Random and its place on the ladder

Firstly, I'm not sure this is the right forum, but this seems general enough to warrant the general forum.

Secondly, this is not a "ALL RANDOM PLAYERS SHOULD DIE" thread, I am creating this to have a discussion and get the opinions of other mature players.

So, I have to ask, is it just me that hates random? As a protoss player, a random opponent that spawns terran or protoss doesn't bother me. However when they are zerg it is extremely annoying, I feel like I am already behind due to something completely out of control (not being able to FFE).

I understand many players will not agree with this, but why?

My personal opinion is this:
A player that chooses random is their choice, and it should not affect me in any shape or form. PvZ is the only matchup where random is really a problem I believe (correct me if I'm wrong).

Many people will respond with the argument "They're random, they have to learn more matchups". I say to that, While true, I don't care, they choose to play random, it shouldn't affect me or how I play and 9/10 times in bronze-diamond all they do is cheese anyway - at least in my experience.

Many - if not all of you will disagree with me on this, but I would like to know why.

To clarify: I have nothing against random players, I understand why they play random, I have a problem with random itself.

Edit: My response to this thread on page 47

Just to say, I didn't expect this thread to get as many hits and spark as big of a debate as this when I made it.

With the benefit of hindsight, I would have not called the thread "random and its place on ladder". I understand this title made many random players assume I was insulting them personally for playing random. As a result I would like to, and have done many times in this thread, clarify I was not out to attack random players personally, just the mechanic. Had I known that this thread would have been as "popular" as this, I'd have named it something like "random in its current form".

That said, I still standby my original stance of personally believing that showing the actual race (with no indication that the player is random) is something I, and a few others would like to see as a personal preference.

Once again, apologies for any offence caused.

Last edit: 2012-08-23 11:04:32

FFE or die trying! -Naniwa

justinpal United States. August 19 2012 21:50. Posts 3233

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If you ask me what race I am I tell you unless you are mean.

Never make a hydralisk.

Nimix France. August 19 2012 21:52. Posts 373

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I play random in diamond for fun on a 2nd account because I like all races and it gives a good overview on the matchups, I tell my race at the beginning of the game and I don't cheese.. And in my experience random player don't cheese that much, I get cheesed a lot more by terrible protoss players that only proxy/canon rush or 1 base all in :/
But I agree that random players that don't tell their race are stupid, because it doesn't make a good game for them either. If your opponent is forced to pick a sub optimal BO, you won't learn anything if you win because of it, and you won't learn anything useful on the matchup either if the game goes weird since the beginning. So yeah you'll win ladder points, but it's not a good way to improve in my opinion. Rather tell your race, play good standard games, and learn to play the matchups properly.

StarGalaxy Germany. August 19 2012 21:52. Posts 578

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i think it matters no matter what races your opponent spwans.
You have to scout for proxies in cases he is toss and i don't probe scout against terran (but you have to against random). So it messes up your build no matter what race he is. The worst case is like you said you spwan on daybreak against zerg you get gateway first against hatch first. good luck with that game!

But then again to play random in a macro game is a lot more difficult. Me personally i really suck offrace. It's a lot of more stuff you have to know and do (macro, micro and gameknowledge). So even if you spawn with a disadvantage against a random player you normally have a bid of an advantage in the macro game i feel.

Last edit: 2012-08-19 21:55:02

Capped Sri Lanka. August 19 2012 21:53. Posts 2230

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Random players i experience are just cheesey. I just 4 gate them as protoss nowadays, as it works for all 3 races and crushes whatever shit they're trying to pull.

I played terran as plat and protoss atm as silver / gold and just experience cheese.

The way to get around random players is to just to standard builds that work as openers against all 3 races. For protoss something like a 1 gate FE or 4 gate works well. You want to be able to defend against cheesey crap and probably send out a scout earlier

Chances are random players are either cheesers, or worse with that race and matchup then you are. You have the advantage.

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Maluk France. August 19 2012 21:53. Posts 104

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Random is a race on its own to me. Random players who think they are more objective because they get to play all the matchups don't get that Terran vs Random is a whole other matchup than Terran vs Terran/Protoss/Zerg, for example. If you don't know the race of your opponent, any specific opener you have is screwed. So basically every random player starts with a slight build order advantage.
I don't think this kind of advantage is game breaking, though ; it seems to compensate nicely for the fact that the random player will often be slightly worse with the race he'll end up having during the game than your average opponent who race picks.
To me, random is fine as it is, and displayed as "random", because it's a way to have fun (I go random myself when I want to go for funny build based on the fact my opponent has no clue about what I could be up to).

Last edit: 2012-08-19 21:55:20

FaCE_1 Canada. August 19 2012 21:53. Posts 4944

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i play random (mid-diamond) and I don't cheese much then anyone (pretty rarely). But i won't tell my race if someone ask.

GG Broodwar

Tao367 United Kingdom. August 19 2012 21:54. Posts 314

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Also, while this seems like a small point to bring up, as a follow up point, pros will never have to deal with random players. If Blizzard wants to make the ladder similar to tournaments as they say, random is directly countering that philosophy.

FFE or die trying! -Naniwa

Hypemeup Sweden. August 19 2012 21:56. Posts 2630

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I dont know, when I play random I just announce my race because I dont give a shit about useless ladder wins. Dont see many randoms do this though, in fact, most of them cant even play straight up but try to bad cheese. I always scout for inbase crap on 2player maps and around my base for proxie stargates/starport or other silly crap.

This is my experience in masters EU anyways.

Antares_ Poland. August 19 2012 21:56. Posts 263

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I don't care, I just go 1 rax FE and depo scout. When I play random on my smurf acc I reveal my race if opponent asks nicely

Last edit: 2012-08-19 21:57:19

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CoR Germany. August 19 2012 21:56. Posts 3037

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as random, normaly i always tell race even from my own, if not if someone ask me i 100% say
if they start game with "lol fu rnd" and "op rnd idiot" or any other flame obviously i not even not tell my race i go for the hardest cheese shit out there because bm must be punished

random is way way harder to master because its 9 not 3 matchups ! even 10 with rnd vs rnd ^^
so for a random player hes behind every mu to you because he have less practice so the random haters just hate rnd because they not strong enough to play rnd theirself

normaly random players wanna enjoy every race mu so they noramly not cheese that much ... just if they get a mu they hate like zvz or something crappy

Last edit: 2012-08-19 21:57:57

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FaCE_1 Canada. August 19 2012 21:57. Posts 4944

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Another thing is that, when you play random, you will have a good race and a bad race. For me, if I roll protoss vs terran or zerg, I'll have a hard time. But if I roll Zerg, it will go much better. Like if I would play P, I would end up plat but Z or T would be high diamond. So i end up mid/low diamond

GG Broodwar

Chronos. United States. August 19 2012 21:59. Posts 704

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That's kind of the point of random as many people have said in the past, they have to learn all 3 races and in return you can't see what race they are. I'd recommend just going with a basic opening against random that can work against all 3 races, then just scout somewhat early and you can just go for a gateway expand against zerg.

I've always thought that not stating the Random's race was weird too at first, but I mean you barely see random on ladder and it just mixes it up a little, it's not really a big deal imo.

Tao367 United Kingdom. August 19 2012 22:01. Posts 314

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On August 19 2012 21:59 Chronos. wrote:
That's kind of the point of random as many people have said in the past, they have to learn all 3 races and in return you can't see what race they are. I'd recommend just going with a basic opening against random that can work against all 3 races, then just scout somewhat early and you can just go for a gateway expand against zerg.

I've always thought that not stating the Random's race was weird too at first, but I mean you barely see random on ladder and it just mixes it up a little, it's not really a big deal imo.

Random is more common than you think on the EU ladder in Plat-Diamond.

FFE or die trying! -Naniwa

StarGalaxy Germany. August 19 2012 22:01. Posts 578

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The thing with telling is do you believe them? Do you really want to FFE against Zerg and then they are toss and just 4 gate you?^^
i never got lied to but i usually also don't depend on that information too much.

I usually don't ask because i think its a bid bm to ask for an advantage when its the goal of the game is to win against the opponent.

Last edit: 2012-08-19 22:02:16

DarkPlasmaBall United States. August 19 2012 22:01. Posts 19998

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On August 19 2012 21:50 justinpal wrote:
If you ask me what race I am I tell you unless you are mean.

I've played against Random players who lie about the race they've randomly rolled... and so it's very hard to ever trust an opponent who offers up free information.

But that's very nice of you

"Those who can, teach. Those who can't, whine about teachers." ~Me

teamamerica United States. August 19 2012 22:03. Posts 660

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For people who are playing random but aren't doing it to throw off their opponents game plan (even if you say in start of game, I can't always trust you, from exp.), why don't you just consciously cycle through each race (play T->P->Z) or use a random number generator mod 3 to decide? It's not that hard to tab out in the start of the game and decide and than queue again.

As a Terran it doesn't affect me too much because 1rax cc is safe against everything except marine-tank-banshee allin and 4gate blink on some maps, but for Toss/Zerg I think it makes such a huge difference it's not worth playing out a normal game. If you're playing to get better, you'll never face a random in any tourny env. and if you're playing for fun, you might not enjoying playing vs a random for any variety of reasons from being behind from the start to random players propensity for being cheesy (not all, just my exp of masses of 2base pushes) to anything else.

Not saying I hate random at all or think it's stupid or anything; it just confuses me why people who say they're playing random to experience every race (i.e. not get a random advantage) don't just randomly choose their race, instead of playing random.

Bojas Netherlands. August 19 2012 22:05. Posts 1426

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It's annoying but it has it's place in the ladder, you just can't do things like forge fe vs random. Open 1 gate fe or even cheese the hell out of random players. Don't expect to play the same way you would if you knew their race beforehand.

You haven't remotely lost if you can't blindly forge fe so we can conclude there is no problem.

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Tao367 United Kingdom. August 19 2012 22:05. Posts 314

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On August 19 2012 22:03 teamamerica wrote:
For people who are playing random but aren't doing it to throw off their opponents game plan (even if you say in start of game, I can't always trust you, from exp.), why don't you just consciously cycle through each race (play T->P->Z) or use a random number generator mod 3 to decide? It's not that hard to tab out in the start of the game and decide and than queue again.

As a Terran it doesn't affect me too much because 1rax cc is safe against everything except marine-tank-banshee allin and 4gate blink on some maps, but for Toss/Zerg I think it makes such a huge difference it's not worth playing out a normal game. If you're playing to get better, you'll never face a random in any tourny env. and if you're playing for fun, you might not enjoying playing vs a random for any variety of reasons from being behind from the start to random players propensity for being cheesy (not all, just my exp of masses of 2base pushes) to anything else.

Not saying I hate random at all or think it's stupid or anything; it just confuses me why people who say they're playing random to experience every race (i.e. not get a random advantage) don't just randomly choose their race, instead of playing random.

I think a big part of why they don't cycle races is the random wins portraits/achievements.

FFE or die trying! -Naniwa

forsooth United States. August 19 2012 22:06. Posts 2668

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Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.

So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it.

Last edit: 2012-08-19 22:07:05

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