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| Maybe a Duck Germany. August 20 2012 17:35. Posts 51 | Profile # |
About me: Highish Masters Player, played like crap the for the last weeks, thus i restructure all of my Matchups
The Idea: To me it was frightening how much damage terran drops could do in a drawn out standard makro-game when not dealt with correctly 100% of the time. I personaly had a hard time to do this so i tried to find a safer (concerning drops) approach into the mid-game. I do not argue this is in any way superior to standard play, or even viable "if your opponent plays correct", just something i found comfortable and with some surprising benefits.
The Benefits:
1. Its easy to deal with drops/punish drop attempts-the latter isnt possible with standard play
2.Mapcontrol to some extent-you got to be carefull to have the phoenixes in position should a battle occur
3.High Collossus counts-If the opponent is aggressive with dros in the mid game it happens quite often i nearly max on zealot-stalker-templar due to emergency warp ins and a delayed transition
4.Punishing bad engagements-In a standard collossus midgame you cant punish the terran running away from a bad engagement without blinking forward and commiting quite a lot. The phoenixes will always kill medivacs and can lift up ghosts which are slower than the main pack.
5.Good vs viking timing push-expierience showed me it deals well with it if controled correctly
The Downsides:
1.delayed upgrades-it costs quite a lot
2.delayed gateway count-while your army isnt inferior compared to most standard mid-game compositions it uses the money in a way which makes it very natural to stay on 3-5 gates for a loooooooong time, which is problematic, as it denies aggressive potential
3.unstable-its completly depending on your positioning and control, if a battle is a terrible defeat, or a glorious victory
The buildorder:
I feel a lot of the downsides and their effects are rooted in the buildorder, and id like the improvement of the build to be the main focus of the discussion
With this composition i go for a fairly standard 1 gate fe and depending on what i scout 1gate+robo into 3 gate or 3 gate into robo
From there on i tend to go for very few units and a robo bay, making 2 observers, one for scouting, one for spotting early moveouts
Depending on what i scout i go for double stargate while my second or respectively third collosus is in production
around the same time i sometimes get a forge, sometimes i get the third around that time and the forge soon thereafter. Even though the game becomes very reactional at this point; if you are not getting all inned a quick third is mandatory
defending it vs a potential big push with chargelots a number of phoenixes which results from their viking count (phoenixes produce fast so you can add some reactional) and about five or six of your trusty collosi is the end of the hypothetic mid-game
Sidenote: Iike to cut collossus production after 3 collossi getting 2 more observers to cover drop paths, then resuming collossus production
My main questions: Is it possible to optimize the build order in a way, to do this with a single but earlier stagate, while being safe from pre-medivac timings? You could actualy do some pre-stim harrassment with the phoenixes could skip one stargate for earlier upgrades and your production would be setup in a way to get more gates faster without cutting at a random point in time. You would loose a bit of reaction potentialy though.
Is there a good timing for 2/early 3 base aggression with it if i scout x?
Whats in your opinion the perfect number of collossi aiming for late-game pvt?
ps: Sorry for the wall of text, but i felt i had to go in depth to make the idea and the benefits of this playstyle clear. Anybody feel free to discuss, any masters+above feel free to advise  |
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| ThaReckoning United States. August 20 2012 19:26. Posts 189 | Profile # |
| I've been doing phoenix colossus a while. You're masters, so I assume you understand the dynamics of dealing with 10-12 minute terrans, so I'll skip over that. Basically, I do a double forge build (in my head) but sub out one gate for the stargate, and one forge for the cycore. Use phoenii for drops and soaking viking damage + as stalkers. I go charge first, and armor upgrades on everything. It works decently well once you get used to it, I like it. |
| | If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose. |
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| Maybe a Duck Germany. August 20 2012 19:32. Posts 51 | Profile # |
That means you also upgrade air aromor? interesting
I wonder htough what you mean by "sub out one gate for the cycore" as you need it anyways
maybe you say that cause of the upgrades?
also maybe its smarter to go 2 forge and shields+armor instead of air armor
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| Teoita Italy. August 20 2012 19:33. Posts 4457 | Profile Blog # |
I feel like if the terran goes heavily into upgrades your ground army might end up being too weak as your upgrades will always be behind his (and we all know how bad that is), but if he delays his second eng bay and armory for a while it might be worth trying.
With that in mind, i think the best way to go about phoenix/colossus might be just doing a super standard colossus+single forge build, and have a certain "trigger" in mind for when you can go extra stargates...for example, holding off his medivac timing with colossi and throwing down 2 stargates.
With that said, EMP might still ruin your day by making phoenixes and colossi really easily sniped. Lifting up a ghost with phoenixes before he can get an EMP off is not a realistic expectation...so i don't know if phoenix/colossus would end up being more cost-effective than templar/colosuss/gateway units.
edit: oh and there's no way in hell to do it with double forge. You just don't have the gas to go 2forge/colossus/twilight council AND phoenixes on 2 bases.Last edit: 2012-08-20 19:35:28 |
| | Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright. | |
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| ThaReckoning United States. August 20 2012 20:13. Posts 189 | Profile # |
On August 20 2012 19:32 Maybe a Duck wrote:
That means you also upgrade air aromor? interesting
I wonder htough what you mean by "sub out one gate for the cycore" as you need it anyways
maybe you say that cause of the upgrades?
also maybe its smarter to go 2 forge and shields+armor instead of air armor
The reasoning behind the air armor is to dull marine dps vs phoenii, and win the air battle. Phoenii trade well with vikings, so if you win the air battle, you win the game, because you can keep making colossi uncontested, and eventually be unstoppable on the ground. I said "sub one forge for the cycore", I'll explain.
In my head, I have a plan for the midgame against terran, on two base. There's a certain amount of stuff I want to be able to afford and get away with, and I want to maximize what I can get away with.
For a colossus first build: 1 core, 2 forges, 6 gates, robo, tc, and robo bay = 12. Here we have a high building count, because of large periods of time cutting units, and building units that take a long time to build. Stalkers, immortals, colossi, upgrades, etc.
For colossus phoenix: 1 core, 1 forge, 5 gates, robo, tc, and stargate = 10. Here we have less buildings, because we have shorter build times in the zealot, phoenii, higher sentry count, etc. We're not skipping out on warp ins to tech, we're hitting them all and teching more slowly. Make more sense?
Edit: Although, in retrospect I bet you could afford up to 7 gateways of stuff on 2 base, seeing as zealots are so much cheaper than stalkers, etc. I'll play with it. Last edit: 2012-08-20 20:18:33 |
| | If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose. |
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| ThaReckoning United States. August 20 2012 20:17. Posts 189 | Profile # |
On August 20 2012 19:33 Teoita wrote:
I feel like if the terran goes heavily into upgrades your ground army might end up being too weak as your upgrades will always be behind his (and we all know how bad that is), but if he delays his second eng bay and armory for a while it might be worth trying.
With that in mind, i think the best way to go about phoenix/colossus might be just doing a super standard colossus+single forge build, and have a certain "trigger" in mind for when you can go extra stargates...for example, holding off his medivac timing with colossi and throwing down 2 stargates.
With that said, EMP might still ruin your day by making phoenixes and colossi really easily sniped. Lifting up a ghost with phoenixes before he can get an EMP off is not a realistic expectation...so i don't know if phoenix/colossus would end up being more cost-effective than templar/colosuss/gateway units.
edit: oh and there's no way in hell to do it with double forge. You just don't have the gas to go 2forge/colossus/twilight council AND phoenixes on 2 bases.
I usually do very well against terrans that invest heavily in ground upgrades. You can get +2 and +3 armor pretty fast if you start early and stay on top of them, and since your high colossus count does a lot of extra dps compared to a lower colossus count + having to hit storms, you'll be fine.
EMP would be the worst thing to do here for a terran imo, as colossi giggle at EMP, and zealots don't get hurt much by it. As for the number of buildings, every time I expand, I add a robo, sg, and 2 gates, to keep it simple. It's a really easy build to play because it's suicide to try and drop into it, and there's not a lot of micro or macro to it. I like it. |
| | If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose. |
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| Maybe a Duck Germany. August 20 2012 20:37. Posts 51 | Profile # |
i usualy go for attack upgrades cause it scales well with the aoe of the collossi. You think upgrades on the chrgelots are more important?
Thinking about it, the dps is probably enough anyways and this way you dont have to rely on forcefields due to weak zealots
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| graNite Germany. August 20 2012 20:55. Posts 1950 | Profile Blog # |
| you should also upgrade shield so that every unit profits. |
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| Maybe a Duck Germany. August 20 2012 22:09. Posts 51 | Profile # |
@granite im bad at quoting but thats what i suggested some posts ago^^
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| Asmodeusx August 20 2012 23:11. Posts 282 | Profile Blog # |
I play Phoenix/Colossus in PvT in high masters. The correct way to do it is to skip blink and any stalkers past the initial 2 (obviously sometimes you need to react with stalkers) and go to zealot/colossus with armor upgrades and put stargate down about when your first colossus if finishing. The second way is to go chargelot/colossus with attack upgrades and delay the phoenixes, this deals with anything on 2 bases because chargelot+colossus with attack upgrades have sick burst demage.
You obviously need sentries with this.
Start adding attack upgrades for phoenixes as soon as you make them and keep up with the upgrades as it makes HUGE diffirence in phoenix vs viking.
If you can get to late game with mass colossus/phoenix with guardian shield (literaly no zealots, no stalkers, no anything else, you need 10+ colossi) it can fight standard Ghost/Viking/MMM unlike templar/colossus/whatever compositions which rely on terran making mistakes. |
| | Hermetis Vögelein ist mein Nahm verlahs meine Flügel und werde zahm. |
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| StarGalaxy Germany. August 20 2012 23:13. Posts 595 | Profile # |
I used to play this style way back nearly 2 years ago.
It's not a terrible strategy but only works against terrains who don't know how to deal with it.
I got a lot of free wins with it because ppl just didn't scout it in time or didn't know how to react. Not sure if that is still the case.
What i think you do or what i did was getting speedzealots colosses and phoenix (instead of stalkers).
There are several problems with it:
1. you have to cut something to get up the stargates, this means your 3rd or your upgrades will be late which both is a big deal against terran.
2. speedzealots do very well against bio if they have better upgrades or the opponent don't know how to kite.
If they have less upgrades which might be the case with that build they don't even get in range to do damage or they don't take enough damage to shield the colosses.
3. If terran a moves in your army you nearly everytime win. But if the terran snipes the colosses beforehand or focus fires the colosses in the fight while kiting is mmm outside the range of the colosses you will be left over with a gateway phoenix army which is weak on his own.
and there are some more problems i am too lazy to list atm.
Last edit: 2012-08-20 23:16:15 |
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| Asmodeusx August 20 2012 23:23. Posts 282 | Profile Blog # |
On August 20 2012 23:13 OrbitalPlane wrote:
1. you have to cut something to get up the stargates, this means your 3rd or your upgrades will be late which both is a big deal against terran.
Stalkers.
On August 20 2012 23:13 OrbitalPlane wrote:
2. speedzealots do very well against bio if they have better upgrades or the opponent don't know how to kite.
Colossi.
On August 20 2012 23:13 OrbitalPlane wrote:
3. If terran a moves in your army you nearly everytime win. But if the terran snipes the colosses beforehand or focus fires the colosses in the fight while kiting is mmm outside the range of the colosses you will be left over with a gateway phoenix army which is weak on his own.
Phoenixes.
You cut stalkers. Expensive and not needed in this composition unit.
Your colossi outrange bio so you back up your zealots or forcefield.
You can't just "snipe" colossi. If you play correctly phoenixes should kill all vikings before vikings kill more than 2 colossi. Then, if he has enaugh vikings to attempt such move, you should have 3+ colossi still left and he would have zero vikings, gg. With upgrades on phoenixes it comes down to positioning. In theory he could kite you with vikings, in reality i haven't seen it. Ever. Because you would have to kite perfectly 2 armies at the same time. Ground army and vikings. It all comes down to positioning.Last edit: 2012-08-20 23:24:55 |
| | Hermetis Vögelein ist mein Nahm verlahs meine Flügel und werde zahm. |
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| SidewinderSC2 United States. August 21 2012 02:41. Posts 219 | Profile # |
I very often watch a mid-Masters Terran friend of mine play, and occasionally he will play people that try to get into this composition by opening Phoenix after a 1gate FE, or even Phoenix into expand. Every time I see that, I just tell him "just wait for Stim and go kill him". It works every time because he has like 8 gateway units and one Colossus in production.
What I'm getting at is that you need to play a quite standard PvT by getting up 2-base Colossus, then start your Stargate and Phoenix production probably after your 2nd Colossus (typically when they would start Vikings). Going Stargate first is a really bad idea, and I see a lot of Master Protoss players attempt it and die without putting up a fight at all to a simple stim timing.
I also think your Zealot count will need to be quite high during the midgame, so taking a 3rd really quickly while getting Colossus AND Phoenix also seems like a bad idea. I'd shoot for something more like a 13-minute 3rd, since as your Colossus and Phoenix count gets larger, the odds of you winning fights is much better.
Just thought I'd throw that out there, since I don't see mention of it in the OP. Your theory/build order seems to agree with what I suggest. The only thing I'm not fond of is the double Stargate. Just make one and use your immense amount of available chronoboost to get as many out as you can. Double Stargate Phoenix piles up really quickly, and then your Stargates will sit idle forever. On 3 bases, I'd suggest double Robo Colossus, since if you win the ground fight by blasting through his army with like 6 Colossus or more, then what are his Vikings going to do? Land and fight Zealots or be subject to Phoenix lifts? |
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| Maybe a Duck Germany. August 21 2012 19:49. Posts 51 | Profile # |
Just tried your method asmodeus,
I managed to win but it got kinda iffy cause the single stargate is at some point not sufficient anymore if the opponent commits heavily to vikings, so do you have a specific timing for a second stargate?
also i found i could not constantly go air upgrades cause i would have needed a fleet beacon realy early which seems like a huge commitment before the third has been running for quite some time.
still chargelot archon transition saved the day^^Last edit: 2012-08-21 20:21:38 |
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| ineversmile United States. August 21 2012 20:08. Posts 571 | Profile Blog # |
You can support one colossus and one phoenix constant production off of 2 bases. That leaves a bit of room for about an upgrade or two per minute, so when you get on 3 bases you can start going up to double robo or double stargate, or both if you have one of each production building only being half-used. I personally like the second robo so I can keep making Colossi, but also make Immortals so I can handle the inevitable mass Marauder+Viking that occurs when you invest in this composition--or most any composition with mass Colossi.
Probably the most challenging thing about Phoenixes in PvT is the multitasking--you have to babysit Phoenixes to get your money's worth out of them, but you also have to balance controlling the rest of your army, keeping eyes on the minimap, and macroing smoothly. But the second-most challenging thing, in my opinion, is that you have to know when to time out the Stargate and the second Stargate or second Robo based upon fluid intel. |
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| Asmodeusx August 21 2012 20:14. Posts 282 | Profile Blog # |
On August 21 2012 19:49 Maybe a Duck wrote:
Just tried your method asmodeus,
I managed to win but it got kinda iffy cause the single stargate is at some point not sufficient anymore if the opponent commits heavily to vikings, so do you have a specific timing for a second stargate?
also i found i could constantly go air upgrades cause i would have needed a fleet beacon realy early which seems like a huge commitment before the third has been running for quite some time.
still chargelot archon transition saved the day^^
Add second stargate and fleet beacon when your 3rd base kicks in and you can support it. It's just like adding more gateways, you add them when you know you'll have to produce more units.
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| | Hermetis Vögelein ist mein Nahm verlahs meine Flügel und werde zahm. |
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| Wasihasi Germany. August 21 2012 21:53. Posts 31 | Profile # |
It would be very nice if someone, who has ample experience playing this style, could upload at least 2-3 replays. This will really helps immensly. Essentially, how are you dealing with the MM with Stim and Drops + multipronged attacks?
Assorted Questions:
1. Wenn you get Fleet beacon, does it makes sense to get range upgrade for phoenix? How their range compares to the vikings?
2. After you get to 4+ Bases (if this happens at all, or you can just push the terran on 3-4 Bases due to massive colo count and/or upgrade advantage), does it makes sense to start building carriers? Are those good against MMMVG?
3. It seems, that getting ground upgrade advantage just does not happens, due to also upgrading air, is this right? Does it makes sense at any point to start double forge and/or double cyber?
4. Mothership - Yes/No? As you already has tech, will it make sense do add it? As terran, who has scans it is probably less efficent, than against Z, on the other hand recall or vortex might be mighty useful?
P.S. Will it make sense, to go 3 Gate into Stargate, with delayed Robo? You dont need as much observers, due to phoenixes, which can do the same, while still harassing the T minerallines, as well as holding the watchtowers. It is probably more micro intensive, than Robo first, on the other hand you will get some kills in the mineral line for sure.
P.P.S. How many Sentries one should aim for at the midgame? 4-6-12?Last edit: 2012-08-21 22:03:15 |
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| DeathAndPain Germany. August 21 2012 22:28. Posts 17 | Profile # |
Basically I like the phoenix/colossus approach, but I see a couple problems. I believe terran can easily beat it by going 1/1/1 with the usual early terror banshee and then evolving into a mechanized ground army. How do you prevent that? Yes, your phoenixes can shoot down his banshee, but his banshee will appear in your base well before you get your first phoenixes, seeing that you pay for robotics facility, support bay, one colossus and probably also the colossus range upgrade first. With your low stalker count his banshee can majorly terrorize you even without cloak. 2 stalkers cannot prevent that, especially when you are spread out over 2 bases. Not even more stalkers without blink can. If you park 2 stalks at every base, he will start killing pylons at the other end of your base. Making more stalkers does not compare well to 1 lone banshee resource/pop-wise anyway.
Later on when you move in with colossi, a mechanized Terran army (with a couple marines that he accumulates from his single barracks over time) will not die as easily to colossus fire as MMM would. Sieged tanks outrange your colossi and do sizeable damage to them. You can only try lifting them up front with your phoenixes, but that means tricky micro, because your phoenixes then operate over his single-barracks-marine pack that accompanies his tanks and that your colossi cannot reach yet because you need to fix the tanks 1st. Occasional Thors also have good air defense and cannot be lifted. Then there are those vikings that approximately tie vs phoenix pop-wise, but your phoenix cannot afford fighting those over his marines.
Any chargelots that may be accompanying your colossi and hope to charge at his tanks have a problem with his hellions.
Mass colossi are pretty much the only viable response to MMM. They do not fare that well vs a mechanized army though. I do not see how you can reliably scout early enough to see whether he is going 1/1/1 so that you can ditch the colossus/phoenix approach and readjust your buildup before it is too late.
Also, I generally doubt that phoenixes are the solution to vikings. I agree that he cannot kite the phoenixes in a real game, but even in an infight confrontation I'd say that phoenixes approximately tie vs Vikings, so it comes down to who has more. If he goes for mass vikings to kill your colossi no matter what you will have a hard time coming up with an equal amount of phoenixes (especially since you do not always know how many vikings he already has, and massively over-producing phoenixes is just too expensive). Meanwhile, he can afford the fact that his vikings are not good for much once your colossi are down, because without colossi, standard MMM will steamroll you even if your ground army has far more pop value due to him having much of his pop in vikings. |
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| JulDraGoN Sweden. August 21 2012 22:33. Posts 20 | Profile # |
Do you have any replays?
I used to love playing a style like this but it was more of a late game transition so it might not be relevant.
But the way I remeber Phoenix+Collosus play out was that my terran opponent went either double reactored starports and got air superiority or he built no vikings at all, just masses of marauders, ghosts and marines. Both felt to me almost impossible to deal with after investing alot into phoenix. Anyways thats why I stopped doing it I'm too lazy and not clever enough to figure out how to play it correctly. However, if he picked any middle ground like just getting some vikings I usually won convincingly.
I would really appreciate if you could post some replays, you've probably figured something out that I didnt think of.
Thank you. |
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| ineversmile United States. August 21 2012 22:39. Posts 571 | Profile Blog # |
On August 21 2012 21:53 Wasihasi wrote:
It would be very nice if someone, who has ample experience playing this style, could upload at least 2-3 replays. This will really helps immensly. Essentially, how are you dealing with the MM with Stim and Drops + multipronged attacks?
My replays folder either was accidentally deleted somehow, or otherwise has vanished from my PC. I'll upload some replays when I play more games, in a day or two.
You want to deal with the initial stim/medivac/+1 timing by getting 2 Colossi, getting range, and putting 2 halves of your army at each base. There's nothing special about this, aside from knowing how to defend drops with colossus tech. The phoenixes should be starting to pop out around this timing, since ideally you want to throw down a stargate as soon as you have the gas after starting your first colossus and range. Be very defensive until you get 3+ phoenixes and range for your colossi, and then you can use the Phoenixes to start pushing drops away and use your Colossi to push out and either take a third or go over there and all-in/heavy pressure the Terran, depending on what you scout he's doing.
Assorted Questions:
1. Wenn you get Fleet beacon, does it makes sense to get range upgrade for phoenix? How their range compares to the vikings?
2. After you get to 4+ Bases (if this happens at all, or you can just push the terran on 3-4 Bases due to massive colo count and/or upgrade advantage), does it makes sense to start building carriers? Are those good against MMMVG?
3. It seems, that getting ground upgrade advantage just does not happens, due to also upgrading air, is this right? Does it makes sense at any point to start double forge and/or double cyber?
4. Mothership - Yes/No? As you already has tech, will it make sense do add it? As terran, who has scans it is probably less efficent, than against Z, on the other hand recall or vortex might be mighty useful?
1. Yes. Range is a higher priority than +2 air weapons or teching Carriers because range will allow you to fight large groups of vikings without losing 1/3 to 1/2 your phoenixes to the inital viking volleys. They also give your Phoenixes higher range than marines, so you can pick off stray medivacs while taking lower damage this way.
2. Yes. Carriers don't show up often in PvT because people don't build Stargates in the first place, and it's quite a tech transition. Since protosses are so used to dumping all of their gas into rebuilding HTs and Archons, they feel like they don't have the gas to get those upgrades at the Core or to go into an air switch. But if you're already sitting on a stargate or two and a Fleet Beacon, the next logical progression is to get the high DPS protoss siege unit and add those to your deathball.
3. You should go single Forge after your Stargate, and get the Twilight for charge before you get your second forge. You basically need charge before you can upgrade your stuff further than 1-1, and you won't have the gas to support double forge until you get on 3 bases. Even then, if you're adding on another stargate and a Beacon and upgrading air weapons, you might never be able to afford another forge until 4 bases. This is the decision you make when you choose a very tech-based army with a lot of gas units; you will have worse upgrades as a result. I personally think that it is better, if possible, to go double forge chargelots instead of 2base Colossi in order to hold the Terran drop timing, then go into Phoenixes to punish the dropships and kill off a lot of the bio units that moved out. This army isn't going to get into the terran's natural or main because it's basically melee units, but it can't move out, and you have what amounts to a muta flock that can pick off stray units or drops while you take a third, power up gates, and tech either choice of AoE. This is a much more difficult style to pull off than going into Colossi and then Phoenixes because you super-delay AoE and you have to be really careful about engaging during the ~10 minute timing...but if you play your cards right, you get insanely far ahead by just defending the attack and running down stragglers with charge and grav-lifts.
4. I only build a mothership for mass recall against Terran. It's not like I don't plan to use the vortex if the situations arrives, but basically you can't expect a good player to let you vortex his army when he has ghosts. And every terran gets ghosts, because even if you don't have casters around they do ridiculous bonus damage to light units, and your army will have a ton of chargelots and phoenixes throughout the midgame. However, recalls are really good when you get to 4 or 5 bases and you both are dealing with maxed, fully-upgraded armies so you need to find some kind of positional edge. Being able to warp your army onto his production or to hunt bases and then warp back home to defend...they're pretty good skills.
P.S. Will it make sense, to go 3 Gate into Stargate, with delayed Robo? You dont need as much observers, due to phoenixes, which can do the same, while still harassing the T minerallines, as well as holding the watchtowers. It is probably more micro intensive, than Robo first, on the other hand you will get some kills in the mineral line for sure.
There are two problems with this, and neither of them have to do with the phoenixes themselves, but rather your lack of other tech/gas investments:
1. If you skip a robo and they get cloaked banshees, you're going to lose 15 probes or more and probably bleed out and die if you don't get lucky and catch them out on the map to force early cloak. People are going banshees in the midgame nowadays because it takes a different preparation to handle cloakshees than it does to handle the stim timing, and people often only have one observer on the map or have a delayed robo and get punished for it. I guess you could go into Stargate and then follow it up with a ~8 minute robo so you can build obs if you see a tech lab starport. Just make sure you have a plan. Phoenixes+Obs are the best counter to banshees, but if you don't have the obs, cloaked banshees will ruin your life.
2. The stim timing can just kill you if your tech is just a squad of Phoenixes and some unupgraded gateway units without charge or blink. Like I was saying above, you can go chargelots and some upgrades and then get Phoenixes, and it's really strong against the Stim timing while setting you up with air presence and lots of upgrades simultaneously. It's just really, really difficult to play that style, for multiple reasons. But, the reward is a muta-ling army with faster mutas and beefier lings. |
| | Nostradamus.146@AM, Nostradamus.398@KR, Nostradamus.922@EU http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/ins |
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