Website Feedback
Closed Threads
IRC Chat
irc.quakenet.org #teamliquid
IRC Web ClientTeamSpeak 3 (60 users) | |
|
| Psyonic_Reaver United States. August 24 2012 14:23. Posts 3086 | Profile Blog # |
I'm getting stomped lately by hydra only builds.
DRIL SPOILER+ Show Spoiler +And not just before I got smashed by Gao Xi 4-1 by Hydra only builds.
I've played BW long enough that I know many PvZ openings but the newer Hydra builds coming out are just dismantling me hardcore.
Once a Zerg gets speedlings, I can't keep a probe alive long enough to scout. Even if I hide a probe and try to sneak in later, most good zergs will always have 2 lings blocking the ramp/entrance. If I do a normal FE with forge, cannon, nexus, gate, cyber, starport, by the time I can get a sair out, I'm already getting hit with Hydras or the sair gets to the Zerg base just as hydras are popping out and being rallied to my natural.
Cannons build too slowly before the first wave hits. I'm not sure if the response is to go 3 more gates speedlots w/templar or to go reaver. Some timings you don't have time to even get to that point depending on how many drones the Z cuts to get Hydras. I realize that if I can hold the first wave, I can get ahead econ wise but I find it really hard to do without pulling probes for defense.
If I blindly think Zerg is going hydra and place 4-6 more cannons, A Ling or OL can easily spot the added defense and Zerg is free to expand, so I'm still behind but not dead I guess. Would it be prudent to try storm drops in that case? |
| |
|
 ArvickHero August 24 2012 14:35. Posts 9378 | Profile Blog # |
If it's 3hatch, you should be scouting the Hydra den long before Zergling Speed kicks in. If your first probe scout dies, you can always try following up by using a Zealot and a probe to help scout and potentially do some economic damage, though if he makes enough lings you should back off w/ the Zealot.
Why don't you supply a replay? |
| | http://www.youtube.com/user/whereismy5 | |
|
|
| Rwars Canada. August 24 2012 15:51. Posts 22 | Profile # |
Not too sure if this strategictly correct but I tend to push right before the den builds.
The idea is when I push, I'm forcing him to spend larva on zerglings. and speed.
Cause all zergs will match your army when you reach their natural.
Lings are pretty larva inneffiecient, so im hoping to mess up the hydras and the effectivness of the hydra upgrades by preventing possible drones/hydras from forming.
I actually never enter his natural, I just run the fuck back home.
You can probally get the timings from replays of zergs doing it at 3 hatch 4 hatch and 5 hatch
it throws a wrench in the zerg if you attack him when he is banking larva and b4 the den starts/finished.
Hope it helps
Last edit: 2012-08-24 15:54:07 |
|
|
| FyRe_DragOn Canada. August 25 2012 03:41. Posts 1403 | Profile Blog # |
you need to keep your first probe alive inside the opponents main at least until you see the lair or hydra den, preferably until lair is done. If you fuck up and it dies earlier than that, send another one asaply before he gets lings to your natural and hover around his natural. He can block his ramp, but you can see what he makes with the larvae at his natural, and when he moves out with hydras, which will give you enough time to build more cannons. If this is too apm intensive, you can also hide it somewhere and then move to the opponents natural when 3hatch hydra would normally be coming out to attack you, when your first corsair is almost done.
that was assuming a regular 3hatch hydra build. If the zerg opens pool/gas and denies your scouting probe you can do the same *sneak probe in when corsair is almost done* thing, or you can just have an extra cannon at your front to prevent the speedling runby in the first place and youll be safe from the first few hydras and be able to put down more in time without needing extra scouting before corsair - with 3hatch hydra after speed first. What you need to do vs speed first openings is make sure you know whether hes following up 2hatch (keeps drones on gas, or puts them back on shortly) or 3hatch (drones should be off gas still when speed kicks in and he kills your probe) by keeping your probe alive in his base until his speed is done. Again, against 2hatch hydra if you built an extra cannon to fend off a ling runby, the same cannon will prevent you from dying to his hydra followup.
Another trick almost all progamers use to prevent themselves from dying to 3hatch hydra, in the event that their probe gets denied, is to build their cannons 1 space back from the gateway/forge wall, so that rangeless (and therefore speed upgraded) hydras cant reach them, and will be forced to kill the gateway or forge before busting. This means that if you dont scout until corsair and you have a good wall with cannons placed farther back, the zerg wont be able to kill you immediately. If he went range first his hydras will be slow to get to your base so you should have time to make extra cannons, and if he went speed first the hydras at your base wont be able to kill you immediately so you should have time to make extra cannons.
After you succeed in not dying to the first wave of hydras and have a few extra cannons, the followup is to immediately get a templar with storm. Yes i said a templar, not templars. Money is tight here, so you will only have enough to throw down the templar archive and 1gateway at this point, unless you see the zerg droning already. Put up more cannons if hes not droning, more gateways if he is droning. You can also go reaver, which comes out faster but is more mineral expensive.
Speedzlots are not a good choice in the long run. In order for them to be effective enough to repel the hydras, you need to not go stargate, and therefore not have scouting. Then the zerg can drone minimally and force you back into your natural with hydras, leaving you blind and possibly dead, because you wont be able to react properly to his next tech choice.
|
| |
|
| Psyonic_Reaver United States. August 25 2012 15:41. Posts 3086 | Profile Blog # |
| Thank for all the advice! Really great stuff. I will do my best to keep that probe alive longer. Thank you again! |
| |
|
| AttackZerg United States. August 27 2012 15:44. Posts 6322 | Profile Blog # |
None of the advise written here is very high quality.
Each of the longer posts has grains of bad advice - beware.
speedlot/templar is very strong.
I am a pure hydra cheese player, the guys that beat me keep producing, simple as that, they keep fighting for well placed storms, they keep their sairs harassing, they try and sneak out dts with diversions. They look for ways to keep me producing hydras and not droning, teching, upgrading, expo, ect....
Use the search function - there are no new zvp hydra builds, zero, there are just more cheesy-unsound players now then there were a year ago.
Go to liquidpedia |
| | Please read my first published essay! - http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/dont-hate-us/content?oid=4618023 - Please read! |
|
|
| renzy Canada. August 28 2012 02:28. Posts 743 | Profile # |
On August 27 2012 15:44 AttackZerg wrote:
None of the advise written here is very high quality.
Each of the longer posts has grains of bad advice - beware.
speedlot/templar is very strong.
I am a pure hydra cheese player, the guys that beat me keep producing, simple as that, they keep fighting for well placed storms, they keep their sairs harassing, they try and sneak out dts with diversions. They look for ways to keep me producing hydras and not droning, teching, upgrading, expo, ect....
Use the search function - there are no new zvp hydra builds, zero, there are just more cheesy-unsound players now then there were a year ago.
Go to liquidpedia
I think Dragon's advice is quite good. Zealot/templar is not too great against mass hydras. Templars are easily sniped by hydras because zealots doesnt have storm. The zerg can always pull back their hydra out of the high templar's range and attack the zealots before HTs move much slower than zealots. It doesn't work against any competent player. |
| |
|
| AttackZerg United States. August 28 2012 15:57. Posts 6322 | Profile Blog # |
Wrong renzy. Wrong.
He is talking about a - 3 hat with hydra all-in/hyper risk build.
The first phase is speed zlots and templar 90-95% of the time, any competent player would know that.
Thank you for explaining to me how to micro - hydra vs zlot-temp - after 12 years of starcraft and a maintained b- ranking for I think 3-4 years, I feel that when I say "Beware the posts have GRAINS of bad advice" I wasn't insulting.
Dragons advice actually states "if you go speed zealot you skip sair", while that may matter vs a 2hat hydra build, it is never a mutually exclusive or even suggested exclusive to skip a stargate vs a 3-5 hat hydra build, and the op makes specific mention that he isn't referring to a 2 hat build. He was asking about situations that arise as his sair reaches the zergs main to see hydras are hatching or when they hit his wall as the sair leaves.
Being informed about what works against someone competent by someone who feels the need to include the knowledge "because zealots doesn't have storm" in a post is insulting.
|
| | Please read my first published essay! - http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/dont-hate-us/content?oid=4618023 - Please read! |
|
|
| Gulfstream United States. August 28 2012 22:30. Posts 38 | Profile # |
| How often are you practicing vs zerg? Like, how many games a day on average? |
| | A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. |
|
|
| Piste Finland. August 29 2012 02:04. Posts 4708 | Profile Blog # |
Fyre_dragon never said that zealot/templar is not good vs hydras. of course it is good vs hydras, in the beginning, before you start adding any dragoons.
fyre_dragon's advice isn't wrong in any aspect. |
| |
|
| renzy Canada. August 29 2012 02:12. Posts 743 | Profile # |
On August 28 2012 15:57 AttackZerg wrote:
Wrong renzy. Wrong.
He is talking about a - 3 hat with hydra all-in/hyper risk build.
The first phase is speed zlots and templar 90-95% of the time, any competent player would know that.
Thank you for explaining to me how to micro - hydra vs zlot-temp - after 12 years of starcraft and a maintained b- ranking for I think 3-4 years, I feel that when I say "Beware the posts have GRAINS of bad advice" I wasn't insulting.
Dragons advice actually states "if you go speed zealot you skip sair", while that may matter vs a 2hat hydra build, it is never a mutually exclusive or even suggested exclusive to skip a stargate vs a 3-5 hat hydra build, and the op makes specific mention that he isn't referring to a 2 hat build. He was asking about situations that arise as his sair reaches the zergs main to see hydras are hatching or when they hit his wall as the sair leaves.
Being informed about what works against someone competent by someone who feels the need to include the knowledge "because zealots doesn't have storm" in a post is insulting.
Before I continue with a post, let me tell you that I am also a B- player, and I don't rely on cheese to get to high ranks unlike you.
There is a timing to punish a 3 hatch hydra build with +1 zealots from 5 gates if you scout that the zerg is droning up, but at his level, I don't think he can get the timing to push out properly, and I don't think he has enough multitask to see what comes out of your larva. There is also timing to push out with zealot dragoon templars (I've seen several vods of progamers do this), and I feel this response should be alot easier for him to manage than a +1 zealot counter to cripple the zerg.
Dragon's post actually says "speedlots arent effective against hydras in the long run to repel hydras, unless you skip stargate". When your sair reaches to scout a 3 hatch hydra, speedlots are horrible to deal with mass hydras and storms are needed ASAP unless you can scout the zerg droning. I see nothing wrong with this.
Edit: in my previous post, I meant to say range, not storm. == That's why templars are easily sniped when going zealot compared to dragoons.Last edit: 2012-08-29 02:14:31 |
| |
|
| brolaf August 31 2012 23:56. Posts 219 | Profile # |
On August 29 2012 02:12 renzy wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 15:57 AttackZerg wrote:
Wrong renzy. Wrong.
He is talking about a - 3 hat with hydra all-in/hyper risk build.
The first phase is speed zlots and templar 90-95% of the time, any competent player would know that.
Thank you for explaining to me how to micro - hydra vs zlot-temp - after 12 years of starcraft and a maintained b- ranking for I think 3-4 years, I feel that when I say "Beware the posts have GRAINS of bad advice" I wasn't insulting.
Dragons advice actually states "if you go speed zealot you skip sair", while that may matter vs a 2hat hydra build, it is never a mutually exclusive or even suggested exclusive to skip a stargate vs a 3-5 hat hydra build, and the op makes specific mention that he isn't referring to a 2 hat build. He was asking about situations that arise as his sair reaches the zergs main to see hydras are hatching or when they hit his wall as the sair leaves.
Being informed about what works against someone competent by someone who feels the need to include the knowledge "because zealots doesn't have storm" in a post is insulting.
Before I continue with a post, let me tell you that I am also a B- player, and I don't rely on cheese to get to high ranks unlike you. There is a timing to punish a 3 hatch hydra build with +1 zealots from 5 gates if you scout that the zerg is droning up, but at his level, I don't think he can get the timing to push out properly, and I don't think he has enough multitask to see what comes out of your larva. There is also timing to push out with zealot dragoon templars (I've seen several vods of progamers do this), and I feel this response should be alot easier for him to manage than a +1 zealot counter to cripple the zerg. Dragon's post actually says "speedlots arent effective against hydras in the long run to repel hydras, unless you skip stargate". When your sair reaches to scout a 3 hatch hydra, speedlots are horrible to deal with mass hydras and storms are needed ASAP unless you can scout the zerg droning. I see nothing wrong with this. Edit: in my previous post, I meant to say range, not storm. == That's why templars are easily sniped when going zealot compared to dragoons.
That timing is against the "classic" 2 gas hydra build. But against the one pros have been using for the past couple of years, it is too slow. When pros go with the low econ 1 gas hydras+lings, cannons is the only answer. Cannons, or no scout and die |
|
|
| | |
|
|
|
| |
|
Sidebar Settings...
|
Store
