[H] So Lost in TvP

Spoiler = Rage

+ Show Spoiler +

http://drop.sc/241188

EDIT: As per suggestion, I feel like I lost because I can't be aggressive as Terran during the midgame. The actual approach to my TvP is flawed because I either throw away units in aggro, or just let the enemy build up a 3/3 deathball. Sorry TL.

I try to do the Bomber build, but I can't use my marines to actually damage the Protoss in any way, and it's frustrating. Low low low diamond NA.

Last edit: 2012-08-20 16:21:22

BwCBlueBox.837

Daimai Sweden. August 20 2012 16:18. Posts 589

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This is not a post that's up to strategy forum standards. Edit it asap, include an analysis of why YOU think you lost.

I despise every terran player on this earth, and I hope there is a special place in hell saved for them.

BlueBoxSC United States. August 20 2012 16:21. Posts 536

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On August 20 2012 16:18 Daimai wrote:
This is not a post that's up to strategy forum standards. Edit it asap, include an analysis of why YOU think you lost.

Did that, thanks.

BwCBlueBox.837

tjuggx August 20 2012 16:59. Posts 42

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Well, adding more starports ( 1 naked maybe ) when seeing he is going pretty much mass coloss isnt a bad idea. I think even that would have won you the game there, also when you engage ( like the first engagement ) you want to scan first to see what he has, i believe if you would have scanned, forget the drop and went on him with full force you would have maybe won the game there. When looking to the endgame you have a really high scv count ( i think, almost 80 ). You could just add more CC's and sac scv's to get a higher army supply. Your macro also slips higher and higher the more the game goes on, try to focus on it even when moving out / engaging so you can have a nice army waiting at you at home all the time.

in the endgame ( 22min+ ) IF you had a higher viking count ( around 15 ), had a more marauder heavy composition ( ghost / marauder is good when hes not massing zealots and he wasnt ), hit even 1 emp on the archons you would have CRUSHED him, also you could have had +2 on viking easily on that time, making it even more of a roll over.

Last edit: 2012-08-20 17:04:07

Psychobabas United Kingdom. August 20 2012 17:09. Posts 1970

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If you actually want to beat protoss all the way to low masters, just do the 2 base thor marine banshee allin.

If you want to play TvP the "proper" bio way all the way to masters then you will have to give twice the effort. I'll check replay now and update...

Last edit: 2012-08-20 17:10:44

ChoJJa for life!

No0n United States. August 20 2012 17:10. Posts 305

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Why do you scout so early? What are you looking for. If your game plan is to do the bomber build, then really the only thing you want to know is whether the Protoss took 1 or 2 gasses, which can easily be scouted by the SCV that built the rax.

Second, you did the build wrong. Your 2nd and 3rd raxes were late which in turn made everything else late. Build the 2nd and 3rd raxes as the money comes in then gas. If you watched IEM this past weekend you can even squeeze in the eng bay after you start researching stim. The 4th and 5th raxes go down at around 8:30 and ur 3rd CC goes down at around 9:30 to 10:00. Another thing I noticed is that you took your 4th gas late. It's generally good to get 4th gas right after your Starport starts. Try to start armor after weapons in quick succession while adding your second eng bay and an armory. Your fact can be used as a scout right after it builds the reactor for your starport. Also, research ship weapons.

Third, your first engagement was really bad. The drop did no damage and your main force got decimated at his ramp because he had a much better arc and his FFs totally split your army in half. Also, I don't understand why you stopped Marauder production for a short time. He was still making stalkers and marauders kite zealots well. He had an obs over your army so when you loaded up to drop his third he already knew. If you see that many colossi you should add a second starport and then ghost academy. Ghosts really arent needed until HTs are out, which he got extremely late. For a period of time while you were watching over your army your macro slipped on the starport and you weren't producing medivacs OR vikings. I think that was a major factor in the loss of the second big battle. In the third battle, you had ghosts, but no marauders so you couldn't kite his zealots or archons that well. In the final battle, you blanketed his whole army in EMPs but let yourself get corrnered and die. He used his archons and stalkers to focus down your vikings first so his colossi didnt die and since you weren't viking they just kind of came and cleaned you up with their splash damage.

Suicide SCVs in lategame for more orbitals. You had like 4k mins so you can just sack SCVs and just use mules. You had 73 SCVS! to his 63 probes. Since his units are generally more cost efficient you need more of your units so yeah.

Basically, the whole build was a bit late and you didnt make enough marauders. You chose a few bad engagements and wasted units in drops that did no damage. You didn't have enough vikings to deal with the colossi or the upgrades to and the vikings ended up getting focused down and dying. You made too many SCVs and not enough actual fighting units. Your upgrades were pretty late too. The nukes were cute, but not all that functional.

Hyuk > Flash // Probes OP >__> <__< // Park Sang Woo(Sea.Really) Fighting!________________________________________________________E-STRO

BobMcJohnson France. August 20 2012 17:23. Posts 1279

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Like I'm ever going to fucking get better, I've played over 2k fucking games of SC2 and can't get into masters so apparenly I'm just some fucking NA scrub who can't compete on the level of "EU" and "KR" like everyone else

Heh you're not alone, keep fighting :>
Reading TL it's easy to think that everybody and their grandmother is GM with <200games played, but it's far from the reality. Masters is only the top 2%, getting into it is hard, no matter whatever people say here.

+ Show Spoiler +

I'll try to have a look at the replay when I get back home, since I'm in the same boat as you, but i'm doing a bit of progress lately

Last edit: 2012-08-20 17:23:33

"When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk." - Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez

Daimai Sweden. August 20 2012 17:35. Posts 589

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I'm no terran (well, I offrace mech terran in masters, I'm usually high master protoss), so I don't know much about biobuilds, but the thing I hate facing the most is 3CC builds. It's really good and there is really no way of punishing you if protoss 1gate FE.

At 11.20, you're engaging in the WORST position you can possibly engage and lose a chunk of your army.

Next engagement, at like 12-13 min, you have a third going up and he has no third in sight. You do NOT have to fight since time is ticking in your favor, but he does. Just stay and make him feel uneasy. You didn't scout for his third OR his tech, which you should do btw (he went colossus double forge this game, which is really vulnerable to drops), so as soon as you see him taking his third, you begin relentless dropping and pick him apart while macroing.
No need to sac your army like that.

You have bad macro, and you are floating a lot of resources. As a high master player, my wet dreams consist of more money to spend in the midgame and that's how you should feel aswell.

The reason I think colossi are shit in TvP is because you trade them for a chunk of the terran army when you engage (since vikings always kill them) which is easily replacable unlike the colossi. So when you are sacrificing your army to get all the colossi in red HP and killing off stalker zealot, it's a more favorable engagement for the protoss. You need to kill his T3 units, that's what protoss relies on to win. I'm not telling you to go out of your way to snipe them, but make sure you trade his colossi for your army ATLEAST, by having lots of vikings.

Also once again, I cannot stop emphasizing DROPS in this matchup. Theoretically, if your opponent doesnt have static defense everywhere you should always find a place to harass and be annoying. Harassing is not only done for economical gain, but also to divide his attention so he cant macro well. Any time you make him spend more attention at something he doesnt want, its a win for you.

Another thing to note is that he has 20 workers less than you, which is essentially 20 more army supply than you at all points. It's usually terran that should be at 60 workers + mules, while protoss sits at around 75. You had 80 this game while he had 60.

Also, unlike most people believe, terran is more favored lategame, simply due to having the eco to get mass ghost marauder and sacrificing all workers for army supply with mass orbitals, so stop trying to kill him at 150 supply all the time. MMM DPS is sick when you are maxed, zealots die before reaching you lol.

One more thing, PvT is a matchup of positioning. One good position can and will decide the fight for you. Set up your army in a concave and all that before the fight, I find it helps a lot. Since you're attacking him all the time, he has superior position and just kills your army several times.

This is incoherent as shit probably since I'm tired, but I tried. Glhf.

PS; If all else fails, use Lyynas mech build, it's retarded and I think there is a screenshot of me BMing him after a game even.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003

Last edit: 2012-08-20 17:36:34

I despise every terran player on this earth, and I hope there is a special place in hell saved for them.

bmoneyAK August 20 2012 17:35. Posts 79

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Hi there,

I think you played pretty well...Nothing about your play is something to be frustrated over. The matchup has some difficulties that are different from the ones you overcame as Z. Here are my thoughts:

*Big issue: You showed up to the fight with rock and he had paper.

You saw his first colossi at 15 minutes. Before this point, you hadn't seen anything but gateway units. You've got to figure out earlier what he's going for and have the counter ready. When you showed up to the party at 19 minutes you had 6 vikings for 4 colossi. People talk about a 3 to 1 viking to colossi ratio. You were incredibly unlucky or his micro was awesome and you killed 0 colossi despite damaging them. His colossi killed 44 of your units.If you had scanned around 10 minutes you would've seen the robo tech and been ready for him. I just made a post about scanning with the Bomber build, and Bomber was scanning at 7:30 and 10:00 in the games that I watched.

As T, you've got to have near perfect engagements to avoid hugely cost inefficient trades. Find out what his composition is so you can have the right unit mix. Scan if you need to.

Don't be frustrated. It's an unforgiving matchup.

Psychobabas United Kingdom. August 20 2012 17:46. Posts 1970

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OK here's some points from a master EU terran:

1. Not enough vikings. You should have been on double reactor starport way earlier.

2. You absolutely have to upgrade viking attack to +3 asap. This isn't a luxury. A +3 armor colossus reduces viking damage by 33% because the viking attack actually is 2 hits, therefore armor being really good against it. In combination with guardian shield, a 0/0 viking does fuck all to a 3/0/3 colossus (and lets not forget any plasma shield upgrades either...)

3. When you face a colossus heavy army you need to get more marauders. Way more than you had.

4. When you reach a 200/200 split map situation you can do all or any of the following but if you can do all, you will be in a great spot:

a. Sack a lot more scvs than you did. Replace them with macro orbitals. If your army was bigger by like 30-40 supply and was fed by macro orbitals replacing the dead scvs, things would have been a lot different. If you are down to a total of 10+ orbitals and like 30-40 scvs you will be in a great spot.
b. Make a few planetary fortresses for defence and to slow counterattacks. Get the upgrades on them. Dont underestimate what 1500 armored hp can do for you as a shield.
c. Make additional ghost academies and go for mass nuke harrass. This fucks them up in so many ways: forces cannons, observers, splitting army, allowing you to take out an expansion with a small task force of bio. If you look at the replay, you could have harrassed the shit out his bases and at platinum/ diamond level a lot of protoss just crumble under the pressure. How about even dropping a medivac AND nuking AND sending a small army across the map to take out an expansion. Let the protoss deal with that while you prepare for any potential counterattack behind your defensive planetary fortress.

Hope this helps.

ChoJJa for life!

Meistrich August 21 2012 00:23. Posts 6

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I´m only a measly plat-terran, also struggling with beyond-mid game PvT. As others have noted, it´s a game of composition and engagements (both which I often screw up badly...). I can warmly recommend you to look up Lastshadow, he got streams and tutorials especially teaching how to deal with late game Toss.

Something I learned is to be patient, setting my army up in a good spread/arc and waiting for the deathball to come to me instead of running up to it.

Thylacine Sweden. August 21 2012 00:32. Posts 882

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You need GM's to tell you what you did wrong? Really? That's some proper arrogant shit you just said-

What you're looking at could be the end of a particularly terrifying nightmare. It isn't. It's the beginning. Introducing Mr. John Valentine, air traveler. His destination: the Twilight Zone...

DocHolliday United Kingdom. August 21 2012 01:45. Posts 51

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masters eu terran here. Watched the replay, don't be too disheartened, you actually played very well. your production always seemed to be in better shape than your opponent, so look at it like you've got the more important aspect of the match up down, just need to focus on some smaller things.

- as some have mentioned, your first drop didnt go very well. I find it helps to give yourself a set of rules about exactly how you are going to proceed with your first 10 minute push out. one of my rules is if he has a collosus out i wont try to engage him at his natural, it almost never works. pull back to his watch tower, load 2 medivacs and go drop his main, during this your raxes are rallied to the watch tower (the bomber build is great for having really good production for this point in the game). so just as your medivacs head into his main , a move your watch tower force to his natural. you aren't looking to end the game, or take out his army, just do any damage.
The priority is always to succesfully get out with your medivacs and most of your army. If you kill a few probes, get out. If you kill his warp in round before his army gets to you, get out. Like wise for your watch tower force going to his natural, get what you can, then leave. now take your watch tower force back home and leave 1 marine at his watch tower, reset your rally points etc. But leave your 2 main medivacs behind his base. This is great for 2 reasons, 1. psychologically it is something he has to be aware of and this always has an effect on someone. 2. if he moves out with whole army without thinking, or not realising, you can drop his main again.
for these situations where a build is kind focused around certain points , like this 10 minute push out , it can be really helpful to have a very clear plan in mind of exactly what you are going to do. Obviously it's all possible for change for many reasons, but with this sort of build at this time you are usually the one with map control and the advantage, so you should normally be able to follow this plan out everytime, on every map. For example, when i push out if he is going anything other than collosus tech (mass gateway or twilight council/templar) I will always push with everything at his natural. good micro in these situations can be devastating for protoss.

- can't remember exact time, but during one of the first big 200/200 engagements (it was in centre of map, and you both pretty much lost all your army) there were 2 problems. 1. you were focused on getting good emps off, which is good and you did get some good coverage on his army, but while you were microing your ghosts none of your bio had been stimmed. you started at 110 army supply, and it wasn't untill you were at 80 army supply that you stimmed. I don't know what the agreed priority is, but I always try to wait untill the last minute and pre stim before the engagement then focus on emps. Or just be quicker at stimming after your emps. He didn't have storm and I think had you done this and my next point you would have crushed him (i think you were also at 3/3 when he was still on 2/2 at this point).
2. you have to stutter step pretty much all the time vs protoss. it increases the effectivness of your bio so much during the first part of the engagement when there are zealots. The zealots and stalkers will do less damage to your bio from having to chase you, while with good quick stutter step micro your damage output can remain almost the same. it makes a massive difference. After the zealots are gone, it isn't as important to keep stutter stepping.

- also it has been mentioned you could used more vikings. General rule of thumb is 3 vikings per collosus, and as already said, weapon upgrades on air are really important while upgrading your bio if he is going collosus.

Sorry for the wall of text! Hope some of that is some help.

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