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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. | avilo United States. August 19 2012 11:07. Posts 3234 | Profile Blog # |
I am making another thread about a balance/design decision, so please do not jump on my back too hard before reading through.
This time I wanted to bring up the raven buff blizzard has recently proposed and describe issues with TvZ and you will note by the end that a raven speed buff does nothing to address any of the core balance concerns.
Recently, after months of diminishing Terran tournament results as well TvZ balance issues have become obvious to the point that blizzard has acknowledged that Zerg is favored in the match up right now.
The raven has been pointed to as an answer to "lategame," being brought up in many discussions, as well as blizzard releasing news that they are planning to buff the raven to help Terrans lategame.
This thread will be about discussing blizzard's proposed raven buff, and how it does not actually do anything for balance at all, and how they can look at the raven to make it useful, as well as other issues that are basically plaguing the match-up.
There are a few core issues to why so many Terrans, including pro korean Terran players are suddenly being beaten handily by inferior Zergs, most often when the game goes to lategame.
1) Raven HSM can be cost effective if the opponent clumps up broodlord/infestor, but you need about a 3 minute wait time to ever get HSM and you have to perfectly predict your opponent 100% committing to broodlord/infestor/corruptor. The problem: time, efficiency, fungal growth.
No one is really arguing that ravens aren't the answer to TvZ lategame. What I will argue here is that the reason ravens don't work even when you do build them is because fungal growth many times locks down ravens making it so you cannot HSM (regardless of how well you split). I will also argue that the amount of time, research cost, and energy for the HSM is not appropriate or proportional or balanced for what the HSM is supposed to be able to do.
Templar/infestors are able to become useful 100% right when they pop out in the form of either feedbacks, archons, fungal, or IT. Ravens are a gamble and incredible risk because of the time necessary to make them pay off with HSMs, and even in the case you do get an HSM, if your raven is fungalled you suddenly have a paper weight in terms of an investment. Then the ravens die, that's -200 gas for TErran and the infestors are able to burrow and get away.
A raven speed buff does zero to address these issues because the problem is and never will be raven speed. The problem is how fungal growth pins down ravens making HSM unusable, and the amount of time necessary to put ravens into play and make them pay themselves off.
2) The queen buff. The queen range buff has been controversial, for obvious reasons. Blizzard recently has acknowledged that creep spread is incredibly powerful but I want to go over why creep has come into the forefront as a balance concern in zvt.
Everyone knows how Zerg works. Their economy with larva inject can grow exponentially, faster than both Terran and Protoss in theory. The catch? You can only get this super economy if you are able to drone, drone, drone unhindered.
Why has creepspread become such an issue? Well, it's a factor of many things. The queen buff (many dubb it the "queendralisk" nowadays) allows Zergs to make a unit that requires no larva, can accumulate heals, and also can spread creep - creep which helps deny a lot of timing attacks by simply being on the map giving vision/time to react.
Pre-queen buff, creep was more easily able to be controlled with hellions that could kite queens, allowing Terran to keep Zerg's economy in check. Ever since the queen buff, you now see queens holding off virtually all aggression in the first 10 minutes of the game to the point that Terrans have indeed been trying equivalent "greed" builds but all of these greed builds naturally lend themselves towards a lategame TvZ, which right now, as mentionted above - the raven is a gamble due to the amount of preparation time required to pay itself off.
The queen preventing hellions denying creep...allows more creep spread...allows denial of attacks...allow all larva to be used on drones until Zerg can power 100% units/tech...all of this snowballs to the point where Terran "has to do damage" but cannot due to the reaction time creep spread allows to deny attacks + the queens themselves.
3) Fungal growth/infestor
I believe this one is another core issue for late game, not only with TvZ but PvZ as well (yeh, as a random masters player I can talk a bit about this one too).
Broodlord infestor is basically the super army in both lategame TvZ/PvZ. The problem is not how strong broodlords are per se, it's the combination of fungal growth locking down stalkers/units, as well as fungalling vikings/ravens.
Fungal growth completely negates any possible micromanagement from Protoss/Terrans and simply makes the game into a game of running away from the fungal growth, or in the Zerg's case hitting 1 fungal growth means you 100% force an engagement because the opponent cannot flee or use their units.
For TvZ, a lot of lategame air vs air battles turn into "dodging the 1 fungal growth" to the point every pro terran will scan everywhere when engaging brood/corruptor with vikings/ravens to see where the infestors are. 1 fungal results in a chain of 5-10 more fungals can often times mean the end of a game or losing a large expensive chunk of your army for free. In Terran's case, that means their AA is gone from 1 fungal landing into chain fungals, in Protoss's case it's many times a ton of blink stalkers that simply will never be able to reach the broodlords, or archons being trapped in place.
The infestor is not OP per se, but the stunning effect of fungal is quite problematic in every match-up.
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The above essentially describes what has happened with TvZ. The raven speed buff will not change a thing because the above issues are the core issues. It does not matter how fast your raven is if it gets fungalled. You can build ravens but never have them guaranteed to pay themselves off like infestors/templar are able to because of the current HSM energy/time/research requirements.
Blizzard has said they are nerfing creep spread. They are looking at the raven obviously. What I would suggest and bring up for discussion is to tweak the raven hsm energy/upgrade research times/build times/tweak the splash+damage accordingly and make it so these units do not end up as paper weights so often like they do.
To be honest, at this point what would be best for the game period (including ZvP) is to revert the queen change. The overlord speed buff was an excellent change, giving zerg a better scouting option, but the queen change has proven over the last 2-4 months to be too much - perhaps it's time to acknowlege a mistake.
But if blizzard does not want to go the route of reverting the change, they need to buff the raven or tweak something else in some way. A raven speed change does nothing for the match-up nor address any of the current problems with ravens or unhindered Zerg economies.
If other masters/gm/pro Terrans can leave their input in this thread, that would surely be appreciated by the entire community. I hope I at least put out some food for thought and that this will lead to discussion.
The worst thing that could possibly happen in terms of a balance patch is ravens are given a speed buff and then Terran is left alone for the next 5 months wondering, "how did this address anything?"Last edit: 2012-08-19 11:43:46 |
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 InDesconrowl Togo. August 19 2012 11:10. Posts 311 | Profile # |
Give it some time, Taeja is doing just fine in TvZ.
Instead of asking blizzard to change the game because you are struggling why don't you analyze Taeja's gameplay and learn how he succeeds in TvZ.Last edit: 2012-08-19 11:13:44 |
| | :tg: Ginyu Force :tg: |  |
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| Ochrow United States. August 19 2012 11:10. Posts 58 | Profile # |
how mod are u bro
User was warned for this post |
| | ZOMG JOE 3 POST STARTED PLAYING MAFIA AND then got his ass banned and modkilled . . . And so ended the life of Joe 3 Post |  |
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| SigmaoctanusIV United States. August 19 2012 11:12. Posts 2431 | Profile Blog # |
| Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup. |
| | I am Godzilla You are Japan |  |
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| Forikorder August 19 2012 11:13. Posts 5190 | Profile # |
wow i should have checked the author before making a long post
stop wining, Terran is doing fine just look at TaejaLast edit: 2012-08-19 11:14:20 |
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| ReketSomething United States. August 19 2012 11:13. Posts 4012 | Profile Blog # |
| Queen change is pretty dumb though... |
| | I love Jaedong! :3 |  |
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| Arkansassy August 19 2012 11:14. Posts 251 | Profile # |
"If other masters/gm/pro Terrans can leave their input in this thread, that would surely be appreciated by the entire community. I hope I at least put out some food for thought and that this will lead to discussion."
I think you should have bolded this, avilo. Obivously some people just see your name and don't bother reading - or can't *shrugs*
@ InDesconrowl - Taeja is an anonmaly and even he loses.
Seriously, if you can't offer a legitmate argument and your opinion on this well thought out thread, don't take up space from those who really want to discuss this. Last edit: 2012-08-19 11:16:34 |
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| avilo United States. August 19 2012 11:14. Posts 3234 | Profile Blog # |
On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup.
a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues.
b) thread is not about me personally, though I do believe my experience as a player into the "mega late game" and using ravens/etc. does make me somewhat qualified to start a discussion like this.
c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment.Last edit: 2012-08-19 11:16:05 |
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| Zergrusher United States. August 19 2012 11:15. Posts 504 | Profile # |
On August 19 2012 11:14 avilo wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup.
a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues. b) thread is not about me personally c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment.
isn't C once again evening out? |
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| Lumi United States. August 19 2012 11:15. Posts 1027 | Profile # |
| Who said it was supposed to? |
| | KT_Violet 1988 - 2012 | n.Die_aSam 1992 - 2012 |  |
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| pac.558 Canada. August 19 2012 11:15. Posts 90 | Profile # |
avilo nice wall of text you pasty fuckin nerd
your butt frustration level must be off the charts
User was banned for this post. |
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| pmp10 August 19 2012 11:16. Posts 1389 | Profile # |
Is this really thread-worthy?
There is already one for proposed balance changes. |
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| Forikorder August 19 2012 11:16. Posts 5190 | Profile # |
On August 19 2012 11:14 avilo wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup.
a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues. b) thread is not about me personally c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment.
the game doesnt need a giant change doing small things like making ravens faster and creep slower is exactly what blizz needs to do
the game is so balanced right now that a careless nerf or buff just makes it more imbalanced they need small nerfs taht are carefully thought out and tested and watched religiously
people said the same thing about warp prisoms now warp prism harass is hugely hard to deal with as Zerg |
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| InDesconrowl Togo. August 19 2012 11:17. Posts 311 | Profile # |
On August 19 2012 11:15 Zergrusher wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:14 avilo wrote:
On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup.
a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues. b) thread is not about me personally c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment.
isn't C once again evening out?
Blizzard said there is only a SLIGHT imbalance at the HIGHEST levels of play (aka Not NA Ladder.)
I guess avilo didn't read Minigun's comments about the NA ladder...
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| | :tg: Ginyu Force :tg: | |
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| cactusjack914 United States. August 19 2012 11:19. Posts 166 | Profile # |
| Yea, lets just ignore having this discussion because avilo started the thread? Im guessing if this thread was started by someone else the discussion would have started insteaded of just being ignored completely. |
| | "starcraft isn't a hobby, its a lifestyle." |
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| avilo United States. August 19 2012 11:19. Posts 3234 | Profile Blog # |
On August 19 2012 11:16 Forikorder wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:14 avilo wrote:
On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup.
a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues. b) thread is not about me personally c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment.
the game doesnt need a giant change doing small things like making ravens faster and creep slower is exactly what blizz needs to do the game is so balanced right now that a careless nerf or buff just makes it more imbalanced they need small nerfs taht are carefully thought out and tested and watched religiously people said the same thing about warp prisoms now warp prism harass is hugely hard to deal with as Zerg
You mean no careless unnecessary giant changes like giving the queen an extra two range in an already close to 50-50 balanced match-up...right? 
As for blizzard going slow with changes, that is great, but changing raven speed does nothing to address any of the balance issues for the TvZ match-up that occurred after the queen buff patch.
The creep spread nerf I'm sure most players agree blizzard needs to do.
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| blade55555 United States. August 19 2012 11:19. Posts 14118 | Profile Blog # |
| Ya they are and Korean terrans are saying tvz is fine. |
| | When I think of something else, something will go here |  |
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| Noak Sweden. August 19 2012 11:21. Posts 61 | Profile # |
| The answer always seems to be marines, when in doubt make more. As everyone knows BL/infestors are about as mobile as siegetanks and you are free to send your bio all over the place, all out bio will be the future of TvZ |
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| BlindKill Australia. August 19 2012 11:22. Posts 1180 | Profile # |
| 125 energy is pretty ridiculous, maybe lower energy in exchange for smaller splash/splash fallout but higher impact damage, that way it can be used to snipe ultras/BL |
| | “Life is a grindstone, and whether it grinds a man down or polishes him up depends on the stuff he's made of.” |  |
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| ritzia1 Canada. August 19 2012 11:22. Posts 90 | Profile # |
| I just wish it was easier to transition into sky Terran on smaller maps, maybe we would see more Terrans going toe to toe with Zerg macro. |
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