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| CreepyNA United States. August 23 2012 06:12. Posts 84 | Profile # |
Hello, I'm top 25 masters zerg and I'm having trouble with very greedy terran play. I don't want to all in every game against terrans in case they just choose not to play as greedy, but I'm also scared to play as greedy as them for the same reason. In each game I go 15 hatch, 17 pool and get 5-6 queens and a quick gasless third.
http://drop.sc/242241
In this game, I find his early third CC, but I don't know how early it was and I don't have enough info to commit to an all-in. (He also even SKIPS a bunker, showing exactly how greedy he is playing, but only saw this in the replay) In response, I try to play more greedy, but that becomes difficult because I don't know how greedy he'll be playing. He does some hellion harass but without doing any damage while I drone up. Around 10 minutes, I start making lings in case of a sudden attack. I scout a fast 4th so I take a 4th, 5th, and tech up to hive and ultras, but his income catches up to mine and he starts sending nonstop waves that I can't make enough units to defend against.
http://drop.sc/242242
My macro was weaker this game, but I try to play more aggressively to kill his greedy play. Again, I don't want to all-in, so I build a lot of drones and take a 4th. Around the time I wanted to move out, an attack of his came, so I moved out with it to intercept it midfield. However, the engagement was sloppier than I'd have liked and both armies cancelled out. Despite that, and despite his push failing, he still had enough economy that he could replace his forces faster than I could mine. As before, his income catches up, pushes ahead, and he kills me with expendable waves of troops.
Any thoughts or comments is greatly appreciated !!  Last edit: 2012-08-23 06:47:46 |
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| Crilmon United States. August 23 2012 06:34. Posts 24 | Profile # |
The strategy I've been executing recently, copied from Liquid'Sheth, is a roach/bane bust aimed at 9:30, after quad queen and a 6:30 3rd, allowing you to be safe AND apply pressure. If you're frustrated with both greedy and all-in plays, maybe some sort of high pressure like that would be preferable.
In the first game, your stack defense was WAY too much. the spores were ok, but the 3 spines costs 9 drones... he kept even with you on workers. Even if he plays greedy, you should be able to stay ahead in workers, from there he just outproduced you. He got the early econ lead from your defensiveness, and just took it with him to the mid/late game. you either need to play aggressive, or use your queens to defend so you can drone drone drone.
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| CreepyNA United States. August 23 2012 06:39. Posts 84 | Profile # |
On August 23 2012 06:34 Crilmon wrote:
The strategy I've been executing recently, copied from Liquid'Sheth, is a roach/bane bust aimed at 9:30, after quad queen and a 6:30 3rd, allowing you to be safe AND apply pressure. If you're frustrated with both greedy and all-in plays, maybe some sort of high pressure like that would be preferable.
In the first game, your stack defense was WAY too much. the spores were ok, but the 3 spines costs 9 drones... he kept even with you on workers. Even if he plays greedy, you should be able to stay ahead in workers, from there he just outproduced you. He got the early econ lead from your defensiveness, and just took it with him to the mid/late game. you either need to play aggressive, or use your queens to defend so you can drone drone drone.
Do you think you could link me to some of those replays, youtube videos, or stream replay where he did that build? |
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 Kronborg August 23 2012 06:43. Posts 11 | Profile # |
| Unless you're making a very quick macro hatch or third, you're much better off with 15 hatch 16 pool |
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| CreepyNA United States. August 23 2012 06:45. Posts 84 | Profile # |
On August 23 2012 06:43 Kronborg wrote:
Unless you're making a very quick macro hatch or third, you're much better off with 15 hatch 16 pool
If I scout cc 1st, I generally go 3rd base before pool, and this gives me alot of easy wins. |
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| Crilmon United States. August 23 2012 07:21. Posts 24 | Profile # |
http://www.twitch.tv/liquidsheth/b/329245149
1:05-1:15
1:25-1:40, better macro game, not dying to pressure
those are 2 good games, then I'll look through my reps and maybe upload 1-2 more
http://drop.sc/242265 - shakuras, vs bio, didn't actually bust, just threatened, protected my 3rd, and macroed
http://drop.sc/242266 - antiga, vs mech, pushed w/o banes to do some damage, keep banshees busy, already had roach warren to just massroach and kill him, was really weird opening too, idk
these are both at mid-high masters, I'm 1250, they were 1k and 1350 respectively
I tend to go spire for mutas in general, but I'm pretty positive that infestor would work just as well, though hive being delayed for even a minute can be huge on ultra timing
GL HFLast edit: 2012-08-23 07:39:30 |
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| CreepyNA United States. August 23 2012 07:45. Posts 84 | Profile # |
On August 23 2012 07:21 Crilmon wrote:http://www.twitch.tv/liquidsheth/b/3292451491:05-1:15 1:25-1:40, better macro game, not dying to pressure those are 2 good games, then I'll look through my reps and maybe upload 1-2 more http://drop.sc/242265 - shakuras, vs bio, didn't actually bust, just threatened, protected my 3rd, and macroed http://drop.sc/242266 - antiga, vs mech, pushed w/o banes to do some damage, keep banshees busy, already had roach warren to just massroach and kill him, was really weird opening too, idk these are both at mid-high masters, I'm 1250, they were 1k and 1350 respectively I tend to go spire for mutas in general, but I'm pretty positive that infestor would work just as well, though hive being delayed for even a minute can be huge on ultra timing GL HF
Thank you very much for the help  I watched the stream video from sheth and they helped so much !! I will also take a look at your replays in a bit Thanks for the quick responses! |
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| Crilmon United States. August 23 2012 07:56. Posts 24 | Profile # |
np, long time surfer hoping to give back to the community, give a few options out there at least.
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| Pookie Monster United States. August 23 2012 09:19. Posts 303 | Profile # |
| I suppose its been said, but some pressure is always good for either race, watching the replay i cant believe it was masters, if i ever neglected to build a bunker and go mass CC i would get rolled by even a mediocre roach baneling attack, ive never gotten as far as getting a third established without at least some response from the zerg. |
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| Crilmon United States. August 23 2012 09:40. Posts 24 | Profile # |
| Not to bash the defensive players, I know fitzy turtles like shit to hive, but you have to scout and play greedy yourself if needed to play that kind of hyper late game style, it's just so much harder to scout perfectly rather than just putting on some aggression. |
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| PersonDudeGuy Canada. August 23 2012 11:15. Posts 47 | Profile # |
No offense but at least from my personal experience and from the many games I have seen there is little if any amount of greed that a terran player can do that can not be solved with approximate greedy or a simple allin.
There are a large variety of things at play however, simple things that you should keep in mind in all games.
A) What were your upgrades?
B) What was your unit composition?
C) What/where were your expansions
D) Who has/had lost more expansions
E) Who's army was bigger?
F) When were the major engagements, who won? why? By how much?
All general questions that apply to basically all games, there is always stuff to improve, imo i find that there are usually less or harder things to improve on for terrans but i'm willing to bet you lost in a silly way like being caught out of position or missing an opertunity to kill him. |
| | Double hellion openings ftw |
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| ncsix August 23 2012 11:56. Posts 74 | Profile # |
On August 23 2012 06:12 CreepyNA wrote:Hello, I'm top 25 masters zerg and I'm having trouble with very greedy terran play. I don't want to all in every game against terrans in case they just choose not to play as greedy, but I'm also scared to play as greedy as them for the same reason. In each game I go 15 hatch, 17 pool and get 5-6 queens and a quick gasless third. http://drop.sc/242241In this game, I find his early third CC, but I don't know how early it was and I don't have enough info to commit to an all-in. (He also even SKIPS a bunker, showing exactly how greedy he is playing, but only saw this in the replay) In response, I try to play more greedy, but that becomes difficult because I don't know how greedy he'll be playing. He does some hellion harass but without doing any damage while I drone up. Around 10 minutes, I start making lings in case of a sudden attack. I scout a fast 4th so I take a 4th, 5th, and tech up to hive and ultras, but his income catches up to mine and he starts sending nonstop waves that I can't make enough units to defend against. http://drop.sc/242242My macro was weaker this game, but I try to play more aggressively to kill his greedy play. Again, I don't want to all-in, so I build a lot of drones and take a 4th. Around the time I wanted to move out, an attack of his came, so I moved out with it to intercept it midfield. However, the engagement was sloppier than I'd have liked and both armies cancelled out. Despite that, and despite his push failing, he still had enough economy that he could replace his forces faster than I could mine. As before, his income catches up, pushes ahead, and he kills me with expendable waves of troops. Any thoughts or comments is greatly appreciated !!
Hi, just for the record, I'm Plat Z on KR server.
I don't quite understand why you don't want to "all-in", actually that term gets thrown around way too much. My personal opinion is the objective of the game is to win - regardless of methods, strategy, tactics. It all depends on the situation, you're in Masters league, so don't think of playing no rush, no attack 15 min games and let a greedy T catch up on economy.
If you're already on 3 base, there's no such thing as all-in. Mid-game is zerg's time to put the pressure on, kill if you can (especially greedy Ts), if T defends well, then its time to transition into the late game. I much rather be able to weaken the terran on Lair tech, and seal the deal with Hive, rather than trying to inch my way with broodlords and infestors.
Putting the pressure is not "all-in", if you can sniff the kill after an attack, maybe you can decide on "all-in".
Even if you don't decide to "all-in" still consider Mutas, or Burrowed Infestors, or Bane Drops, Ling run-bys you must damage his economy if you can't win or don't want to trade in an outright battle.
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| Pookie Monster United States. August 23 2012 12:25. Posts 303 | Profile # |
| I agree with ncsix the term "all in" has to be one of the most overused terms in the SC community, its like every attack before T3 is considered an all in. At worst many of these attacks simply put you behind economically IF you dont do a decent amount of damage. But there are many ways to comeback in SC2. Watch the tournys you can watch people who were "ahead" fall behind from engaging at bad angles, mishandling their army, overextending themselves, leaving expos undefended. Not keeping up with their opponents expansions etc. |
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| Crilmon United States. August 23 2012 12:43. Posts 24 | Profile # |
Something like a 8:45 roach/bane bust is considered all-in and not preferable to many because it is 100% up to your opponent making a mistake. If they play decently then you are clearly very far behind, which makes a macro opening much more attractive short of blatantly meta-gaming your opponent.
And yes, any 3+ base attack isn't all-in, just be careful of not walking into a death-trap because "it's your build order" to attack at a point, cause any attack becomes very all-in if you do 0 damage with a huge army, so yes the term is overused and should be relegated to armies that must deal damage even if they take no losses themselves. ie 6pool - if toss saves forge, and you save all your zerglings, you lose, 99.9% of the time.
Any army that has to do damage and cannot retreat and be even versus a moderately defended opponent relies on their mistakes, not your amazing play. Some people don't like that, me included. I prefer a push that if I see either no 3rd cc and a lot of units, or just 2-3 bunkers, I can retreat and be at absolute worst slightly behind, not really weak because my opponent didn't make an easily fixable and simple macro mistake that should never happen at levels that are competitive. |
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| ncsix August 23 2012 13:32. Posts 74 | Profile # |
Crilmon, I've seen a few recent pro games (can't remember who, think it was Leenock on Cloud Kingdom IEM?), where there isn't even a need for roaches, especially with Terran fast natural, just lings banes, not exactly "all-in" but does enough damage to punish Terran harshly, its sets them back pretty far economically.
It won't be as fun nor will you improve with passive play.
Another way to look at being the aggressor, is not relying on your opponent to "make mistakes", rather you finding opportunities "to exploit".
Sure, its good to know when to call an attack and when to back the hell out. This is common sense, but I find the more you spend game time looking for opportunities to exploit, the more they come to you.
Personally, l realize its gets easier to punch holes in a defense when you're actively seeking than being on defense constantly plugging holes. Both ways are legit though, and will hone your play style.
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| CreepyNA United States. August 23 2012 14:55. Posts 84 | Profile # |
On August 23 2012 13:32 ncsix wrote:
Crilmon, I've seen a few recent pro games (can't remember who, think it was Leenock on Cloud Kingdom IEM?), where there isn't even a need for roaches, especially with Terran fast natural, just lings banes, not exactly "all-in" but does enough damage to punish Terran harshly, its sets them back pretty far economically.
It won't be as fun nor will you improve with passive play.
Another way to look at being the aggressor, is not relying on your opponent to "make mistakes", rather you finding opportunities "to exploit".
Sure, its good to know when to call an attack and when to back the hell out. This is common sense, but I find the more you spend game time looking for opportunities to exploit, the more they come to you.
Personally, l realize its gets easier to punch holes in a defense when you're actively seeking than being on defense constantly plugging holes. Both ways are legit though, and will hone your play style.
It seems every time, I attempt to all in, they can scout it coming and have enough defenses. Or, I try a semi-all in "pressure", its just not enough to do any sorta of damage. And to be able to do these types of builds, I have to go away from my standard 3 hatches before gas build, or decide to stick with it. There isn't enough scouting info I can get to decide to all in or not before the time comes where I need to take gases. Terran also gets nice scouting info with the scv running around early, and later on helions and/or banshees. Not to mention they have scans. |
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| naggerNZ New Zealand. August 23 2012 15:04. Posts 700 | Profile # |
Being unable to punish greedy play without flipping a coin is the nature of playing on the ladder. When you're playing bo1s against players you generally won't have played or watched significant numbers of games against, there simply isn't any reason to do middling safe builds because that competitive metagame you see in a bo3/bo5 isn't there.
Just practice your standard/greedy macro builds, and throw in the odd all-in/pressure build. Maybe they'll play it safe and you'll lose. Maybe they'll be greedy and you'll win. Just accept that there aren't builds which are both heavy in econ yet able to punish greedy builds. It just isn't how the game works. |
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| Jebediah Germany. August 24 2012 22:18. Posts 105 | Profile # |
I don't really know why this thread derailed into a discussion about all-ins, beacuse your decision to play a macro game had nothing to do with your losses. There are a lot of things in these replays that can be improved, especially your handling of engagements. I think you could have won both games, if you just engaged properly with what you had.
The following may sound very basic, but these are the mistakes and I noticed or things that can be improved:
- More map awareness: Always take or at least try to take the watchtowers. Burrow Lings on main attack paths to spot army movements and army size. Poop creep on every expansion. Spread more OLs, your first 6-7 OLs can all be on his side of the map before you have start covering your own airspace.
- More map presence: Keep your Lings busy, see if you can force stims, pick off stray marines/tanks/whatever you can get. If he doesn't give you easy kills, stay in the area and threaten with counterattacks.
- Faster tech: If I recall correctly, you never got 3/3 in Game 1 and you Hive hadn't even started in Game 2 when your 2/2 was done. This resulted in 2.30min of idle Evo Chambers. Start your Hive as soon as your Infestation Pit is done. There is no really good reason to delay it when going Infestor/Ling.
- Faster droning/mining: Delay your static defense or your Lings. With 6 Queens in total, either Spines or Lings should be sufficient. Especially the 22 Lings around 10:00 in Game 2 could be 11 additional Drones. Expand faster to your 4th/5th, transfer Drones asap when one of your bases is oversaturated.
- Army composition/engagements: Game 2 at 14:45 your army is trickling into his army because you didn't spot the army movement and just move back to your base. Then you were incredibly Baneling heavy at some points in Game 2 and the only way to engage with pure Ling-Baneling is with a strong Ling surround. At 16:30 you are attacking into his Siegeline. Your Banelings all blow up on his Siegetank and he only loses ten marines. You had 30+ Lings and five Infestors hatching, when you were engaging. At 19:30 you should have sacced the middle to either counterattack or set up a favorable engagement.
Try to force fights the moment your upgrades finish, never go into big engagements with half your army still in production or at home.
Use burrow Infestors and Infested Terrans to catch the first siege volleys, set up big flanks/surrounds, try to catch smaller balls of bio when he mismicroes or tries to clear creep, use runbys or drop his main to divert his attention right before engaging.
I don't see any reason to change your playstyle. If you feel comfortable with defensive styles, stick to that, but never play a passive game. Runbys, Ling/Infestor drops, burrowed Infestors are strong harassment tools and are incredibly annoying.
And pick your engagements very carefully. |
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