Hi TL, I am a diamond protoss switching back from about 3 months of trying terran (of which i am around the same level) and my biggest problem is my PvT.
I feel like my army is so spread out and weak when the terran has medivacs and I don't have any AOE or a third base, and I've been dying a lot to the standard 2 medivac pressures. And so I ask you for your help.
All of these games are played against a master league friend, who often cannot give more advice beyond 'macro better' and don't get supply blocked. I conceed that I really do need to work on my macro, and that my friend macros better than me in all these games, but the margin by which I am getting crushed leads me to believe that there is perhaps something else I might be doing wrong.
I have tried two styles thusfar against this. CreatorPrime's double forge build as written up by NrGMonk and PartinG's 1 archon 2 templar + chargelot build which I learnt from G2 of Parting vs Virus at IPL4 Winner's Round 3
General observations: -In all my games, My initial 3 warpgates idle for a long time. Perhaps i should make more use of them, but i have found that i don't have enought money for zealots while getting buildings and tech structures quickly enough. -My Macro under pressure often slips very badly -I need to watch out for supply blocks -I keep 22 probes in my main once i get 22 at both my main and nat and rally the rest down to the natural. Perhaps I should rerally the main back to the main minerals to split the extra probes? -I sometimes (often?) anti-micro -My Forcefield micro leaves much to be desired. I can block ramps fairly effectively, but cutting armies in half, i often cut too much, or too little or fail at it altogether.
Double Forge: (Cloud Kingdom, dur. 11:49) http://drop.sc/242130 -My forges came a bit early -I didn't forcefield off the army to buy time for extra units and lost too many zealots for free -As a result, I had to spend more forcefields and ran out of energy for gs at the end
(Cloud Kingdom, dur 19:29) http://drop.sc/242126 -more or less how i wanted to execute the build -zealots got stuck behind sentries -I pull probes and hold off from dying, but the game is essentially over as I lose 27 probes
(WCS Daybreak, dur 11;43) http://drop.sc/242127 -Didn't have enough gas to start 1/1 right away -got supply blocked really badly just before the battle began -Macro slipple big time during fight
(WCS Cloud Kingdom, dur 11:45) http://drop.sc/242129 -only got the 4th gate, as opposed to the 4th + 5th gate that parting gets -got 4 sentries, as opposed to 3 -forcefield fails
(Metropolis LE, dur 11:57) http://drop.sc/242128 -basically how i wanted to perform this build -but i wanted to take a 3rd, and chased his army into the open, where my zealots got caught behind my stalkers, and my army was crushed.
Which build do you believe suits me better? Do you have any other suggestions for builds? What am I doing wrong?
If you could help me to improve my PvT it would be much appreciated ^_^
name changed from iREight
Arachne South Africa. August 22 2012 19:44. Posts 391
I noted that you don't have any AoE. Its not impossible to get AoE by then, or alternatively mass chargelots with a quick +1 armour (ala Adelscott v MvP TSL 3), or good forcefields with immortals will help you. IF you are thinking that you can't hold the push, hold back your tech a bit. Its not a massive problem, as CB is amazing.
I've lost mineral lines, armies and nexii and managed to come back still. CB is amazing.
Also tell your masters friend that "Macro better" is the ignorant response. If you're short of units, make sure ur warp gates are never on CD. IF you think your behind in tech get them a little bit faster.
If you think your Ff's are too slow, rather spend them a little bit earlier. Why? well it makes your next round of warp ins, your upgrades or your AoE even that much closer (typically my storm finished just after the push comes).
Biggest thing with PvT is find something your comfortable with, stick to it, and practice that. That ten minute bio push is almost always the same thing, +1 attack (maybe +1 armour), 2/4 medivacs and stimmed bio. So look at whats giving u the bigger problems and counter that.
I've also found that a 5th gate helps hold the pressure a lot easier.
Also, don't be afraid to probe scout to make sure whats coming and when its coming.
I noticed you said that you battle to cut armies in half. Don't engage Terran in the field unless ur MC. IF you're not setting up for pressure, stay near ur base get tech get defense.
Also, practicing vs a masters player a lot isnt the greatest morale booster either.
At point one: Warpgates musnt be idle for long periods. Hold back macro n tech if you must, but don't lose out on army. T is producing units the whole time, and they get to queue. We dont. 2. Supply blocks are meh. Practice, and just making sure u have pylons. Look at the top right every other time u look at the mini map or something. 3. To maynard, or not to maynard, that is the question. Thats not qhy you arr losing (although we aren't zerg, I get about 26 at each base) 4. Anti micro? 5. Don't force the fields to work for you, make them work.
6. If you can't afford double forge, don't build them. CB is amazing. ur 3/3 will finish b4 his, and if you arent comfortable with it, don't get them, rather get 1 more zealot sentry 7.Don't hesitate to do this, will win u more games then u lose + sentries might be able to FF more than once 8. Zealots behind sentries ... Too many sentries? Prepare your army before the engagement comes. put zealots in front always. 9. The game is over when your dead. If he chose to not macro and decide to try kill you, well your tech is finishing up, you maybe ahead. Alternatively, a quick 3rd n 4th while he goes back to macro might just put you ahead, and recover the probe count
10. IF you don't have thee gas income for 1/1, don't get double forge... Its a big investment. Also if you are getting double forge, the earliest you (or at least me) really want it finishing is in time for that ten minute push. Anything else is just a waste of resources especially if you are battling to hold it. Don't get a twilight until 1/1 is about 60% either. Waste of resources, UNLESS you are wanting Chargelots with 1/1 (OP)
11. 5 gates are good. If the pro's are doing it, you do it. 3 gate expo into 5 gate robo off 2 bases is about what you can support while still macroing. (Or twilight tech, not both)
12. 4 sentries isnt a crime. Maybe too slow on the gas on your nat? 13. forcefields seem easier than stutter step micro from the terran. They aren't. Work with w/e delay you're using, anticipate them. OR if you're feeling up for it, skip the sentries, get more tech quicker. I get one or 2 sentries, get uber quick 1/1 and charge. Then use guardian shield for defense, or if its b4 my AoE is done, I use a FF or two to hold them off. We arentt MC who can split armies perfectly (Think it was MC taeja on Daybreak in the Assembly finals)
14. Don't let your stalkers get ahead, especially without blink. Toss units all move different speeds. Not joking, with charge researched, not a single gateway unit moves at the same speed as each other. Be aware of this. Also, if you are trying to take a 3rd after holding his push, don't move out. thats 400 minerals that you don't have to warp in with. P is sooo favoured in the late game after his push has failed, just carry on with ur tech, and using CB to get further ahead.
If I were a rich man, I wouldn't be here
Raggamuffinoo United Kingdom. August 22 2012 20:56. Posts 115
If you follow the relative timings in the first game where Day9 first explains it you should have 0 trouble against medivac timings. In fact you can both defend and counter attack
The build also focuses on charge zealots which require nothing more than a few attack move commands, you should be able to focus on macro whilst in battle. You can safely take a third safely after you have a warpprism near/in his base. Tech to either colossus or storm (or both) and defend until you have enough defense against drops for you to move out and take map control.
I die to that stuff too when trying both double forge and parting's build in Master, it's annoying as hell.
The thing is that terrans tend to commit really really heavily when they don't see you going fast colossus, and if you don't have really really good micro on your gateway units they will inflict a lot of damage.
Other than practicing the builds (and most especially forcefields and positioning) over and over again, what you could do is try to make sure that medivac timing is less scary through your own builds. If you are determined to open HT/upgrades instead of colossi, try going 3gate aggression into it rather than a safer 3gate robo; you will have more units and your aggression should delay the terran's timing by about one minute, giving you time, for example, to get nice production off your 7-8 gates. When you feel comfortable holding off his timing off your 3gate aggression, you can open more defensively and see if you feel any difference.
Last edit: 2012-08-22 21:16:53
Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Raggamuffinoo United Kingdom. August 22 2012 21:31. Posts 115
On August 22 2012 21:16 Teoita wrote: I die to that stuff too when trying both double forge and parting's build in Master, it's annoying as hell.
The thing is that terrans tend to commit really really heavily when they don't see you going fast colossus, and if you don't have really really good micro on your gateway units they will inflict a lot of damage.
Other than practicing the builds (and most especially forcefields and positioning) over and over again, what you could do is try to make sure that medivac timing is less scary through your own builds. If you are determined to open HT/upgrades instead of colossi, try going 3gate aggression into it rather than a safer 3gate robo; you will have more units and your aggression should delay the terran's timing by about one minute, giving you time, for example, to get nice production off your 7-8 gates. When you feel comfortable holding off his timing off your 3gate aggression, you can open more defensively and see if you feel any difference.
To micro gateway units vs early bio aggression, use guardian shield + attack move on zealot/sentry, focus fire stalkers on marauders/medivacs. This will accomplish as much as possible and allow you to focus elsewhere.
dont quote me
Mr. Bojangles United States. August 22 2012 23:56. Posts 15
Have you tried Parting's gateway style? I have become a huge fan of that style. It's a build designed to go against FE Terrans and that are just turtling til that 10min, 2 medivac timing. It's a very strong build, as Terran doesn't apply any early pressure, you're free to focus on macro and can go batshit crazy with your gateways and really put the pressure on before medivacs get out. It's actually a timing that hits before stim and medivacs come out, but I tend to delay it for a few seconds to get another warp and it wins I want to say about 85% of the time. It's broken fronts with 3 bunkers, just as long FF are good. It may not end the game right out (depending if they rage quit) , but it will put you ahead if the front is broken. I have had games where it hasn't worked and I have had to come back home to defend that medivac attack, but because the amount of gates you have, defending wasn't all that hard, even without AOE. Just need to deny the medivacs the high ground to your main and FF your ramp so they can't stim up your natural's ramp.
If you want a detailed analysis on it, I would look up Day9's daily, I'm pretty sure it's named Parting's PvT Gateway Style or something along them lines. I'm rank 20ish Diamond and use this strategy most of the time, and it does prevail most of the time, if done correctly.
Mr. Bojangles United States. August 23 2012 00:00. Posts 15
If you do creator prime double forge shouldn't you have the collo out pretty easily for the 10 minute push. If you see it coming with your obs then you should go for the collo.
I'm an egg breaker http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=363033 "MVP King of wings" #1 Choya Fanboi!!! <3
Honestly, if you know that medivac timing is coming (which comes probably 90% fof the time), you're better off not using the double forge build especially at lower leagues. Not getting twilight til 8:40 and robo at 11:45 you're putting yourself at a serious disadvantage. Why? You might not have charge or blink (depends if you're good with timing and remember to get it as soon as TC is done), nor will you have col out in time. Is that really worth the double upgrades? Compared to the build that the terran is doing, I think the double forge build requires some good unit control and macro to keep up, which is why I wouldn't suggest it in the lower leagues.
Besides, the only upgrade really worth getting vs. Terran in the early game is the +1 def, that way your zealots last a bit longer when they're stuttering stepping them. Which you know you don't need 2 forges for
Last edit: 2012-08-23 07:52:05
pyrostat Korea (South). August 23 2012 07:56. Posts 70
So, I like to play a gateway heavy style, personally, but i'll describe what i do. I always, ALWAYS leave my stalkers in the backside of my base with 4-5 sentries in front. Since you're going double forge with chargelot upgrades, build 1 cannon at the front. Now these may seem stupid or a wtf, what a waste thing, but it actually HELPS a lot!. The problem with chargelot sentry (which should be at ur front) is that it cannot shoot up very effectively. You can zone out, but u cant really damage. Having the cannon at the front will allow you to forcefield out while still taking shots. (zealots should be on hold position and NOT engaging unless ur opponent commits). Now If you have at least 4 gate ways, warp 2 zealots at the front and 2 stalkers/high templar wherever u need it. Stalkers are there for dissauding drops. If they do a double drop in the main, send ur units there. Leaving only 2 sentries behind. Because you have the cannon at the front it becomes harder for them to send just a pack of marines to snipe some probes.
Also: If you kill their stuff, that means they have given up their mid game aggression. Terran aren't supposed to lose stuff in their drops. If u kill most or all, that means u can expand get colossus and add more gateways while pushing out.
So in summary: 1 Cannon in front ,stalker in the back. At least 4 gateways (when going into mid game) and warp in zealots at the front and stalkers/hightemplar in the back.
You get a 1 gate FE + 2 gates (total of 3) and apply pressure to the terran's front at ~7 minute mark which is awesome since it gives you scouting information, and you get a big chunk of his scv's which makes his medivacs delayed by a lot, and sometimes you win the game right there.
In this one:http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-475-warp-prism-pvt-style/
You get a 1 gate FE +2 gates as well, but you go for chargelot archon and a warp prism which you send exactly while he is moving out. It sounds weird, but it works great.
And this is Mr. Bojangles's opening(which is awesome as well):
*Most other PvT openings i know, put protoss in a disadvantage. This is why i strongly recommend these 3.
Larkin United Kingdom. August 23 2012 09:02. Posts 1373
This is one of the biggest problems in PvT for me as well, I've taken to literally rushing for Colossi off two base, with about 4-6 gates. You have colossi out and their push won't work, you don't need charge or anything (get +1 armor though).
Then it leaves you open for an attack while taking a 3rd.
On August 22 2012 23:56 Mr. Bojangles wrote: Have you tried Parting's gateway style? I have become a huge fan of that style. It's a build designed to go against FE Terrans and that are just turtling til that 10min, 2 medivac timing. It's a very strong build, as Terran doesn't apply any early pressure, you're free to focus on macro and can go batshit crazy with your gateways and really put the pressure on before medivacs get out. It's actually a timing that hits before stim and medivacs come out, but I tend to delay it for a few seconds to get another warp and it wins I want to say about 85% of the time. It's broken fronts with 3 bunkers, just as long FF are good. It may not end the game right out (depending if they rage quit) , but it will put you ahead if the front is broken. I have had games where it hasn't worked and I have had to come back home to defend that medivac attack, but because the amount of gates you have, defending wasn't all that hard, even without AOE. Just need to deny the medivacs the high ground to your main and FF your ramp so they can't stim up your natural's ramp.
If you want a detailed analysis on it, I would look up Day9's daily, I'm pretty sure it's named Parting's PvT Gateway Style or something along them lines. I'm rank 20ish Diamond and use this strategy most of the time, and it does prevail most of the time, if done correctly.
I have played a lot of parting style as high master protoss EU for several weeks now and I have some comments on this build:
The good thing is the superior army count and economy that you get by grabbing your third at 6.30. If you dont take your third that fast, this build is shit. You need to attack at around 8-9 minutes with this style and to be able to grab a fast third + 8gw + hard attacking you need to do a parting expand, which dies to various unscoutable terran allins/pressures such as Taejas rax/hellion eco timing, marine scv allin and cloakshees.
basically this build is good against bio players who sit on their ass for 10 mins, and bad against everything else.
I am looking for a good build against terran too but I have that exact problem.
I despise every terran player on this earth, and I hope there is a special place in hell saved for them.
ellsworth United States. August 23 2012 09:32. Posts 30
Watched your first cloud kingdom. Biggest reason you lost, he went CC first, you went gate core then expand. Throughout all the early and midgame the two of you had equal worker counts, but he had mules. You were economically behind, he ended the game with the push where you sac'd your workers. During that fight he made a blunder, had 1k mins and only 2 rax (he built many immediately afterward). Your only hope at that point was to push, but you stayed passive instead and lost the game. You might have been able to force him to pull his nat for a short time if you countered, but you didn't. It was probably a lost game anyway, but playing it safe is playing exactly into his hands.
Additionally, now I watched your last game on metropolis. IMO Rax CC > Core expand in terms of economy. You were in the lead for workers (unlike the first cloud kingdom) but you didn't have a big enough lead. At the time of engagement you had a slightly smaller army (many fewer minerals, somewhat more gas) and got your lots completely blocked behind stalkers. Had that not happened you probably wouldn't have lost right there, you wouldn't have stomped his army, but I don't think it was game over.
My take is that you are content to sit back while he takes a greedier opening. He gets out to an eco advantage then waits for the first timing where he is quite strong and rolls over you.
Last edit: 2012-08-23 09:53:47
superstartran United States. August 23 2012 09:49. Posts 1307
On August 23 2012 09:02 Larkin wrote: This is one of the biggest problems in PvT for me as well, I've taken to literally rushing for Colossi off two base, with about 4-6 gates. You have colossi out and their push won't work, you don't need charge or anything (get +1 armor though).
Then it leaves you open for an attack while taking a 3rd.
Once you have 3-4 Colossi you can take the third pretty securely and just turtle until you have a massive 200 3/3 deathball. I used to routinely do this all the time when I played Protoss against Terran players who would try and hit me with a 10 minute Medivac timing. As long as you stave off that timing and don't take any massive damage from drops, you just have to play safe and just slowly expand. Once you've secured your 4th the game is all but yours, start banking minerals/gas and just get ready to remax with 15+ WGs.
It's very difficult for the Terran to attack you and make things happen as long as you just play passive. Even if you are behind economically, the Terran has to be extremely cost efficient, and you have to make alot of mistakes for him to win when you're just playing safe. Most of the time you'll win outright just because the Terran player is just being too aggressive and loses one too many Medivacs or too many units trying to multiprong harass you, and you can simply just go counter and win.
Last edit: 2012-08-23 09:51:29
-Cyrus- United States. August 23 2012 11:05. Posts 305
Yeah, as someone else said, you should consider rushing to colossus on 2 base. No kind of medivac timing can hurt you if you do that. In doing so, you pretty much force a long game no matter what. Taking a third can be hard, of course, but what I do is just get 1 colossus, no range, then get charge and storm. If I feel safe to take a third after charge, I'll do it then, but if I have to wait for storm, then so be it. After you tech and shit is all there, then the game because much easier.
Store
... Too many sentries? Prepare your army before the engagement comes. put zealots in front always.
pyrostat Korea (South). August 23 2012 07:56. Posts 70
