendos Germany. August 16 2012 03:15. Posts 912 | Profile # |
well you can play it basetrade style as well. no problem there.
if he kills your 3rd and retreats, just countergo and crush him.
optimally you dont want to lose your 3rd but its not that big of a deal. just dont lose any army if you couldnt stall long enough. but it should be possible to stall long enough with lings and some spines at 3rd.
i am going 5:40 1 gas which means banedrop is ready at 10:40. if you like you can take your gas 10-20 sec earlier but usually that just cuts eco and you will easily be able to stall for 10-20 sec. Last edit: 2012-08-16 03:18:55 |
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| Whitewing United States. August 16 2012 03:23. Posts 5709 | Profile # |
| Symbol holds this off by roach dropping all over the sentry immortal army. It's hilariously effective, since it completely negates the forcefields. |
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| Mavvie Canada. August 16 2012 03:57. Posts 850 | Profile Blog # |
On August 15 2012 15:40 Belial88 wrote:
When I go muta to 'counter' robo play, I hold off on my macro hatch - you actually won't be banking minerals if you macro well, since you are banking gas, and you'll actually need to cut ling production, as 1.5k means you also need to have 1.5k minerals.
So if Toss pushes out, i don't make the macro hatch, but instead prefer to make 3 more spines with that money. If Toss goes for his third, I'll actually take my fourth first, since I'll have total map control with the mutas and there's no issue of trying to defend a push and being spread on 4 bases being a problem.
Quick mutas, like nestea's build, won't autowin against robo expands if the Toss is good with scouting and gets twilght, blink started asap, especially on maps where mutas aren't as good. Although really, I've had a lot of straight up wins with it against robo expands on ladder, it seems to me the later the third, the easier it is to kill them.
I have no idea how pros hold immortal/sentry or why every Toss doesn't do it still. Out of all the times it's been executed correctly, Toss has always been ahead, and except for 2 really stupid games, Toss has always won.
Nestea vs Sage or something... muta base trade
Hyun vs someone in GSTL muggenheim, roach/ling full base trade, no spines, loses all his bases, literally both players have nothing on the map and eventually hyun has enough units to win made from spread out bases
That's it
Then leenock and i think violet, or symbol, on daybreak and cloud kingdom respectively, have had games where Toss kills the third, but toss is a moron and keeps pushing instead of backing off, and loses their entire army on creep, in a corner, with no forcefield left, totally surrounded, by maxed roach/drone/queen, but these games I think Toss really had the game won, just they were dumb.
Then one Toss actually lost going immortal/sentry because he move commanded all his sentries into a full group of lings, and forgot 2 of his 3 immortals with the push. Not sure what was going on with that guy, but he had a superior army and was able to walk to the third unimpeded, if he wasn't braindead he would have easily won that game.
But for some reason, Toss never do this build in pro play and for whatever reason, immortal/sentry isn't around in the current metagame. in WCS korea some toss did this and just rolled the zerg with it.
I just edited my guide and added a ton of content on immortal/sentry. I literally wrote it out the exact same way you did, and I did it 2 days ago. lol. i feel like you copy/pastad exactly what i said. not that i care though, i mean, you link my guide, and copying my guide just means there are two badass guides on TL.
Really? Okay, I'll edit the OP. I always had the resources for one, but we all know how good my macro is
Yeah I actually asked why all protoss don't do the all-in...it's a very good question. They should, just throw down 2-3 cannons as you move out, and hope that you aren't playing vs Nestea.
Yeah I exaggerated a little, but there's no doubt that mutas are the best thing to get if they go robo. As you said, you have total map control to expand + drone like a madman.
I wish I had a GSL pass to watch those games, is it worth getting?
Oh man I'm sorry! I hadn't read that section when I was writing this guide, it was all compiled from the posts about it I've seen around in the various threads. Also, the sentry/immortal section in your guide is double-spoilered, and there was currently no thread discussing the all-in, so this makes it easier to access. I'll take that as a compliment I assure you that the only thing I copy-pasted were the URLs to images, replays, and threads.
Edit: I wouldn't say it's not in the current metagame...WhiteRa did that guide on it with husky, and I've seen it at least 1/5 games against Protoss ever since. I also don't know why Protoss players get +1 armor instead of shields...It makes immortals 10% more OP (jkjk, but it does make them 10% stronger), while beefing up the strength of their walls + cannons against Zerglings. Armor just doesn't do much for any Protoss unit.Last edit: 2012-08-16 03:59:20 |
| | Mavvie.439 ~ 2500+MMR [HOTS] Masters Zerg on NA ~ part of Bronze 3v3 team uwu ~ Feel free to add me to play some games ~~ Hyunstoppable? |
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| Belial88 United States. August 16 2012 03:59. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
Symbol holds this off by roach dropping all over the sentry immortal army. It's hilariously effective, since it completely negates the forcefields.
No he doesn't...
Symbol dropped a Toss who took his third that has some immortals and sentries. He does not use drops to beat an immortal/sentry all-in which is a 6+ gateway all-in that pushes out with 3 immortals by 9:20.
It's like all the people saying Dimaga used bane drops to beat immortal/sentry all-in. He didn't, he used baneling drops against a toss who did a robo expand, and dropped at like 15:00, like 10:00.
Sorry, but I don't think you understand what happened. There's a huge difference from a 2 base all-in defense, and attacking someone who takes a third. You don't say someone goes broodlords to beat colossus all-ins when people get broodlords to beat 3 base toss with colossus.
well you can play it basetrade style as well. no problem there.
if he kills your 3rd and retreats, just countergo and crush him.
optimally you dont want to lose your 3rd but its not that big of a deal. just dont lose any army if you couldnt stall long enough. but it should be possible to stall long enough with lings and some spines at 3rd.
i am going 5:40 1 gas which means banedrop is ready at 10:40. if you like you can take your gas 10-20 sec earlier but usually that just cuts eco and you will easily be able to stall for 10-20 sec.
Drops are not like mutas - they don't work as well in base trades, due to how slow overlords are (i believe there was a video with axslav on prochanman where he goes into this), and you can't just drop on a Toss army and focus down a pylon or nexus like you can with mutas.
Please, post a replay before stating that drops are the answer. There has never been a pro player who has used droptech to hold any sort of 2 base all-in from Toss, including immortal/sentry. The only one zerg that's ever even gone fast lair, is Nestea, and only for 2 games (showcasing his quick muta play). I'm sure in diamond you can get away with a lot of things to beat immortal/sentry all-ins, but you won't be able to handle a 3 immortal push out before 9:20 with drops. There's a huge difference between an immortal/sentry all-in executed at diamond and higher levels of play, and it completely changes what you can possibly do.Last edit: 2012-08-16 04:06:06 |
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| Mavvie Canada. August 16 2012 04:11. Posts 850 | Profile Blog # |
On August 16 2012 03:15 Decendos wrote:
well you can play it basetrade style as well. no problem there.
if he kills your 3rd and retreats, just countergo and crush him.
optimally you dont want to lose your 3rd but its not that big of a deal. just dont lose any army if you couldnt stall long enough. but it should be possible to stall long enough with lings and some spines at 3rd.
i am going 5:40 1 gas which means banedrop is ready at 10:40. if you like you can take your gas 10-20 sec earlier but usually that just cuts eco and you will easily be able to stall for 10-20 sec.
Something about basetrading with banelings just sounds really freaking stupid. If he kills your third, he's miles ahead, and can just warp in 14 stalkers by the time you get to his base. 10:40 is too late. If good players can get a 4:30 gas and still have 70+ food by 8:00 (skipping roach warren/evo + additional gasses), you shouldn't feel like an early gas kills your eco.
I mean, 5:00 double gas sounds pretty good, theorycrafting time:
4:30 gas:
First 100 gas obtained ~5:50
Second 100 gas obtained ~6:45
Lair with first 100: Lair finishes at ~7:00-7:15, bane drops done at ~9:15
Lair with second 100: Lair finishes ~8:05, bane drops done at ~10:15
Theoretically, on most maps you could go speed first with a 4:30 gas and get bane drops in time to drop the all-in. The timing is REALLY small, you'd have to have banes pre-morphed with overlords ready.
With 5:00 double gas:
Lair first: bane drops done at ~9:15
Speed first: bane drops done at ~9:45
I really don't know, and I don't like banelings or drops enough to try out all the various permutations of the build. Feel free to try 2x gas at 5:00 though, seems like you could get ling speed + bane drops done in time for sentry/immortal all-in. As chaos said, you'll have an unnecessary amount of gas with this. In theory you could take guys out of gas...hmm. Would be interesting if people experimented around with this -- theoretically it could be possible.
Edit: I kind of wish I had a high level Protoss to try this stuff out against, would be pretty fun. Apart from the fact that I'd have to die a lot to sentry/immortal.Last edit: 2012-08-16 04:13:01 |
| | Mavvie.439 ~ 2500+MMR [HOTS] Masters Zerg on NA ~ part of Bronze 3v3 team uwu ~ Feel free to add me to play some games ~~ Hyunstoppable? |
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| Decendos Germany. August 16 2012 04:29. Posts 912 | Profile # |
On August 16 2012 04:11 Mavvie wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 03:15 Decendos wrote:
well you can play it basetrade style as well. no problem there.
if he kills your 3rd and retreats, just countergo and crush him.
optimally you dont want to lose your 3rd but its not that big of a deal. just dont lose any army if you couldnt stall long enough. but it should be possible to stall long enough with lings and some spines at 3rd.
i am going 5:40 1 gas which means banedrop is ready at 10:40. if you like you can take your gas 10-20 sec earlier but usually that just cuts eco and you will easily be able to stall for 10-20 sec.
Something about basetrading with banelings just sounds really freaking stupid. If he kills your third, he's miles ahead, and can just warp in 14 stalkers by the time you get to his base. 10:40 is too late. If good players can get a 4:30 gas and still have 70+ food by 8:00 (skipping roach warren/evo + additional gasses), you shouldn't feel like an early gas kills your eco. I mean, 5:00 double gas sounds pretty good, theorycrafting time: 4:30 gas: First 100 gas obtained ~5:50 Second 100 gas obtained ~6:45 Lair with first 100: Lair finishes at ~7:00-7:15, bane drops done at ~9:15 Lair with second 100: Lair finishes ~8:05, bane drops done at ~10:15 Theoretically, on most maps you could go speed first with a 4:30 gas and get bane drops in time to drop the all-in. The timing is REALLY small, you'd have to have banes pre-morphed with overlords ready. With 5:00 double gas: Lair first: bane drops done at ~9:15 Speed first: bane drops done at ~9:45 I really don't know, and I don't like banelings or drops enough to try out all the various permutations of the build. Feel free to try 2x gas at 5:00 though, seems like you could get ling speed + bane drops done in time for sentry/immortal all-in. As chaos said, you'll have an unnecessary amount of gas with this. In theory you could take guys out of gas...hmm. Would be interesting if people experimented around with this -- theoretically it could be possible. Edit: I kind of wish I had a high level Protoss to try this stuff out against, would be pretty fun. Apart from the fact that I'd have to die a lot to sentry/immortal.
10:40 isnt too late. you can easily premorph banelings (why shouldnt you?) and a good sentry immo all in will arrive at 10:30 IF you do nothing. if you stall with lings its enough time! |
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| Mavvie Canada. August 16 2012 04:59. Posts 850 | Profile Blog # |
On August 16 2012 04:29 Decendos wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 04:11 Mavvie wrote:
On August 16 2012 03:15 Decendos wrote:
well you can play it basetrade style as well. no problem there.
if he kills your 3rd and retreats, just countergo and crush him.
optimally you dont want to lose your 3rd but its not that big of a deal. just dont lose any army if you couldnt stall long enough. but it should be possible to stall long enough with lings and some spines at 3rd.
i am going 5:40 1 gas which means banedrop is ready at 10:40. if you like you can take your gas 10-20 sec earlier but usually that just cuts eco and you will easily be able to stall for 10-20 sec.
Something about basetrading with banelings just sounds really freaking stupid. If he kills your third, he's miles ahead, and can just warp in 14 stalkers by the time you get to his base. 10:40 is too late. If good players can get a 4:30 gas and still have 70+ food by 8:00 (skipping roach warren/evo + additional gasses), you shouldn't feel like an early gas kills your eco. I mean, 5:00 double gas sounds pretty good, theorycrafting time: 4:30 gas: First 100 gas obtained ~5:50 Second 100 gas obtained ~6:45 Lair with first 100: Lair finishes at ~7:00-7:15, bane drops done at ~9:15 Lair with second 100: Lair finishes ~8:05, bane drops done at ~10:15 Theoretically, on most maps you could go speed first with a 4:30 gas and get bane drops in time to drop the all-in. The timing is REALLY small, you'd have to have banes pre-morphed with overlords ready. With 5:00 double gas: Lair first: bane drops done at ~9:15 Speed first: bane drops done at ~9:45 I really don't know, and I don't like banelings or drops enough to try out all the various permutations of the build. Feel free to try 2x gas at 5:00 though, seems like you could get ling speed + bane drops done in time for sentry/immortal all-in. As chaos said, you'll have an unnecessary amount of gas with this. In theory you could take guys out of gas...hmm. Would be interesting if people experimented around with this -- theoretically it could be possible. Edit: I kind of wish I had a high level Protoss to try this stuff out against, would be pretty fun. Apart from the fact that I'd have to die a lot to sentry/immortal.
10:40 isnt too late. you can easily premorph banelings (why shouldnt you?) and a good sentry immo all in will arrive at 10:30 IF you do nothing. if you stall with lings its enough time!
If you have some replays of you beating a well executed sentry/immortal all-in, I'll gladly add the info + reps to the OP! Until then, I don't really believe that it works. It could, but I'd like to see it in action before stating that it's known to work. |
| | Mavvie.439 ~ 2500+MMR [HOTS] Masters Zerg on NA ~ part of Bronze 3v3 team uwu ~ Feel free to add me to play some games ~~ Hyunstoppable? |
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