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| Aelfric Turkey. August 24 2012 03:21. Posts 881 | Profile Blog # |
Hi guys i am a mid master player in EU server and i am seriously having problems with late game pvp. I kinda don't know what to do even though i am way ahead in games i lose because of some stupid positioning collosus battles. I kinda try to make my composition 8-9 colosus and rest zealot+archon but even though i do that or have higher supply i kinda manage to lose somehow. What did i do wrong, what can i fix?
Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/242638
Any high master players wanna help really appreciated.
There are few questions i want the focus to be on:
1) Is the composition i did in late game was right ? If not, what should have been better?
2) What is better to do in pvp if you are ahead all game long, just sit still and expand wait for him to attack or do something different?
3) What is the most useful econ/army probe count you should have in late game pvp?
4) Is 2 robo good for getting initial 8-9 colo count faster actually good? If you don't plan for any timing attacks does it actually hurt you?
5) Is it possible to add more immortalls to the army after enough collosus and still have enough gas for suitable archons and supply left for other things to tank? Would the gas be enough on 3 bases for something like this?Last edit: 2012-08-24 08:38:23 |
| | Tomorrow never comes until its too late... |
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| Aelfric Turkey. August 24 2012 04:28. Posts 881 | Profile Blog # |
| Nobody wanna help with this ? |
| | Tomorrow never comes until its too late... |
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| O INSANE O United States. August 24 2012 04:51. Posts 75 | Profile # |
Hi, top diamond protoss here :D Take it with a grain of salt.
If you are playing a passive late game, such as building up an army and just waiting for him to attack then you want to go for mothership + upgrades. Zealots late game aren't very good since colossus just melt them. You want to have stalker, immortal, archon, and colossus + mothership. Immortal and archon actually tank the colossus hits more than a zealot will. It usually comes down to positioning after that.
Late game harass with DT- warp prism or blink stalkers. OR just plain zealot run by and try to snipe something.
I hope this helps. Last edit: 2012-08-24 04:54:33 |
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| Maybe a Duck Germany. August 24 2012 04:54. Posts 51 | Profile # |
whenever you deem yourself "way ahead" add immortals and about 6 to 8 voidrays; yes its that simple.
User was warned for this post |
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| monk United States. August 24 2012 04:59. Posts 6824 | Profile Blog # |
| Perhaps more self-analysis? Are you looking for more general help or help with this specific replay? |
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| Aelfric Turkey. August 24 2012 05:10. Posts 881 | Profile Blog # |
On August 24 2012 04:59 NrGmonk wrote:
Perhaps more self-analysis? Are you looking for more general help or help with this specific replay?
I think for this replay it would be good because it would be more spesific for me to fix the problems. Most of the time in late game pvp i may lose because of some stupid bad positioning or bad decision but it happens again and again so i thought maybe i should ask somebody else, maybe they can see what i can't see to fix. |
| | Tomorrow never comes until its too late... |
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| Maybe a Duck Germany. August 24 2012 05:44. Posts 51 | Profile # |
Why am i warned for this lol? In fact i can back this up with replays and i basicaly answered the question how to guarantee a win in games your way ahead, thus i addressed his problem
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| monk United States. August 24 2012 05:51. Posts 6824 | Profile Blog # |
| Not only is your advice wrong, you didn't back it up at all in accordance with rule #1 of the strategy forum guidelines. You also did not watch the replay, a pre-req of answering a [H] thread. |
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| Aelfric Turkey. August 24 2012 06:23. Posts 881 | Profile Blog # |
On August 24 2012 04:51 O INSANE O wrote:
Hi, top diamond protoss here :D Take it with a grain of salt.
If you are playing a passive late game, such as building up an army and just waiting for him to attack then you want to go for mothership + upgrades. Zealots late game aren't very good since colossus just melt them. You want to have stalker, immortal, archon, and colossus + mothership. Immortal and archon actually tank the colossus hits more than a zealot will. It usually comes down to positioning after that.
Late game harass with DT- warp prism or blink stalkers. OR just plain zealot run by and try to snipe something.
I hope this helps.
It's not really realistic to have Stalker + Many Immortalls + Collosi composition in late game, it's super gas intensive and it won't work like that most of the time. |
| | Tomorrow never comes until its too late... |
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| act1oN Norway. August 24 2012 06:33. Posts 12 | Profile # |
On August 24 2012 04:51 O INSANE O wrote:
Hi, top diamond protoss here :D Take it with a grain of salt.
If you are playing a passive late game, such as building up an army and just waiting for him to attack then you want to go for mothership + upgrades. Zealots late game aren't very good since colossus just melt them. You want to have stalker, immortal, archon, and colossus + mothership. Immortal and archon actually tank the colossus hits more than a zealot will. It usually comes down to positioning after that.
Late game harass with DT- warp prism or blink stalkers. OR just plain zealot run by and try to snipe something.
I hope this helps.
I just want to answer to his statement about late game army composition (Master EU Protoss)
The lategame composition should be zealot archon colossus + a mothership. Stalkers don't deal damage very well in the late game, and they also clump up with the immortals and colossus so they get hit easily by the AoE. Killing enemy colossi with blink stalkers late game isn't very smart, as the enemy colossi will kill your low zealot count fast, as well as blinking into the colossi makes the stalkers clump up. This leaves your colossi completely naked.
You will always have stalkers before the big fight, so something I recommend doing is blinking four stalkers at a time into their base and start killing off probes, as four stalkers will one shot probes. Killing workers and losing stalkers is a win/win situation, because you can reinforce with zealot/archon. If you've already had a big fight and both came out around equal or whatnot, remax with pure chargelot archon colossus, don't go stalkers as they literally suck in a straight up fight.
That's at least my thoughts on the matter. |
| | "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." -Albert Einstein |
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| Maybe a Duck Germany. August 24 2012 06:44. Posts 51 | Profile # |
Gmonk its not for you to judge if its wrong or not, maybe im bound to proof it although his question was just as general as my answer
also you cant know if i watched the replay as it isnt nessecary to refer to it if he asks a generic question about late game.
(I interpreted it along the lines of "how do i avoid loosing due to positional mistakes with mass collossi when im ahead"?
Well there you gon i answered. I dont think you always have to write a novel to answer a question.Last edit: 2012-08-24 06:45:47 |
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| monk United States. August 24 2012 06:55. Posts 6824 | Profile Blog # |
On August 24 2012 06:44 Maybe a Duck wrote:
Gmonk its not for you to judge if its wrong or not, maybe im bound to proof it although his question was just as general as my answer
also you cant know if i watched the replay as it isnt nessecary to refer to it if he asks a generic question about late game.
(I interpreted it along the lines of "how do i avoid loosing due to positional mistakes with mass collossi when im ahead"?
Well there you gon i answered. I dont think you always have to write a novel to answer a question.
Actually, it is for me to judge what's right or wrong in the strategy forums. Hence the shiny red hammer and the blinding or calming? baby blue background.
When responding in the strategy section, make sure you read the strategy forum guidelines:
Rule No 1: Everything you say must be supported by evidence.
The game is evolving all the time and no one has a definite answer for every strategy related question for SC2. Thus, it is extremely important that you back up everything with sound reasoning, a replay, or a VOD, anything that supports the point you are making. Your word is not enough. A one-line response to a post without anything to support it is not acceptable.
YOU MUST WATCH REPLAYS when they are provided when responding to a thread.
Feedback on [H] Threads:- Before responding, YOU MUST WATCH THE REPLAY. Too many times, people give generic advice without watching the replay which doesn't apply at all to the specific game in question.
If you have further problems with moderation, bring it up in the website feedback forums or via PMs and don't pollute this thread.
Btw, to the OP, you need further analysis of your replay for this thread to stay open. Else, you can feel free to post in in the Protoss Help Me Thread.Last edit: 2012-08-24 06:56:48 |
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| Aelfric Turkey. August 24 2012 08:38. Posts 881 | Profile Blog # |
On August 24 2012 06:55 NrGmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 06:44 Maybe a Duck wrote:
Gmonk its not for you to judge if its wrong or not, maybe im bound to proof it although his question was just as general as my answer
also you cant know if i watched the replay as it isnt nessecary to refer to it if he asks a generic question about late game.
(I interpreted it along the lines of "how do i avoid loosing due to positional mistakes with mass collossi when im ahead"?
Well there you gon i answered. I dont think you always have to write a novel to answer a question.
Actually, it is for me to judge what's right or wrong in the strategy forums. Hence the shiny red hammer and the blinding or calming? baby blue background. When responding in the strategy section, make sure you read the strategy forum guidelines:
Show nested quote +Rule No 1: Everything you say must be supported by evidence.
The game is evolving all the time and no one has a definite answer for every strategy related question for SC2. Thus, it is extremely important that you back up everything with sound reasoning, a replay, or a VOD, anything that supports the point you are making. Your word is not enough. A one-line response to a post without anything to support it is not acceptable.
Show nested quote +Feedback on [H] Threads:- Before responding, YOU MUST WATCH THE REPLAY. Too many times, people give generic advice without watching the replay which doesn't apply at all to the specific game in question.
If you have further problems with moderation, bring it up in the website feedback forums or via PMs and don't pollute this thread. Btw, to the OP, you need further analysis of your replay for this thread to stay open. Else, you can feel free to post in in the Protoss Help Me Thread.
I added some spesific questions, i hope it's ok now. |
| | Tomorrow never comes until its too late... |
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| Maybe a Duck Germany. August 24 2012 20:51. Posts 51 | Profile # |
Ok with the more detailed Question, im gonna give a more detailed answer  :
1. Your composiotion was what you most of the time end up with in an even game. This game however you had a serious midgame lead in the collossus count. The way collossus wars work is that basicaly no player can attack before hes maxed. With you being in the lead in a DEFENSIVE fashion you need to captitalize on this with a) an expansion (might be not smart cause of question 3) or a tech transition.
2. which leads to Question 2. You identified your lead in the midgame with your immortal drops, and so he was behind in collossi. The logical consequenze of this is that its unsafe for him to transition out of collossi, but you alread had 6 collossi whith him catching up so its safe to transiotion. In my opinion, which Monk disagrees with, a composition with the maximum of 6 collossi and enough zealots so he cant overrun you with pure zealot archon+ a lot of voidrays and immortals is near the ultimate pvp late-game army (excluding the masss carrier army youll never reach).
3.double Robo is always good if you dont want to timing push cause it allows you a) to translate any lead you might have into a mid game collossus lead, which is crucial, and b) gives you the ability to rebuild collossi fast, which determines in the late gmae who can become aggressive again after an army trade.
4.I think it depends on the map. On maps like Cloud Kingdom a 3 base saturation of 66 Probes should be the absolute max, cause trades are very unforgiving and you dont have the time for rebuilding once you lost a fight. On giant maps like condemened ridge i see no problem whith about 80 probes on 4 or 5 base
5. An immortal lead is what makes you win endgame fights; yes its absolutely essential to add some immortals. I would advise you though to get a little bank and overbuild gateways to compenstae for the lack of zealots you might have
Here a replay with my end-game composition at work, otherwise im just gonna get banned^^ http://drop.sc/236627
Note that i wasnt even ahead, what allowed me to transition was only the map size, a lead like yours in the game makes it even easier |
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| Aelfric Turkey. August 25 2012 04:43. Posts 881 | Profile Blog # |
On August 24 2012 20:51 Maybe a Duck wrote:Ok with the more detailed Question, im gonna give a more detailed answer : 1. Your composiotion was what you most of the time end up with in an even game. This game however you had a serious midgame lead in the collossus count. The way collossus wars work is that basicaly no player can attack before hes maxed. With you being in the lead in a DEFENSIVE fashion you need to captitalize on this with a) an expansion (might be not smart cause of question 3) or a tech transition. 2. which leads to Question 2. You identified your lead in the midgame with your immortal drops, and so he was behind in collossi. The logical consequenze of this is that its unsafe for him to transition out of collossi, but you alread had 6 collossi whith him catching up so its safe to transiotion. In my opinion, which Monk disagrees with, a composition with the maximum of 6 collossi and enough zealots so he cant overrun you with pure zealot archon+ a lot of voidrays and immortals is near the ultimate pvp late-game army (excluding the masss carrier army youll never reach). 3.double Robo is always good if you dont want to timing push cause it allows you a) to translate any lead you might have into a mid game collossus lead, which is crucial, and b) gives you the ability to rebuild collossi fast, which determines in the late gmae who can become aggressive again after an army trade. 4.I think it depends on the map. On maps like Cloud Kingdom a 3 base saturation of 66 Probes should be the absolute max, cause trades are very unforgiving and you dont have the time for rebuilding once you lost a fight. On giant maps like condemened ridge i see no problem whith about 80 probes on 4 or 5 base 5. An immortal lead is what makes you win endgame fights; yes its absolutely essential to add some immortals. I would advise you though to get a little bank and overbuild gateways to compenstae for the lack of zealots you might have Here a replay with my end-game composition at work, otherwise im just gonna get banned^^ http://drop.sc/236627Note that i wasnt even ahead, what allowed me to transition was only the map size, a lead like yours in the game makes it even easier
Thank you for the feedback, i'll try to fix some stuff... |
| | Tomorrow never comes until its too late... |
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| Oneiros United States. August 25 2012 05:23. Posts 10 | Profile # |
Masters Protoss here. So I watched the replay, and you're right that you had a pretty huge lead, going into the late-game with 20 more workers, and i think that game should have been won.
Where you went wrong in my opinion is just the fact that you engaged when you did. You were both basically maxed during the final fight, but you had 23 more workers, a warp prism, an HT, and 2 immortals out of your army (35 supply!). Before attacking in pvp, you have to check your opponents army, either with an observer or a probe, to make sure that you can actually beat it, as well as being able to engage in a favorable spot. Also, you should never ever ever engage like that if you don't have a proxy pylon near by to warp in zealots (never try to make archons in battle btw).
What you should have done is sat back and taken another base, while still harassing his natural with your WP, and adding on gates. Unless i'm blind, you only had 13 gateways going into the final battle, you should have more like 20 with the income you had. He had the better army because he had less probes, but you can remax much quicker than he can.
About the army comp that you want, you don't want any stalkers at all, and the only immortal you should have are leftover from the early-midgame. You want more colossus than you had, more like 15, because colossus are your big damage dealers, and at one point you were 4 colossus ahead of the other guy. Ideally, you'd have a composition of nothing but archons, colossus, and a mothership; and then you'd have tons of gateways to build zealots from your proxy pylon as the fight goes on.
So basically: be more passive when you have an eco lead, build more gateways, attack with your whole army at the same time, reenforce from a proxy pylon. |
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