Edit: added VOD for those who want to watch me lose while you're at work
Hi, this is my first TL post. I am in silver. But I'm not a noob, I'm just bad I am wondering what better players do. I am not sure how to open PvZ on 4 player maps, when I scout them last.
The main issue is when you scout them last, you have to make some type of decision to FE, to build 2nd pylon, build a zealot. Usually I bulid 2nd pylon and start a zealot if I have not scouted them. In this case I decided to go with the expand, in other cases I delay the expand and build another gateway, which puts me behind if the Zerg fast expands.
Here I scouted at ~4:30, and saw that he was going 1 base fast speed. By this time my Nexus and lower pylon were almost done, and I didn't cancel in time. His lings arrived just as my Forge finished. The last 1.5 minutes of the game are me watching the headlights get larger.
It's good on every map. Forge first to be safe, nexus first if you're greedy.
This is correct, with a 14 forge you can stop any type of early pool, a 6/7/8 pool with drone pull can be hard but its very rare and still possible to stop.
"I think bringing a toddler to a movie theater is a terrible idea. They are too young to understand what is happening it would be like giving your toddler acid. Bad idea." - Sinensis
Very early pools involve saccing one's Forge and Pulon, building a Pylon and Cannon in one's mineral line. With good micro, you should lose 2 or less Probes.
I think Gateway expands are better for sub-Plats to learn. Much easier to execute, as follow-up attacks are limited in their tech-tree.
If one wishes to improve, at such a level, I firmly believe that attempting to FFE is unproductive. 3 Gate expands are fine.
Last edit: 2012-08-20 09:00:21
Raggamuffinoo United Kingdom. August 20 2012 09:36. Posts 115
9 pylon at natural - scout clockwise 11 chronoboost probes 12 rally to natural pylon - chronoboost probes Queue 13th and 14th probe 14 Forge
Now, your first probe should have arrived at the first destination. If the zerg is there, the probe which built the forge can return to mine.
If the zerg is not there, send your first (9 pylon scout) probe to the cross spawn position AND send the second (14 forge) probe to the final spawn location.
If you are really paranoid about 6 pool, a 15 pylon behind your main minerals will finish in time for you to plant a cannon asap.
The best follow up for protoss in this situation is + Show Spoiler +
gateway gas pylon 2x zealot w/ chronoboost cybernetics core** gas sentry pylon at ramp sentry 2x gateway to form a choke at your ramp **after chronoboosting two zealots all chronoboost is on warpgate
Keep your initial probe(s) on the map to scout and plant pylons for counter aggression
You can choose to expand and remake your forge and research hallucination for scouting... or attack with 6+ sentry and chronoboosted warpgates if the zerg expanded without spines.
dont quote me
Episte United States. August 21 2012 13:42. Posts 6
Thanks to all who responded. I am using the forge first, seems better all around than gate first.
If one wishes to improve, at such a level, I firmly believe that attempting to FFE is unproductive. 3 Gate expands are fine.
I don't understand how 3 gate can ever beat 14 pool 14 hatch. You are way behind economically, and not enough early army to break through defense at natural.
I am a nerd irl
BretZ United States. August 21 2012 14:27. Posts 886
If one wishes to improve, at such a level, I firmly believe that attempting to FFE is unproductive. 3 Gate expands are fine.
I don't understand how 3 gate can ever beat 14 pool 14 hatch. You are way behind economically, and not enough early army to break through defense at natural.
It's a solid opening. If you macro correctly eventually starting with an opening like that won't matter.
Don't drink poison,and expect someone else to get hurt
SC2John United States. August 21 2012 14:40. Posts 925
On August 21 2012 13:42 Episte wrote: Thanks to all who responded. I am using the forge first, seems better all around than gate first.
If one wishes to improve, at such a level, I firmly believe that attempting to FFE is unproductive. 3 Gate expands are fine.
I don't understand how 3 gate can ever beat 14 pool 14 hatch. You are way behind economically, and not enough early army to break through defense at natural.
It's a solid opening. If you macro correctly eventually starting with an opening like that won't matter.
3-gate expands in PvZ are outdated for the same reason that reactor hellion expands in TvZ are outdated. Most zergs will be able to push economy really hard really fast, deflecting any early pressure with a ton of speedlings + upgrades, while protoss is doing a very inefficient expand. If protoss takes a natural with a 3-gate expand and zerg takes 3 relatively fast bases, protoss literally can never take a 3rd.
It's MUCH better to practice this matchup with only FFE. There are a lot of little nuances in FFE like the order you put the buildings down and dealing with 6-pools etc, but forge first is ALWAYS safe and will lead protoss into a really safe midgame that can keep up with the zerg economy. From this safe play, you end up at a jumping point into several all-ins, several fast 3-base builds, and several harassment options.
superstartran United States. August 21 2012 15:09. Posts 1307
On August 21 2012 13:42 Episte wrote: Thanks to all who responded. I am using the forge first, seems better all around than gate first.
If one wishes to improve, at such a level, I firmly believe that attempting to FFE is unproductive. 3 Gate expands are fine.
I don't understand how 3 gate can ever beat 14 pool 14 hatch. You are way behind economically, and not enough early army to break through defense at natural.
It's a solid opening. If you macro correctly eventually starting with an opening like that won't matter.
3-gate expands in PvZ are outdated for the same reason that reactor hellion expands in TvZ are outdated. Most zergs will be able to push economy really hard really fast, deflecting any early pressure with a ton of speedlings + upgrades, while protoss is doing a very inefficient expand. If protoss takes a natural with a 3-gate expand and zerg takes 3 relatively fast bases, protoss literally can never take a 3rd.
It's MUCH better to practice this matchup with only FFE. There are a lot of little nuances in FFE like the order you put the buildings down and dealing with 6-pools etc, but forge first is ALWAYS safe and will lead protoss into a really safe midgame that can keep up with the zerg economy. From this safe play, you end up at a jumping point into several all-ins, several fast 3-base builds, and several harassment options.
If the Z takes a really fast 3rd a 3 gate opening punishes it badly. Most ladder Z's don't even remember how to play vs Gate expand anymore, just look at Nony's 2 gate build.
etherealfall Australia. August 21 2012 15:59. Posts 393
Actually if you open gate first you pretty much HAVE to 3 gate expo against 14g/14p due to his ability to just pump out lings and rally them to your natural. 1 gate expo is so dicey. And by the time you scout your opponent on a 4 player map, you would have either committed to forge or gate.
EDIT: 3 gate expo is a solid way to just make 'stuff' in the lower leagues. If you open FFE you don't end up making a lot of things for awhile and don't actually know how to respond to every type of opening a z can do.
Last edit: 2012-08-21 16:01:34
superstartran United States. August 21 2012 16:20. Posts 1307
On August 21 2012 15:59 etherealfall wrote: Actually if you open gate first you pretty much HAVE to 3 gate expo against 14g/14p due to his ability to just pump out lings and rally them to your natural. 1 gate expo is so dicey. And by the time you scout your opponent on a 4 player map, you would have either committed to forge or gate.
EDIT: 3 gate expo is a solid way to just make 'stuff' in the lower leagues. If you open FFE you don't end up making a lot of things for awhile and don't actually know how to respond to every type of opening a z can do.
A 1 Gate Expo can hold but it definitely is not for lower league play. The only advantage over the 1 gate FE is that you get a VR out much faster, thus allowing you to deny a third and defend vs Roach/Ling all-ins. Issue is that it takes perfect FFs and great micro and focus fire.
MstrJinbo United States. August 21 2012 21:58. Posts 780
On August 21 2012 15:59 etherealfall wrote: Actually if you open gate first you pretty much HAVE to 3 gate expo against 14g/14p due to his ability to just pump out lings and rally them to your natural. 1 gate expo is so dicey. And by the time you scout your opponent on a 4 player map, you would have either committed to forge or gate.
EDIT: 3 gate expo is a solid way to just make 'stuff' in the lower leagues. If you open FFE you don't end up making a lot of things for awhile and don't actually know how to respond to every type of opening a z can do.
A 1 Gate Expo can hold but it definitely is not for lower league play. The only advantage over the 1 gate FE is that you get a VR out much faster, thus allowing you to deny a third and defend vs Roach/Ling all-ins. Issue is that it takes perfect FFs and great micro and focus fire.
I think he's talking about a bunch of speedlings attacking just as the nexus starts. A Protoss will only have a zealot and 3 maybe 4 sentries. It's really difficult to hold off on certain maps even for high league players.
As others have said, 3 Gate expand plays are perfectly solid with correct macro. They are much easier to execute than FFE (think of all the responses to all-ins and tech choices that come with FFE).
I've been using Nani's 1 Gate expand to great success recently on ladder. It's hard to execute perfectly (you are scouting and macroing constantly until WG and moving units around the map, in comparison to simply building Probes for the first few mins of an FFE). You need to be on point to counter Speedling aggression, though, that's for sure.
VIKINGZOMBIE Australia. August 22 2012 04:11. Posts 19
just do the 14 forge FFE at first. build a pylon and cannon at your min line to defend early pools, otherwise you have fast 2 base and have a cannon so you're golden for a little while. Once you get your gateway up get 2 zealots out and walk across the map, check for 3rd and park infront of his base, if he has the 3rd go into tech if not go into gates (to defend the incoming attack). if he has enough units to overwhelm your 2 zealots with ease, build 2 extra cannons and chrono out WG+ ~3 sentries. The reasoning is, if he has mass lings his macro has been really hurt by them not being drones, and roaches also from investing in so much gas mining + roach warren + roaches so early that your eco is way higher than his at this point, you need to defend. After a while though when your gates come up you can use those to defend a later attack so you can go into your standard late game play.
This build I've given is very vague and unrefined, the reason for that being that the concepts are important and will probably work fine at your level executed inefficiently. Over time if you improve your macro and iron out the bumps then you can start reacting to what you scout much better and make many subtle adjustments to make it safer/greedier etc, but for now those minor details are not to be worried about, so work on your macro, and follow these general concepts so you feel safe and dont die!
goodluck.
http://www.twitch.tv/vikingzombiesc
packrat386 United States. August 22 2012 08:30. Posts 422
Silver player here. I play all 3 races (badly). A 3 gate expand will work perfectly in silver league and will keep you safe against cheese (most important part). Its also good to mix in aggression because you can straight up win the game/catch players off guard if they play really greedy. You will eventually need to learn an FFE but atm there are a variety of builds you could do.
Kharnage Australia. August 22 2012 09:01. Posts 831
don't build your nexus until you get your scout in their base low ground pylon > forge > gateway > 2nd pylon > 2nd gateway (should be compelte wall off now on all maps) once you scout their pool timing you can stop and get a nexus if they are not going for a super early push, otherwise you can just keep building up that wall
las91 United States. August 22 2012 09:11. Posts 568
On August 21 2012 13:42 Episte wrote: Thanks to all who responded. I am using the forge first, seems better all around than gate first.
If one wishes to improve, at such a level, I firmly believe that attempting to FFE is unproductive. 3 Gate expands are fine.
I don't understand how 3 gate can ever beat 14 pool 14 hatch. You are way behind economically, and not enough early army to break through defense at natural.
It's a solid opening. If you macro correctly eventually starting with an opening like that won't matter.
If you macro correctly starting with any opening it won't matter, so why would you suggest doing a 3 gate expand which is ineffective at best in higher level play over the FFE? I would think that after months (years at this point) of FFE being the predominant build in PvZ that people would finally realize its value. There is no point in learning a build that you won't be able to use if/when you get into higher levels of play.
To the OP, I would recommend doing a build as follows 9 Pylon (scout) 14 Forge (scout the 4th spawn if you have not found the Z already) 17 Nexus 17 Pylon/Gate From here you get double gas in your main, then drop a cyber core as well as start a zealot when your Gateway completes. I would recommend from this point just picking a 2 base build (such as the 7/8 gate immortal allin or the 7 gate +2 blink allin) that you can find here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333477
Good luck and have fun!
Quick EDIT: As for the build you did in the VoD, I'm not sure why you built your core after your zealot as you hadn't actually scouted anything yet... Usually you build the zealot first if you know there are early lings (6/7/8 pool timing) coming your way/you have seen lings already. Just do the FFE, as it accounts for an early pool (either saccing the low ground and doing a normal gateway expand or being ballsy and microing while you get your wall up)
It's MUCH better to practice this matchup with only FFE. There are a lot of little nuances in FFE like the order you put the buildings down and dealing with 6-pools etc, but forge first is ALWAYS safe and will lead protoss into a really safe midgame that can keep up with the zerg economy. From this safe play, you end up at a jumping point into several all-ins, several fast 3-base builds, and several harassment options.
6-pool defense off FFE is actually pretty hard for less-experienced players. The problem is after you put a pylon behind your minerals and a cannon in your mineral line, all your subsequent buildings (gateway, assimilator, second pylon, cybernetics core) have to:
1. All be in range of this single cannon so zerglings can't pick them off, from any angle. 2. Positioned so units made from the gateway don't get stuck between buildings or between buildings and minerals.
This is actually pretty hard on a lot of maps and requires pretty precise placement. It's very easy to have a unit get stuck coming out of the gateway or to suddenly realize that there's nowhere in range of a power field where you can place your cycore and have it protected by the cannon. Do either of those and you pretty much lose immediately.
I think you just need a little more understanding of the situation at hand, but that will come with experience. Here you see that your opponent is one-basing, and instead of sending all of your probes in an attempt to save your expansion, you could've sac'd it and held your ramp. Or even earlier, if you had gotten your cannon up with some good simcity + your zealots you would've also held. Both would've kept you in the game, and put the zerg either behind, or equal to you.
However, try to practice the FFE like everyone else has suggested, as it is a very safe, economical build. Once you've mastered that, expand your options (i.e. 1 gate expand).
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I am wondering what better players do. I am not sure how to open PvZ on 4 player maps, when I scout them last.
Forge Fast Expansion %28vs. Zerg%29
