Hi, i'm a high platinum protoss struggling hard against terran, with not much idea why.
Ok, i'm going through unimaginably demoralizing games against terran. I'm doing great in PvZ and in PvP.
Ok thing is, i must be doing something wrong. I just can't figure what it is, and since i can't afford coaching, ill be happy if you guys could help with these 3 replays:
(I'm sorry but you have to scroll down and fill a caption, as i was not able to find a site to upload for like an hour. The caption is not so hard though, thanks)
In this game(obviously that's not really demuslim, but he did have ridiculous apm for platinum), i went for 1gate exp which i use all the time recently, as i found it's the only way to keep up with terran, and basically i feel like i am beating all the early ~7 minute marine pushes without a problem. i continue with 2 gates and then tech to colossus. Maybe it was a bit slow but i don't think that was my problem this game. I just don't get it. I guess i got out macro'd but i feel like i played decent dunno. Would like to hear advice.
This game by the time i could send an observer to scout and see he has only 1 base and not getting another, i already had mine down. I got a bunch of stalkers to deflect any banshee play. I saw the reactor on the barracks and the tech lab on the factory as well, so i figured i'd go for stalkers to counter banshees and marines, with a couple of sentries to help, and get colossus to manage with the tanks so i could get some siege like unit myself, as immortals would melt to marines. I don't see where i went wrong.
This game he went for a mass banshee build. I suppose i should have went for a different tech route after i scouted the 2 starports. Maybe high templars + blink stalkers? He had a planetary in the natural to prevent any counter attacks... I found that out the hard way. I couldn't engage his banshees with my stalkers since i had too few, so i took a huge hit and couldn't complete the switch to templars and it was over. To feedback + storm and thus handle both marines and banshees? I guess that's the way. Am i doing the opening right? Is this idea is ok as well?
This game i figured i'll get colossus faster. And scout more. So i did. He dropped my main and managed to get my cyber core. So i had 1 stalker left, but a nice army other wise. So we were both on 2 bases for a while. I rebuilt my cyber core, made a few stalkers to counter vikings, and when i saw he has a third i went for an attack, figuring i took some medivacs so i should be in fine shape to attack with 3 colossi, my plan was to take a third while attacking. His vikings simply took out all my colossus suiciding into my stuff, and then i had no splash damage. Had i not lost the cyber i would have more stalkers and deflect that, but its nearly impossible to not lose a tech structure to double medivac marauder drop. It's either the cyber, and then no stalkers, or the robo bay, and then no colossus, or the robo and then no immortals / colossi/ observers. *i usually don't type gg when i'm not congratulated with a gl or hf or gg.
So... What am i doing wrong? Is my build bad? Are my reads bad? Macro, micro, anything else?
Your thoughts please, and thanks a lot for reading through
Last edit: 2012-08-19 08:33:55
MysteryMeat1 United States. August 19 2012 08:56. Posts 1255
So, I'm the same level as you, but here are my thoughts on your first game. I thought your micro, especially in the early game, was pretty good. A major issue was that you cut probes at a 2 base all-in level, then took a third, so you had a third with no saturation for a while. He also had his third a long time before you, so these two things combined meant he had a much better economy. Also, you didn't have enough production for 3 bases, you really want to add more gateways.
Charge/templar tech seemed quite late also, but I thought the main issue was (as you said) macro. If you sort that out, you should be able to tech up faster.
Haven't watched your other replays, I don't actually know the "correct" counter to mass banshees, but generally storms/archons are quite good vs mass air (blink is good too, but more for deflecting pressure until you can get your storms than straight up fighting). Phoenix are good vs banshees but vikings are good vs phoenix, I don't know whether they're good to make in the situation or not.
Upload the games to drop.sc (I think thats the right sight). makes it much easier for people to watch the replays.
I tried. It doesn't work :/, tried many replay sites none work...
Thanks lpunatic, i think my macro needs to be better, but i'm pretty sure its my build that is screwing it up. I just can't find good builds anywhere, including team liquid... I think that in order to play a macro game against terran, there's a ton of things you have to learn because terran has around 10 different openings which are all devastating if you dont know to read them... I just have no idea how to read and how to respond correctly, i'm lost in this match up -.-
10 minutes, he's at 41 SCVs with a 1 rax expand (theoretical limit is 50, 46 isn't very hard). You were at 39 probes with a 1 gate expand despite using a lot of chrono on probes. I don't know the theoretical limit for protoss at 10 mins with a 1 gate expand but I'm guessing it's higher than 50.
He was maxed at 17 minutes with 2/2 finishing a little later and had 3+ bases and 64 SCVs while you were at 160 supply and at 57 probes on 3 bases. You didn't even crack 100 supply until the 13+ minute mark while he was at 130 then. Then, at the last engagement, he had a superior army that perfectly countered yours and he managed to EMP everything. He outmacroed you and you didn't scout or counter his ghosts so he won because he played better.
Work on your macro.
Fly Jaedong, fly!
Mr. Bojangles United States. August 19 2012 09:37. Posts 15
If you're looking for a different build, which is also very effective, take a look at Day 9's daily on Parting's PvT. It's a solid, flexible strategy, it may even take a few Terrans off guard as Toss tends to tech up to Col first before chargelots/HT's. The strategy is for a terran that fast expands, and it's designed to bust the front. But if you don't want to attack, you'll have an expo up, with a decent production and you can just play the game out normally. I do it a lot, and if Terran doesn't go for that 7 min push, I usually bust the front 90% of the time.
I would also watch the daily because it has some in depth thought on the actual match up. When Toss is at it's strongest/weakest, when it's a good time to push on the terran and when it's time to fall back and defend. It may help you out with other stuff.
If I can get the replays to work I'll take a gander at a few of them and then put some input on it.
10 minutes, he's at 41 SCVs with a 1 rax expand (theoretical limit is 50, 46 isn't very hard). You were at 39 probes with a 1 gate expand despite using a lot of chrono on probes. I don't know the theoretical limit for protoss at 10 mins with a 1 gate expand but I'm guessing it's higher than 50.
He was maxed at 17 minutes with 2/2 finishing a little later and had 3+ bases and 64 SCVs while you were at 160 supply and at 57 probes on 3 bases. You didn't even crack 100 supply until the 13+ minute mark while he was at 130 then. Then, at the last engagement, he had a superior army that perfectly countered yours and he managed to EMP everything. He outmacroed you and you didn't scout or counter his ghosts so he won because he played better.
Work on your macro.
Ok. Look what i wrote:
I guess i got out macro'd but i feel like i played decent dunno. Would like to hear advice.
I know that. The question is why. Playing PvT is more complex than you imagine... I now saw a daily on PvT opening problems focusing on a special style that huk, sase and naniwa are using. It seems to fit perfect to my style. http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-468-p1-huk-and-sase-fantastic-pvt-openings-6162409 Please try to be more constructive than to just say "he played better work on your macro". Anyway-
If you're looking for a different build, which is also very effective, take a look at Day 9's daily on Parting's PvT. It's a solid, flexible strategy, it may even take a few Terrans off guard as Toss tends to tech up to Col first before chargelots/HT's. The strategy is for a terran that fast expands, and it's designed to bust the front. But if you don't want to attack, you'll have an expo up, with a decent production and you can just play the game out normally. I do it a lot, and if Terran doesn't go for that 7 min push, I usually bust the front 90% of the time.
I would also watch the daily because it has some in depth thought on the actual match up. When Toss is at it's strongest/weakest, when it's a good time to push on the terran and when it's time to fall back and defend. It may help you out with other stuff.
If I can get the replays to work I'll take a gander at a few of them and then put some input on it.
Thanks for the advice. I actually found what i was looking for here :
I really want to open with templars as i dislike colossus in general, but the problem is, when you do that your opponent will get a ghost academy, and will be able to produce medivacs freely without concern. While opening with a colossus first, your opponent will have to get some vikings, which will lower his medivac count, and when you finally make the tech switch to templars, he will often be stuck with a bunch of vikings taking up supply. Plus if you switch the colossus late game, terran will probably have at least a couple of starports and will be able to produce at least 4 vikings at a time.That's just how i think about it. I will definitely check that daily as parting had many amazing pvts in the recent past. Thanks
It's a ton to study but i really want to get this matchup. I'll post again if ill need more help as i expect some problems since all of this knowledge is completely new to me, and ill be glad i could get some feedback. Thanks for everyone who commented
10 minutes, he's at 41 SCVs with a 1 rax expand (theoretical limit is 50, 46 isn't very hard). You were at 39 probes with a 1 gate expand despite using a lot of chrono on probes. I don't know the theoretical limit for protoss at 10 mins with a 1 gate expand but I'm guessing it's higher than 50.
He was maxed at 17 minutes with 2/2 finishing a little later and had 3+ bases and 64 SCVs while you were at 160 supply and at 57 probes on 3 bases. You didn't even crack 100 supply until the 13+ minute mark while he was at 130 then. Then, at the last engagement, he had a superior army that perfectly countered yours and he managed to EMP everything. He outmacroed you and you didn't scout or counter his ghosts so he won because he played better.
I guess i got out macro'd but i feel like i played decent dunno. Would like to hear advice.
I know that. The question is why. Playing PvT is more complex than you imagine... I now saw a daily on PvT opening problems focusing on a special style that huk, sase and naniwa are using. It seems to fit perfect to my style. http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-468-p1-huk-and-sase-fantastic-pvt-openings-6162409 Please try to be more constructive than to just say "he played better work on your macro". Anyway-
I'm being constructive. Make more units and go kill him before he gets ghosts. Queue up probes, 3 at a time and try to reach at least 50. Then attack at around 150 supply. I played a game vs. the AI and at 10 minutes, I had 63 probes, 96 supply, 3 zealots and 9 stalkers, 1 observer, with a colossus and thermal lance on the way. I probably should have stopped probe production at 50 or something and gotten a faster third but what do I know about playing protoss anyway
If you want constructive advice that doesn't revolve around macro, try to get faster HTs. I personally think that colossi are shit in PvT, as HTs (when used properly) counter every single unit in the terran deathball while the colossi just get murdered by vikings.
High Templars are awesome and should improve your winrate at your level and above. I certainly mostly lose to them but only if the toss gets colossi first. So 2-4 colossi, then HT.
Fly Jaedong, fly!
ODKStevez Ireland. August 20 2012 03:31. Posts 1176
Upload the games to drop.sc (I think thats the right sight). makes it much easier for people to watch the replays.
I tried. It doesn't work :/, tried many replay sites none work...
Thanks lpunatic, i think my macro needs to be better, but i'm pretty sure its my build that is screwing it up. I just can't find good builds anywhere, including team liquid... I think that in order to play a macro game against terran, there's a ton of things you have to learn because terran has around 10 different openings which are all devastating if you dont know to read them... I just have no idea how to read and how to respond correctly, i'm lost in this match up -.-
Most of the replay sites are messed up due to patch 1.5. Replayfu is messed too. They will probably update with a bit of time.
I'm also Plat lvl Protoss, but i feel most comfortable in PvT so i try to tell you what i always try to think about maybe some ideas fit you. I assume that terran is going for a 1rax fe. 1. Of course Probe Production as the others already pointed out. Easy thing to fix and maybe this was only a problem in this game. 2. First build Observers (2 or 3) out of your Robo, so you can scout the terran, then you can see if they are gooing for some kind of 6rax or standard 3rax fac+ starport and you can spot drops. 3. Immediatley add the robotics bay, if you can, and no pressure is comming then you should have colossus if the 2/4 medivac timing is coming. 4. After that add more gates/1 forge as you did and try to avoid warping in units as much as you can without being to greedy
btw i also liked this video but skip the pressure part and dont warp in units if you dont have to, because i feel like it does not work. Hope I could help.
“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” - Albert Einstein
Hello, I watched the first replay so everything I say is based on that. I would have watched the others, but I'm lazy and it was such a hassle downloading from that site.
You say you get outmacroed but you don't know why so I'll tell you: 1) You get supply blocked more than your opponent - Easy fix: Build pylons, yes it is as easy as that :-)
2) You cut probes Now cutting probes is OK if you do it for a good reason. If you are planning a 2 base timing or all in, then fine. Obviously you weren't so the only conclusion I can draw is that you have the wrong priorities. Just make sure you always build probes. Watch the replay with the production screen open, you see how often you miss probes? You can start cutting probes again at around 70 depending on what you want to do, but most of the time you'd want around 78 of those probers running around probing before you are happy.
Being behind in workers against a terran is something you should think of as unacceptable. Because of chrono you should be ahead, the terran catches up thanks to mules, that's the way the game works.
3) Late third. You can argue that taking an earlier third is risky, but if you are more active with your scouting you should have seen the terrans third and dropped your own. In this case you didn't scout it for a long time and he got even more ahead. So you are being put in pretty though situation where I see two main ways out of it. You can do a 2 base push and GG if you cant kill the Terrans third and make a huge dent in his army and economy. Or you can try to max out on 3 bases which was what you did in this specific game. Becuase you are behind this next point is crucial!
4) What is the terran doing? What you didn't do was keeping track of the Terran army and he got into a really good position, once again you should think of this as unacceptable. You had an observer idling in really weird position that could have helped you to keep track of his movements. You just can't let him wander about doing whatever he pleases with out you knowing about it. Being behind because of the macro hiccups, it would have been hard as it was holding that attack. That's if you had good scouting and knew where he was going to attack, but now I would say it was close to impossible.
You need to be in a good position as a protoss player, you have to be proactive especially when you are playing a collosus based style. Once you get charge and can spread templars around you can play a more reactive style, but for collosus play it just doesn't work. You have to be prepared.
I hope it helps a little bit.
Some thoughs on the HT vs Collosus ~ Collosus makes you less mobile, more prone to losing to pushes that you haven't prepared for and is harder do defend against multipronged attacks and drops. However, just by getting collosus you put pressure on the terran player as it opens up a huge variety of timing pushes and even all ins. You can now dictate the tempo of the game if you want to by being aggressive and using your range 9 to kill supply depot walls and bunkers or just play a macro game.
HT makes you safer and its easier to survive multipronged attacks but you have no say in whats going on in the game. The terran will decide whether he wants to play a macro game or not and you just have to fall in. You cant really bust him without collosus if he has good sim city which means any 2 base timing or all in is pretty weak. You'll most likely end up in a scenario where you will be relying on having good templar spread and flanking with templars during battles or you'll lose to terrans with good ghost control.
Eventually you want both, how you start the game is just down to personal preference.
Last edit: 2012-08-20 04:19:54
rdub49erfn United States. August 20 2012 04:16. Posts 8
Hey. Masters toss here. I wasn't able to watch the replays because that site is very hard to download replays from. But based on your descriptions I feel I can give some adequate advice.
First, games 2 and 3 are very specialized Terran builds with very special responses (#2 is the dreaded 1-1-1 and #3 is a two port banshee). You won't be able to win if you just do the intuitive thing. People have written extensive guides on the subjects (for example, immortals zealots and a coupld of sentries are actually a great way to stop the 1-1-1 even though it's not intuitive. Don't overmake stalkers even though you think you need them for the banshees). You need to scout these early (with your first chrono'd observer for example) and respond accordingly.
Games 1 and 4 are the ones that are more indicative of general PvT so I would concentrate on those. Game one soudns like you lost because of bad macro. Make sure you never get supply blocked and are always building 2 probes at a time (1 from each nexus). If you 1 gate expand you should usually have 3+ more probes than Terran has SCV's (each orbital is worth around 3 probes). I couldn't watch, but I assume there were a lot of times you weren't producting probes either because you forgot or because you got supply blocked. Also, I would wager your nexus energy got pretty high. You can always chrono probes!
It sounds like you lost game #4 because of the drop (although possibly bad micro). You need to have good map control. If you control the watch tower or have an observer near his army, you can just put your army in your main so the drop won't do damage.
Sorry I could't watch the replays and be of more help...
I can handle terran spectacularly. I strongly recommend this to all protoss that are having trouble in PvT. Seriously, study this build. Although it's hard at first, and not intuitive at all, it's amazing. It counters 1-1-1, 7 minute marine push, medivac timing, stim/combat shields/+1 timing, just about everything terran can throw at you. This is a genius build, absolutely amazingly calculated. It's what got naniwa to the gsl round of 8. It gives you scouting in a very genuine way. Anyone with PvT trouble should really watch that day9 daily. Using this build only for the third time, i was able to beat my practice partner, which is medium - high diamond, and a very good player. I was having hell before that :D
yesterday I had a very similar mass banshee game, the way I countered is with double stargate to get a lot of phoenix and blink stalkers, even if vikings destroy phoenix you can easily kill them with stalkers and that also means that he will produce less banshee, here's the replay http://drop.sc/241210
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stardin Israel. August 19 2012 08:23. Posts 88
