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i just lost a 20 minute game to a 4pool. at one point i should have died so hard but he overestimated me, i tried to make a comeback but he kept killing my scvs
please watch rep before any comments http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=30495
so far i'm thinking: #1 i should never build rax later than 10, no real need #2 shouldn't have stopped making marines #3 repair my tanks better #4 i wish 6's gas was upward instead of to the left, then a bunker could cover forward raxs and gas
anyways, one of the funnier games i've played in a while highlights: 13 minutes in, i have like 6 scvs and a tank, at 9/10 supply, building a depot. no refinery, no rax, no factory. there's a hatchery near my base... just killed 3 sunkens and a buttload of lings. also have 2 bunkers, 2 marines, and a machine shop addon laying around just in case.
since i needed to tech anyways, i was going to go golies + turret, fearing muta (since all i was was no gas lings all game, ppl muta if you tech, which i did, AND tech pwns 4poolers). turned out to be bad choice i think. i already had tanks so i thought turret golie tank would be okay against either muta or lurk. i kept scouting but zerg didnt take his nat.
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you're making things more complicated than they are. The best way to put away a 4 pool or some outlandish non-sense of that sort is to 8 or 9 rax (BEFORE the depot) and just using one rax instead of two to get the early marines out thereby springing for the early academy. By doing this you can counter very early with medics and firebats.
If you're caught with your pants down you can cancel that 2nd rax and easily afford an early bunker (which is ideal in between your mining scvs). Hold your ground until the first firebat/medic or two come out and the game's over. Also make sure your buildings hug that nearby reigon where your bunker is. You can unload marines, attack, and quickly reload to chase off harassing zerglings.
There's absolutely no reason to drag a 4 pool game out for 20 minutes.
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Yea dude, u lost not cause of strategy, but cause of micro:
you had roughly 12 scvs and 2 marines against 6 or 8 lings. Take 6 scvs and 2 rines to chase arround the lings while 6 scv mine.... and you should have built bunker closer to ur barracks.
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hmm ya i watched the replay too, your micro was pretty horrible T_T.... and i dont know why you bothered to get tanks
but ya, u just plainly microed bad, that's all
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first of all, recommending that i 8 or 9 rax every game is ludicrous.
second, he had more lings than that, chasing them around with 2 rines and 6 scv is suicidal
third, if you don't know why i got tanks, you didn't watch the rep.
and if you don't know why the game went on for 20 minutes, again, you didn't watch the game.....
my bunker was too late to save the barracks, if you watched. ...
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
instead of building a bunker so early you could've made some more rines and micro'd ur scv/rines vs his lings, slow lings get really weak once the rine numbers add up (like 4+) or as someone else said cancelled one of ur barracks and made a bunker... but you stopped buildings marines after 2 (!).
you lost several scvs scouting, for what? he's going masslings there's nothing to scout (except that hatchery he built in your main wich you failed to scout..). when you're down to that low econ you really dont want to throw away your scvs.
I dont understand why you choose to float away ur rax and go for pure mech, m&m/tank is a way better combo than gol/tank vs both muta and lurk...
you lost the game early on with poor scv micro and when not scouting his proxy hatch, not that much else to it.
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i hardly think i lost the game early on. bad micro? i had 2 rines, no bunker, and held off 10+ lings, losing like, 2 scv? i had 3x as many workers as him at that point. where's the "loss" there?
i was scouting to see if he teched or expo. if he was going 1 base lurker or taking 2 expo i needed to know, i think.
i should have got more marines and took my choke though i think. and ur right, not scouting a proxy hatch is pretty harsh. but after his sunkens went down i still think i should have been ahead at that point, i think i just needed more marines and not lose my tanks
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9931 Posts
"i hardly think i lost the game early on. bad micro? i had 2 rines, no bunker, and held off 10+ lings, losing like, 2 scv? i had 3x as many workers as him at that point. where's the "loss" there?"
first of all, when you micro, consider not only how much you kill with how many losses, but also how fast you do it and how efficiently. you pulled off more scvs than you needed and even when you did many of them did not attack all at once, rather getting themselves killed a few at a time. the end result of that is loss of miners and mining time for no gain. at one point your marines were shooting at your own scvs =\.
however, i think as the others do that you could have still survived had you opted for mm instead of floating away your barracks uselessly. so basically, for future games: consider building placement more carefully (your first bunker was useless in covering the ends of your mineral lines should he attack it; instead, for a safer location, maybe put it inside your mineral line), judge better how many scvs you need to defend against a threat, and think out what units you go better (mm was far more cost effective than tanks in your situation and early game too).
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
you expect him to tech with 3 drones? ... as long as he's making lings he wont be doing anything else after a 4 pool.
your poor early game micro made you lose 1 supply depot and both (!) your barracks and you lost plenty of scvs just not right away, you had about 10 scvs most of the game. you weren't ahead after you killed his sunkens because you had no units and no econ, he built up to 15~ drones without you having any time where you could have attacked him.
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it had been a long time, no reason for me to think he still had only 3 drones. it had been a long time since his lings were doing any damage, and he had proxied i think 3 or 4 sunkens at me, making me think, again, he didnt have 3 drones
my marines were firing at the lings that were killing the depot and barracks. their placement was not ideal for being rushed. maybe by micro you mean i could have repaired them better, which would be true. i think most people build barracks like that or worse though.
i think it's pretty common to go for gas when you get linged, because you want to get an aca and go for the kill. so a bunker to help keep the gas seems reasonable, with marines in the mineral line to defend the raxs.
so losing the raxs was pretty brutal, maybe the worst micro error was not repairing them well enough.
i don't think it's a big deal to stop mining with too many scvs in this situation that you know he has no economy next to you (talking about early on), cuz u cant really afford to lose a single rine at that point.
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
you could've lifted off your barracks instead of letting his lings kill them.. and you sent out scvs like 3 or 4 times while he had been mass-ling attacking/sunking ur base..it's just not possible for him to tech/expand/power drones at the same time as he's attacking you so heavily because he doesnt have enough econ doing an early pool build.
if you're going to bunker you should bunker in the middle of your mineral line and then if he attacks something out of range you take your marines out of the bunker to fire at them and then if he tries to attack your marines you move them back into the bunker, the bunker is there so that he cant actually kill you with lings not to prevent harrass, if you place your bunker in the middle of your minerals and he tries to attack you can easily surround it with peons preventing his lings from attacking.
stopping mining in early game matters a lot more than most people seem to think, when people say 1 zealot harrass etc in early game moving around your peons all over actually makes a big diff (probably bigger than losing 1 peon actually). you did pull away almost all your scvs to repair your bunker etc in his later attacks wich was very unecessery (especially since only like 3 of the 10 you pulled away actually did anything). early on you simply moved them the wrong way, you had (again) like 10 scvs pulled away from mining but only 3 or so of those did anything. stack-move them and then attack or only take so many that they can actually all attack.
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with 4 pool he wont be getting gas units or buildings any time soon. thus he will only have zerglings without foot speed. thus marines will own them if used correctly. scouting is very important. send out scvs earlier if you dont think you can block 4 pools. usually i have 1 marine out by the time lings arrive. i put it in between my scvs and micro the best i can.
if my scouting scv reaches their base, try to kill drones while he is busy microing lings. if he chases your scv, you will have time to build more defense.
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You played perfectly. 4pool > all.
Or just take some advice when you ask for it, if you believe strongly to know allready then dont post. Loosing to fourpool / hatch in your base is clumsy.. So just dont be clumsy
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9931 Posts
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matrix[sin], thanks for the good help. i agree now i should make bunker in the mineral line. that's a good idea afaict. should i have scouted a little earlier (i already scouted somewhat early) so i have a better chance to see a 4pool coming? i was caught completely off guard and zerg was at the 2nd spot i was scouting.
i know stopping mining matters a lot but it's still 4 drones vs 12 scvs, i mean 4pooling fucks them over way more, whereas i can't lose unless my first rines go down, so that's what i meant.
ahk-gosu, i dont think u watched rep or read this thread. as for knowing he wont get gas any time soon. he didnt get gas any time soon. i got tanks because i was being offensive sunkened. by THEN he could have been getting gas units easily. besides, it isn't always an easy call whether the zerg 4 pooled or 7 pooled, for instance, and when u've lost your barracks timing goes completely out theh window.
patriot.dlk and intrigue, shut the fuck up
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9931 Posts
oh okay i'm sorry for pointing out painfully obvious flaws in your play that you didn't like to hear but justify through sorely inexperienced-sounding reasonings
... if you keep on offering excuses and 'better' solutions to everything then you shouldn't lose to a weak fourpool
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mitsy is such a retard. asking for help and then acting like a bitch and refusing to accept it. being a dumbass in pretty much every thread he posts in. sometimes i really believe that he isnt faking his personality and really is like he acts.
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On January 24 2006 11:31 pfff wrote: mitsy is such a retard. asking for help and then acting like a bitch and refusing to accept it. being a dumbass in pretty much every thread he posts in. sometimes i really believe that he isnt faking his personality and really is like he acts.
Finally something we can agree on.
I watched the rep, but everyone already mentioned your most obvious mistakes.
I think you should really just play more. Your micro is very lacking. Try to keep your scv's together in a group always attacking and moving not sitting and waiting to be attacked. Dance those marines better. Also, strategy wise, even once you saw what he was doing you didn't adapt well at all.
I know you won't like to hear it, but play more games and you'll get better at controling your units while macroing and thinking about what to do next.
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most of you are retards. i listened to the good advice. those of you who said stupid things, pretended to know what you were talking about (didnt see rep, didnt read thread) but didnt are the retards. those of u saying stupid shit like patriot and yes, intrigue, saying "yeah hes an idiot", shut the fuck up. -_- who comes to tlnet only to be a dumb dick and stalk me, shut the fuck up. pffff who comes to this thread just to flame me shut the fuck up.
this thread is for: the rep the strategies and mistakes in the rep
NOT for: dumb fags talking about 4pool like they know what happened giving bad advice (speaksinriddles, alphaentity, pockypocky, intrigue, ahk-gosu) dumb fags who have to flame me in every thread not even pretending to know what's going on (patriot, -_-, pfff, patriot's fag boyfriend intrigue)
so hard to understand?
WOW out of a random sampling of 8 TLnetters, ONE motherfucker stayed on topic and was helpful that's 12.5%. sounds about right.
i gave reasons for disagreeing with the advice that i did. no one gave reasons for bitching and moaning about me disagreeing with some of the advice which, imo didnt reflect a watching of the rep and therefore was off topic.
if u dont want to watch the rep, or respond to REASONS that are in this thread, DONT POST. find some other topic to take a dump in. god knows theres plenty of outhouses about. so go poop in those.
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youre such a sad retard in the first ten posts of this thread, yours not including, advice was given. you just kept up with acting like a dumbass so people stopped giving advice and started to notice how you were acting like an ungrateful bitch. honestly, there might be a reason that people go out of their way just to flame you? i really hope the way you act is just some little thing you do to amuse yourself, cuz otherwise youre a really sad stupid person.
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