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 pyrostat Korea (South). August 19 2012 05:56. Posts 70 | Profile # |
how do you beat terran air as zerg consisting of ravens, vikings, bio force, as well as a couple thors?
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/nestea-z-vs-kas-t-iem-gamescom-day-2-group-b/
this game what could have nestea done? even if he tech switched into ultras, that would be a stupid choice considering he had all the tools he needed such as maraders and thors to counter.
how can zerg counter this, especially after patch soon to come which buffs ravens and nerfs zerg creep spread to make things worse?
a few problems i see with your reply. See his ravens aren't clumped. Few are in the front, few are behind. Fungal doesn't work. With the insane range vikings have, the only person getting damaged will be the zerg's unit if they don't engage. Also if you split, what's going to kill stimmed bio units? Nothing. Nothing at all. I have been also thinking what can deal with this for almost 2 months. The best i've got was massing spores. But with marines harrassing at all fronts, unlike pvz, you cannot just mass spores here.
a few problems i see with your reply. See his ravens aren't clumped. Few are in the front, few are behind. Fungal doesn't work. With the insane range vikings have, the only person getting damaged will be the zerg's unit if they don't engage. Also if you split, what's going to kill stimmed bio units? Marines beat split BLS Nothing. Nothing at all. I have been also thinking what can deal with this for almost 2 months. The best i've got was massing spores. But with marines harrassing at all fronts, unlike pvz, you do not have enough incom to just mass spores here.
See terran has these things called Mules and ocs, enabling them to not have nearly as much supplies in food, and this doesn't require super late game as you have mentioned. With the range of siege tanks, pfs, and vikings, defending is a joke as terran. I don't see a problem not being able to defend against zerg in a defence position as terran. Now if indeed the clock is ticking against the zerg, does that mean you consider and notice a slight imbalance there? Now even then, terran is being buffed, while zerg is being nerfed. Do you believe that it should be the other way around?
To be honest though, did you forget that ravens in that numbers can still kill ground units just as fast? especially if they are clumped. you can't just split up your ultras when attacking because they are meelee. They clump up as they attack. Especially zerglings, they will die so fast. With PFS, siege tanks, and maruaders, plus ravens to add to that, no way ultras are going to even touch a terran army.
thank you. |
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| NeonFox August 19 2012 06:07. Posts 2355 | Profile # |
| Might want to edit your post a bit, something went wrong it seems like you're having a conversation with yourself or something. Do you have a replay where you face this and lose as well? It might help. |
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| netherh United Kingdom. August 19 2012 06:41. Posts 266 | Profile Blog # |
Infestors - good units.
Viking "insane range" is the same as fungal range (9) if I'm not mistaken.
Fungal all the things, neural parasite all the things (seeker missile all the things), infested terran all the things.
Assuming you're talking about that Metropolis game, Nestea kept sending small armies to their death and never reinforcing his brood lords. He also made too many banes, and nowhere near enough infestors. |
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| pyrostat Korea (South). August 19 2012 06:46. Posts 70 | Profile # |
On August 19 2012 06:41 netherh wrote:
Infestors - good units.
Viking "insane range" is the same as fungal range (9) if I'm not mistaken.
Fungal all the things, neural parasite all the things (seeker missile all the things), infested terran all the things.
Assuming you're talking about that Metropolis game, Nestea kept sending small armies to their death and never reinforcing his brood lords. He also made too many banes, and nowhere near enough infestors.
won't infested terrans die immediately to HSM? Also there should be better replays. Just picked this one. Could you link me to a video that demonstrates what you have just said? |
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| Yonnua United Kingdom. August 19 2012 07:09. Posts 1037 | Profile Blog # |
| Bomber v Freaky game 2 on Atlantis Spaceship from last season's Code A is a great example of how to deal with it. Freaky went for pretty much pure infestor and just completely shut down the raven play with fungals, infested terrans, harassment and some neurals. If you have the subscription to watch it, it's a helpful game. |
| | PartinG | NaNiwa | Creator | Mvp | Bomber | Oz | FanTaSy | JangBi |
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| netherh United Kingdom. August 19 2012 07:15. Posts 266 | Profile Blog # |
On August 19 2012 06:46 pyrostat wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 06:41 netherh wrote:
Infestors - good units.
Viking "insane range" is the same as fungal range (9) if I'm not mistaken.
Fungal all the things, neural parasite all the things (seeker missile all the things), infested terran all the things.
Assuming you're talking about that Metropolis game, Nestea kept sending small armies to their death and never reinforcing his brood lords. He also made too many banes, and nowhere near enough infestors.
won't infested terrans die immediately to HSM? Also there should be better replays. Just picked this one. Could you link me to a video that demonstrates what you have just said?
Well, infested terrans are just for spamming after everything's been fungalled.
There was a game on entombed valley, where the terran was in the bottom left, and went ravens and died a horrible death, but I can't for the life of me remember who was playing or what tournament sorry.
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| Willzzz United Kingdom. August 19 2012 07:29. Posts 684 | Profile # |
On August 19 2012 06:46 pyrostat wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 06:41 netherh wrote:
Infestors - good units.
Viking "insane range" is the same as fungal range (9) if I'm not mistaken.
Fungal all the things, neural parasite all the things (seeker missile all the things), infested terran all the things.
Assuming you're talking about that Metropolis game, Nestea kept sending small armies to their death and never reinforcing his brood lords. He also made too many banes, and nowhere near enough infestors.
won't infested terrans die immediately to HSM? Also there should be better replays. Just picked this one. Could you link me to a video that demonstrates what you have just said?
Sounds like a waste of HSM to me. Remember HSM is really expensive in energy, even if a raven is at full energy it can only cast 1 missile, it's not like fungal where each infestor has multiple casts. Also the range of HSM is tiny, it's only 6 which is way less than fungal and less than neural as well.
Also ITs are usually cast underneath the terran army, he isn't going to HSM his own units. |
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| MaxSteel August 19 2012 07:59. Posts 78 | Profile Blog # |
As a Terran, I feel like Antiga Shipyard is simply too Terran favored in this sense.
Ever since the patch (a month after it) every TvZ game I went for BC/Raven, and very few high diam or low master zergs actually responded correctly, but those who did at least had a chance due to maps like Cloud Kingdom being so large and not that easy to cover expansions after the 3rd with tanks.
On Antiga, you can simply cross the map in two, by covering just 2 chokes. To be honest, I'm sure zerg mass drops and Nydus's at key timinogs would, if not be the answer, than at least give zerg a way better chance at killing turtling Terrans, or at least denying any expansion beyond the 3rd or 4th (and pushing right afterwards, having up to twice as many expansions). Transitioning into BC/Raven takes too much time with 6 Gas, and make it even longer if you went for Bio or Mech.
So zergs need to actually use their mobility tools (drops, nydus) and make things happen, mainly either denying Gas or killing off Starports with something like Infestor-Ultra-Ling drops (or Roach-Hydra-Infestor), following all this with a BL-Curruptor-Infestor-Ultra push (some mix of those units). |
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| Qikz United Kingdom. August 19 2012 09:35. Posts 6694 | Profile # |
As someone who just played a game on Cloud Kingdom one of the easiest maps to split with tanks I transitioned into my usual air composition but this time added a bunch more ravens. He tried mass corrupter but due to my crazy amounts of PDD he never got a chance to hit my units.
One thing I will say though is I've lost everything to fungals before. Fungals and Infested Terrans decimate air armies if you've got enough infestors/energy.
EDIT: In terms of the game in question, I think mass infestor is still the answer.Last edit: 2012-08-19 09:36:18 |
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| TheMadTecha Australia. August 19 2012 10:55. Posts 7 | Profile # |
properly done the terran sky army is nearly unbeatable in a direct fight (unless you fungel everything and split your units incrediably) However, it is very open to drops and nydus attacks to the main especially if the terran hasn;t build pfs everwhere.
I watched that game and i believe that nestea was very tied and not playing his best which was a big contributor to why he lost. None the less, if kas had phased out most his bio for a full air army plus ghosts he would of won earlier.
/* note mvp did a similar thing to nestea a day later and forced an insta-gg when his nestea clumped his army ans was taken out by 3 seekers */ |
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| pyrostat Korea (South). August 19 2012 12:45. Posts 70 | Profile # |
On August 19 2012 10:55 TheMadTecha wrote:
properly done the terran sky army is nearly unbeatable in a direct fight (unless you fungel everything and split your units incrediably) However, it is very open to drops and nydus attacks to the main especially if the terran hasn;t build pfs everwhere.
I watched that game and i believe that nestea was very tied and not playing his best which was a big contributor to why he lost. None the less, if kas had phased out most his bio for a full air army plus ghosts he would of won earlier.
/* note mvp did a similar thing to nestea a day later and forced an insta-gg when his nestea clumped his army ans was taken out by 3 seekers */
now like i said in my post, mvp didn't go all air. He had PFS, siege tanks, bio forces going everywhere dropping. No way zerg is going to win a base race. Terran has the stronger army. The more ground army zerg has in supply, the more likely they are going to lose. |
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| Belial88 United States. August 19 2012 14:42. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
Ultralisks.
Mvp only had 16 marauders, 2 thors, a handful of marines, not many siege tanks. Nestea threw away way too many small numbers of ultras, if he had gone for a large attack of 10+ ultras, with infestor support, he could have done a lot more damage. 3 ultras can take down a PF even if it's being repaired by 30 SCVs. By going around where all the army is located (ie siege tanks sieged up or more than 1 PF), you can do a lot of damage.
Broodlords sure aren't the answer though.
Mass IT spam with bl/corruptor can also do a lot. In the first major broodlord battle (second broodlord army), nestea had zero infestors. If he had 10 infestors with that army, instead of a ling/bane and 2 ultras, he would have rolled that army. It takes a TON of ravens on top of 15+ vikings to really shred a broodlord/infestor army with really aggressive IT spam. I'd recommend that as a Zerg, you should aim for a broodlord/infestor army, and if Terran is massing viking/raven, just spam a ton of IT while getting ready to tech switch into mass ultras.
In that game, if Nestea simply had a pure ultra/infestor army, or 10 infestors supporting his broodlord army, he would have rolled through Kas, who was barely hanging on. As it was, nestea just sort of tried to go middle of the road and do both, and ended up doing the worst of both.
Then nestea attacked with like 30 banelings (a terrible choice against ravens.... nestea seems to always mass banelings and corruptors instead of infestors in lategame), 2 ultras, and a bunch of corruptors, against a raven based army with a ton of vikings. No air force of zerg is going to bust a raven/viking army unless there are a million IT spam, and terran can get to a point where even IT spam isn't enough. If all that gas was ultras, he really could have just won the game. Part of the problem also was that nestea never expanded again, he seemed to think the game was over for a long time but his constant loses of entire air armies let kas stay in it.
nestea eventually made a bunch of ultras, but it was too little too late, and had zero infestor supoprt.Last edit: 2012-08-19 14:47:54 |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
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| SirPinky August 19 2012 15:54. Posts 232 | Profile # |
This thread should be removed. I was about to reply to it until I read the last 2-3 paragraphs: It's turns into a monlogue shrouded with OP and Imba references.
Your mind was made up before posting this. I could offer countless references of drops/nydus/tech switches zerg could have done mid-game to have a better advantage late game; something went wrong if you let Terran get PF's all over the map. But I'm sure "but Terran has mules" would be your reply (much like it was suggested in your post). Terran is significantly the least played race for a reason, please think about this before posting these one-sided, obviously biased topics. |
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| ThePlayer33 Australia. August 19 2012 16:34. Posts 2377 | Profile # |
On August 19 2012 15:54 SirPinky wrote:
This thread should be removed. I was about to reply to it until I read the last 2-3 paragraphs: It's turns into a monlogue shrouded with OP and Imba references.
Your mind was made up before posting this. I could offer countless references of drops/nydus/tech switches zerg could have done mid-game to have a better advantage late game; something went wrong if you let Terran get PF's all over the map. But I'm sure "but Terran has mules" would be your reply (much like it was suggested in your post). Terran is significantly the least played race for a reason, please think about this before posting these one-sided, obviously biased topics.
coming from a guy who talks about his real life in sc2 sections, don't contribute if you don't want to. please think about this before posting these one-sided, obviously rage-fueled responses. |
| | | Idra | YuGiOh | Leenock | Coca | |
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| toadahlmn August 19 2012 16:40. Posts 5 | Profile # |
| lol u should've seen the game of mvp vs nestea g2 mvp just spammed hsm and nestea clumped EVERYTHING. |
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| SiNKami United States. August 19 2012 16:49. Posts 1757 | Profile Blog # |
| Terran players NEED scvs to mine gas. Also, the buff isnt really changing anything. just fungal the ravens. iirc, fungal has longer range than hsm. |
| | Im black. TrainerRedNA.382 "It's not about how many fights you've won, it's about who you've fought" |
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| BanditX United States. August 19 2012 17:07. Posts 78 | Profile # |
The fact that you even felt compelled to make this thread show that something about the Infestor needs to change. It's the problem and the answer. You question is, "How to beat Ravens with some ground support because it beats BL/Infestor/Corruptor." The answer is, more fungal. TvZ has become stupid since the queen range change.
And, as a note, Ravens don't actually beat Brood/Corruptor/Infestor because... well, Infestors. Last edit: 2012-08-19 17:08:45 |
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| Matiz_pl Poland. August 19 2012 18:18. Posts 121 | Profile # |
Hey, I'm zerg co-creator of this guide about skyterran:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359499
I've been practicing for about 1 month vs skyterran play a lot. We figured out that the best answer is probably mass corruptors and mass infestors + 3-4 broodlords (vs planetaries/tanks/whatever). Infestors can throw 1-2 fungals but usually it doesn't work too well as guys based on their theorycrafting claim. The answer are infested terrans. If you have 15-20 infestors you can throw shitload of them under the army of opponent. He can't HSM them because hsm also kills his own units. BC's kill them, but not so quickly and it draws fire from corruptors which can finish the battle. The key is to not allow him to escape once u throw 100 infested terrans. Upgrade for their attack is insanely important.
Neural parasite doesn't work too well, the only scenario i can imagine when NP is decent is np-ing opponent's raven and hsming his whole army but i dont think its reliable answer. Fungal in theory is good but in practice it's not that good, your opponent will most likely have brain and will split his units and he still has yamatos and HSM's.
Ah and ultras can be good answer too, but it depends on how many planetaries and other anti-ultra things(units/buildings) he has. Last edit: 2012-08-19 18:19:50 |
| | "Competitive gaming consists of one and only one rule. You use what wins. " - FuumaMonou |
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| LavaLava United States. August 19 2012 18:33. Posts 235 | Profile # |
On August 19 2012 06:41 netherh wrote:
Infestors - good units.
Viking "insane range" is the same as fungal range (9) if I'm not mistaken.
Fungal all the things, neural parasite all the things (seeker missile all the things), infested terran all the things.
Assuming you're talking about that Metropolis game, Nestea kept sending small armies to their death and never reinforcing his brood lords. He also made too many banes, and nowhere near enough infestors.
Do not attempt to Neural Parasite a Raven in combat to shoot a seeker missile. This is coming from a Terran. It never works. You'll just get all your infestors killed, and you'll maybe damage one other raven. You know how people say Seeker Missile is easy to dodge? Now imagine if Seeker Missile had a 2 second delay with a giant tentacle reaching across the screen... Yeah, if it had any chance of hitting you, it has just about zero chance of doing damage to the Terran.
It doesn't work. |
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| Willzzz United Kingdom. August 19 2012 19:27. Posts 684 | Profile # |
On August 19 2012 18:33 LavaLava wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 06:41 netherh wrote:
Infestors - good units.
Viking "insane range" is the same as fungal range (9) if I'm not mistaken.
Fungal all the things, neural parasite all the things (seeker missile all the things), infested terran all the things.
Assuming you're talking about that Metropolis game, Nestea kept sending small armies to their death and never reinforcing his brood lords. He also made too many banes, and nowhere near enough infestors.
Do not attempt to Neural Parasite a Raven in combat to shoot a seeker missile. This is coming from a Terran. It never works. You'll just get all your infestors killed, and you'll maybe damage one other raven. You know how people say Seeker Missile is easy to dodge? Now imagine if Seeker Missile had a 2 second delay with a giant tentacle reaching across the screen... Yeah, if it had any chance of hitting you, it has just about zero chance of doing damage to the Terran. It doesn't work.
If seeker is easy to dodge it's because you always know when it's coming due it's short range, why else would raven's be moving forward on their own?
However if you neural a raven that is already in range of his raven friends then it is much harder to dodge.
Hell even if you miss completely then it's still worth it because it's one less missile that he can cast on you. Not to mention the panic it causes.
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