[D] PvT High Templar or Colossus?

Recently, I rarely can win Terrans.
I know that the reason is my bad decisions, macro and more. ( I'm Plat level )
I thought of a creative way to solve the problem: change tactic.

I see a lot of poeple using Colossus before high templar ( and me as well )
and I really don't know why and If high templar could be better decision start with ( it also good against drops )

So, what what do you think about this?
Colossus or High Templar and why?

ellsworth United States. August 20 2012 10:26. Posts 30

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look up creator prime pvt.

Daniel12 Israel. August 20 2012 10:32. Posts 29

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On August 20 2012 10:26 ellsworth wrote:
look up creator prime pvt.

Creator is a Pro-Gamer and I sure that he can and he does more than 1 build. You did not write at all what you think about this subject.

eGengar August 20 2012 10:35. Posts 4

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Take his advice and look up creator prime
the biggest thread that comes up is his pvt which includes getting ht's before colossus

If you expect people to do everything for you, you will learn nothing.
You learn more from researching yourself than someone explaining something to you.

Daniel12 Israel. August 20 2012 10:39. Posts 29

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On August 20 2012 10:35 eGengar wrote:
Take his advice and look up creator prime
the biggest thread that comes up is his pvt which includes getting ht's before colossus

If you expect people to do everything for you, you will learn nothing.
You learn more from researching yourself than someone explaining something to you.

I'm asking what is better and why. Why most of poeple prefer to choose with Colossus and not High Templar? What is the risks? what is the benefits?

I tried to find answers to these questions without success. So do not judge if I was looking for before or not.

Whatson United States. August 20 2012 10:45. Posts 4448

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You're a platinum and you're asking this question? Yeesh. And yeah, no need to be rude, CreatorPrime PvT is still one of the most stable PvT styles out there.
Ok I'll be nice and give you a tip. When Collosi numbers get to around 4 or 5, marines melt in 1 shot. So what do Terrans build? And by building said units, what units are they not building, and what units are they weak to?

PogoSwe August 20 2012 10:47. Posts 6

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I'm plat terran and colossus scares the crap out of me when I'm going for my first push. It's a great way of dealing with mid-game aggression so if you scout a 2base timing I highly recommend colossus. If you notice that the terran player is playing passive and going for the long macro game you could skip it I guess but if you do you need to be prepared for ghosts which at this level is a bit of a gamble. If the EMP hits, you're dead, if it miss... Congratz gg.

It's all about how you want to play it really but its in the early lategame you have the greatest andvantage.

Mavvie Canada. August 20 2012 10:47. Posts 850

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If you want this thread to be good (it is labelled as [D]), then you'll need to add depth to the OP. state pros and cons of both, etc. I don't play P or T, but here's what I've picked up around:
-colossi can shoot infinite times, HT only have a spell that does AOE damage
-colossus tech is faster
-colossi counter every ground unit in the game, and will force Terran to make Vikings instead of medivacs
-because of the first point, colossi allow you to be aggressive, with a method of retreat (once you storm, if you don't win the fight then you're gonna lose every HT because of their hilarious movement speed)

So yeah. Just my thoughts

Please add your own thoughts to the OP, don't want to risk thread getting closed.
Edit: As entirety said, and I didn't make entirely clear (har har), HT are defensive while colo allow you to be aggressive. Yeah. Also HT are immobile.

Last edit: 2012-08-20 11:19:39

Mavvie.439 ~ 2500+MMR [HOTS] Masters Zerg on NA ~ part of Bronze 3v3 team uwu ~ Feel free to add me to play some games ~~ Hyunstoppable?

Entirety August 20 2012 10:56. Posts 854

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I'd like to point out an important difference in their usage:

Colossus is great for direct engagements. 2-base Colossus push is an example.

High Templar is amazing for zoning out areas... it's great for defense. HerO plays this style where he gets almost no core units at all... he harasses to buy time for Templar. Once Templar are out, he sets them up in every base and his defensive ability is really strong, so it's hard to attack into him. Meanwhile, he continues harassment...

Basically, I think if you are doing a 2-base play or a timing attack, go for Colossus. If you are thinking of playing a long, drawn out macro game, try adding Templar first and doing a Double Robo switch later.

LG-IMMvp (정종현) | LG-IM | Long live the King!

Raggamuffinoo United Kingdom. August 20 2012 11:07. Posts 115

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My phases for PvT
+ Show Spoiler +
This style I stole from protoss players on team Startale, it deals with standard medivac timings and allows for counter aggression with warpprisms, templar and zealots.

I personally dislike the fragility of colossus builds so it is entirely preferential based on your play style. I usually transition after storm into pheonix and delay colossus until I can establish a 4th.

dont quote me

Daniel12 Israel. August 20 2012 11:11. Posts 29

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On August 20 2012 11:07 Raggamuffinoo wrote:
My phases for PvT
+ Show Spoiler +
This style I stole from protoss players on team Startale, it deals with standard medivac timings and allows for counter aggression with warpprisms, templar and zealots.

I personally dislike the fragility of colossus builds so it is entirely preferential based on your play style. I usually transition after storm into pheonix and delay colossus until I can establish a 4th.

This is sounds weird to build Robo and not going to Bay tech instead you are build Twilight and Templar Archives.

meepkeN United States. August 20 2012 11:22. Posts 52

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I go colossus because you already have the robo as you mentioned. It's less micro-intensive too, which means you can do something else (like expand or chrono upgrades mid-battle, for example). They also are more mobile than HT, in that they climb cliffs. HT are good against drops and energy units, like medivacs/ghosts and thor/starport units (if they go mech), but I don't think that tech path is better in dealing with a push and pushing up a ramp if the T is waiting up there.

I think three colossi is a good number to be able to push out with. Before that time, I recommend getting mostly zealots with some sentries for FF/GS and a couple of stalkers just in case.

Once vikings number start to climb, that's when you want your HT tech to start kicking in (along with charge, +1/+1, possible +2/+2). I stop making colossus until ghosts come out, or until viking numbers are low enough to be able to snipe with stalkers.

iokke United States. August 20 2012 11:22. Posts 687

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Hm honestly at platinum level I firmly believe that Collosus is better for you, even if only because it requires less control and management. With HTs you need to pay attention to micro a lot more, and not only to landing storms well, but also to making sure they do not get attacked or EMPed, which is the trickier part. I also think (though i may be wrong) that HT timings are crisper and you will be more vulnerable till storm finishes researching. So you will need quite solid FF control etc to survive pre-storm pushes.

Overall from what I've read there is a fairly even divide on HT vs Col, so what fits your style best is probably the route to go. Learn both openers, and maybe it is good to start practicing HT earlier, but if you are trying to win games easier IMO Col is the way to go in Plat.

One more thought, you can have best of both worlds and do the 3 Colossi into ht transition. Especially at plat you can push him while he is building up medivac count and before he has a lot of vikings to kill or damage him. On the other hand when you open HT>Col, by the time your colossi arrive he will already have enough medivacs and can easily mass vikings, so you might miss out on that timing (although he can also add ghosts in time for Col>ht i guess).

Last edit: 2012-08-20 11:23:22

Crop circles are Chuck Norris' way of telling the world that sometimes corn needs to lie the f*** down. rerereredit.. I never get it right the 1st time

Raggamuffinoo United Kingdom. August 20 2012 11:23. Posts 115

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On August 20 2012 11:11 Daniel12 wrote:

This is sounds weird to build Robo and not going to Bay tech instead you are build Twilight and Templar Archives.

Observers are absolutely essential to knowing both the timing of terran's medivacs and the movements of his units. When rushing colossus from 2 base you will have less units, slower upgrades and less gateways.

Forcing terran to make vikings instead of medivacs is probably more wise, but I find the solution with templar. Feedback.

Having to make stalkers from 2 bases is very expensive and risky, unless you hit a keen timing with stalker colossus, the stalkers lose their investment potential very quickly.

My transition to pheonix on 3 base is an experimental strategy, I simply do not like stalkers in this matchup. Also I find the flexibility of pheonix a worthy investment, forcing turrets, picking off mules, scouting the map, killing dropships and I will have an answer to any forced basetrade.

Only once I have established a 4th base and started double robo colossus, would I even consider warping in stalker reinforcements.

dont quote me

JeanLuc Canada. August 20 2012 11:29. Posts 319

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At Plat level I imagine you're losing to a lot of 11-13 minute mid game pressure. But in general, I think your thought process in fixing your PvT win rate is not correct. It's not about deciding between one tech tree or the other but improving your fundamentals. Review your losing replays against Terran and see where you are losing the game most often. If all your games go to lategame, try to see when in the replay you begin to "lose". Then you can start to address your problems.

If you can't find it within yourself to stand up and tell the truth-- you don't deserve to wear that uniform

rbals0282 United States. August 20 2012 12:54. Posts 27

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low-mid Diamond league here

not that much better than you haha but here are my thoughts:

I feel like going collosi first is definitely the better choice at lease for plat/dia level players and even higher up as well according to what they scout, because:
- with the thermal lance, collosi can be used to attack bunkers and be really annoying making the terran pull the scvs. (of course with some gateway units to back them up)
- you will need observer no matter wat in the game and I think it's essential to get observers asap so that you can scout what they are doing. Basically what I do is chrono out 3-4 observers. Two on either side of your bases to see if the drops are coming and one in front of the enemy's army so that you can see when they are pushing and can see the unit composition.
- If you go templar tech first, and terran scans it and goes ghost academy and emps your high templars, it's basically game over. (unless of course, you can spread your hts and all of your army so well so that emps don't hit or only hit 1-2 hts... lol for me, it's impossible as of now hahaha unless im lucky)

So basically what I do is, go collosus tech asap and while the robo bay is building, I get 3 obs and 1-2 immortals and when bay is done, I chrono out 3 collosi asap (while doing that, take 3rd, double forge, and when two upgrades are half-way done, twilight council) then when 3 collosi are out, go templar archive asap.

remember, 3 collosi is the magic number for collosus count imo. So if 1-2 dies, remember to fill them up to 3-4 again haha.

Well hope it helped

protoss ftw

-Switch- Canada. August 20 2012 13:04. Posts 422

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On August 20 2012 10:32 Daniel12 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Creator is a Pro-Gamer and I sure that he can and he does more than 1 build. You did not write at all what you think about this subject.

i loled at your response. plat league. play a lot of games. make workers. spend resources. You're welcome.

Last edit: 2012-08-20 13:08:11

rbals0282 United States. August 20 2012 13:07. Posts 27

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And I completely agree with JeanLuc. Every game I lose or win, I take a look at the replay to see what made me win, what made me lose, and what timing was important (e.g. should I have taken a 3rd faster? should I have used my units to harass this time or that? and etc etc lol) yea mechanics come before builds.

P.S. my mechanics aren't that good either LOL T3T

protoss ftw

Daimai Sweden. August 20 2012 16:22. Posts 589

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Colossi first I find to be really weak to drops. There was a game in TSL where First played Sting(I think) on Entombed and that game showcased the weakness of early colo builds for me. Also they die really fast to vikings, so I love HTs much more.

I despise every terran player on this earth, and I hope there is a special place in hell saved for them.

ant885 United States. August 20 2012 16:34. Posts 44

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1.1k masters here, just to give some perspective

Both are of course viable/effective and to be honest if you're losing (esp in mid/lower leagues) it's not because of a col opening. Ultimately it comes down to preference, but I think col openings are easier to use and therefore a bit safer.

Here's a nifty way to go about it that I like quite a bit. I know JYP used to do this if you wanna check out some of his pvts, not sure about currently. (I think the 4 col recommendation is a bit outdated nowadays though)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306498

It's pretty similiar to creatorprime style, but gets the col out first and makes the midgame quite a bit easier to deal with imo (esp with that common 5 racks +1 marine heavy timing that seems popular). And you can still hit ~ a 17:30min or something 3/3 timing where you'll have a 2 upgrade advantage vs most T openings and can kinda just 1a ftw (at least at my level or lower).

Last edit: 2012-08-20 16:35:05

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