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| Lazzi Switzerland. August 26 2012 01:12. Posts 1117 | Profile # |
Hi,
I'm a master protoss player and I've just faced a Zerg on ohana. During this game he went 10 pool, which didn't make any domages. After that I go for my standard 3 base play.
Around 11 minutes I see with a scouting probe that he's taking a 4th, and around 12-13 that he already has a hive so I decide to attack his 4th. I got there and get crushed by his army already with broodlords..
Here's my question: what could have done better? I know that my army was poorly controlled in the fight but even...
the replay
Thanks in advance |
| | "If I don’t have confidence in myself, then no one else will either, so I have to at least, even if I do suck – which I hope I don’t – I have to believe that I'm good at least" Naniwa |
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| Swagtacular United States. August 26 2012 02:03. Posts 98 | Profile # |
So, here is what i think:
1. Although you did hold the 10 pool, you didnt reapply any pressure. The zerg just builds back up an economy, being extra greedy. (I would've chrono 2 zealots and a stalker to pressure him, see what he is doing, and maybe pick off a queen or overlord).
2. I think your robo is too late to give you any options in your build. Because it is late, you don't have an observer and cant scout.
3. If you were to scout, you would see that he has nothing, so you could just go kill him (10 minutes - delay 3rd; add 3-4 gates).
4. At 10 minutes are you down 20+ workers and he has both hive and double ups going, WAY too greedy for him.
So in general, he opens high pressure, but then completely flips and goes the greedies build there is. By not attacking, you allow him to get everything he wants, and by the time you do move out, his tech is all done. |
| | Swagtacular.611 - Message me anytime for practice games and stuff |
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| etherealfall Australia. August 26 2012 02:07. Posts 391 | Profile # |
Master toss here.
It's always hard to play in the dark, which leaves a lot of your play up to luck or let them get lucky. Your first mistake I feel is getting 8 sentries. I normally wouldn't get that many. 5 tops unless I'm pressured. The reason is two fold - you're SUPER safe and SUPER immobile and thus unable to punish him once you see that he's SUPER greedy - which he is. Secondly, it delays the tech you need to punish him before he has broodlords. Normally I would be PUSHING out with 2 colossus and range at 13:30, in your game, you've just started your colossus. I'm not too sure if that's how you normally open (10ish third) but really, that's way too late. A stargate third gets it at 10:30. A robo third should be 8:30, if not earlier. It depends on how safe you feel really. Maybe you felt pressured that he was going to all in you, but taking it at 10ish + spending so much gas on sentries capped you in both economy and tech. The only thing you are ahead in is army value and that's immobile as fwark since you warped in sentries. So really, you're behind in every way.
I stopped watching after seeing that because even with blink, his composition beats yours.To have a zerg go super fast hive like that unpunished is like a terran letting a protoss take his third while going double forge and NR 20mins. There was a point when he took his fourth and you were establishing your third that you could have seen what he had (essentially nothing). Up to about 11 minutes you were completely blind on what he had. If he had opened mutas you would have been in a world of hurt as well.
TL:DR; Don't commit too heavily into one particular thing (in this case, ground defense) blindly, and secondly, don't play blind.Last edit: 2012-08-26 02:10:56 |
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| KingLumps August 26 2012 02:11. Posts 71 | Profile # |
| When zergs early pool they really only have 2 options afterwards. They can either follow it up with more lings and maybe banes/roaches, or they can try and play really really greedy. If they play any other way you win since you are ahead at this point. Once you can tell they aren't going all in you can play normal but you have to at least poke around to scare the zerg into not playing as greedy. The only possible way zerg could have BLs that early after a failed 10p is if you allow him to make nothing but drones, you have to at least pressure, and a lot of time you can do more than that, you could easily have killed him with any decent timing attack. |
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| Aelfric Turkey. August 26 2012 02:12. Posts 880 | Profile Blog # |
1- Do not ever let zerg drone up easily if you don't have some kind of "timing" or tactical plan in your head. Arround 5-6 mins even if his 10 pool failed he is getting back economy way faster than you because all he is making is drones. You have to push like 1 zea + 1 stalker to force him investing more into zerglings. With your play @ 9 mins his economy would overrun you so easily.
2- You take fas gas but do not utilize it into your build as soon as possible. Do not take 3rd and 4th gas that fast if you are not gonna use it. Minerals are more important for making buildings.
3- If you are not gonna be agressive early on, you have to take your third way earlier and force him to attack you and defence with your high sentry count + immortals. You can even expand @ 7:30 or 8 mins with fast robo.
4- Do not ever play way too standart against zerg. Zergs figured out that kind of play style and you won't be able to race with zerg's economy with that play really. You have to plan some timing pushes, stargate play or warp prism play or something like that in curicial timings. Do not ever let the zerg do what he wants like that.
5- SCOUT!!!! You don't even know what he is doing in that game. If he gone like fast muta you are way too dead. If you are gonna make that many sentries get hallu upgrade and throw fake phoenixes all over the place. Knowing what Zerg doing is very very important.
6- Learn new builds against zerg. There are many PvZ guides in TL that would help you to be more agressive early on. Check them out.
7- Scout all the time as much as you can. If you see fast hive like this, make a push with blink stalker + immortalls force him to reinforce with more roaches and zerglings, do not let him tech like that. If available while attacking try to snipe his upgrading spire with warp prism that will help you a lot.
Overall, you played way too simple in that game. You can't win against a decent zerg that knows what he is doing like that. Do not let him, even if you don't attack have some timings or plans to do in your head at spesific situations. Otherwise you are doomed vs that kind of econ zerg. |
| | Tomorrow never comes until its too late... |
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| etherealfall Australia. August 26 2012 02:12. Posts 391 | Profile # |
| lol Swag, we said the same thing. Hi5. Last edit: 2012-08-26 02:13:14 |
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| Lazzi Switzerland. August 26 2012 02:40. Posts 1117 | Profile # |
| Ok thanks all of you, I find your comments very useful. |
| | "If I don’t have confidence in myself, then no one else will either, so I have to at least, even if I do suck – which I hope I don’t – I have to believe that I'm good at least" Naniwa |
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| Raggamuffinoo United Kingdom. August 26 2012 02:52. Posts 115 | Profile # |
Here are some points I will make
+ Show Spoiler +- 6:25: Your first sentry pops out and starts working down the rocks to your third, this shows your intention to play defensive and expand.
- 6:40: Zerg sees your double gas at your natural, makes nothing but drones with his first 6 lings as his only army.
- 8:45: Your +1 and warpgate finish, you have an erroneous pylon building in your main (100 minerals). You have 4 sentry built while warpgate was researching.
- 9:00: You warp in 4 sentry. These should have been zealots, your already delayed tech (9 minute warpgate) is further delayed. With your +1 advantage you should push out with a zealot or two to take a tower, the other zealots will speed up the destruction of the rocks to your third.
- 9:30: Zerg has 72 drones and still only the 6 original lings he made, if you had pushed to the tower or his potential 4th with your +1 zealots and a few sentry his drone count would be staying at 60 while you probe up your third and add production.
- 9:40: Your warp in 2 more sentry, total 10. Your tech is severely delayed aswell as your third.
- 10 minutes: Zerg has 76 drones and a fourth base on the way with only 5 lings on the map.
- You have 53 probes, a third about to start, 1 zealot 1 stalker 10 sentry. Your only tech is blink/+2 started and you have no detection or method of scouting.
- 14:45: You push up his ramp with a colossus and 20 stalkers, thermal lance is not complete, nor is +3. You could have afforded all this earlier and had 20+ more army supply.
With your build, you could have added extra gates before your third and pushed at 9:00 with hallucination and +2 researching instead of blink.
[9:00]This was the only time that felt right for you to move out. You and zerg were relatively close incomewise and you had +1 zealots vs 6 zerglings.
If you really feel comfortable with 10 sentry you might want to invest in hallucination. Using Pheonix for scouting, immortals vs spine crawlers and colossus to bm your opponent is well worth it when you have potential of 40 forcefields.
Summary:
You overmade sentry early, zerg did nothing but drone and tech for 10 minutes. Your tech was so delayed, your push was late and without critical upgrades.
You really need to invest in a scouting method before zerg can have lair tech established, I consider 9 minutes a good benchmark. You would have seen 60 drones with 3 queens 6 lings and been able to respond in time for it to matter.
Your build was weakened severely by how long it took you to take a third, zealots work down rocks in no time and you have gas for all sorts of tricks like faster robo.
Think about the building placement for the strategy you are playing on each map. You can place the cannon at your wall in range of the rocks to really get your third down faster and optimise your strategy.
Expanding/defending: if you are going to be defending, make the most out of it and expand/tech aggressively. |
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| BuddhaMonk Canada. August 26 2012 04:07. Posts 672 | Profile # |
In my opinion I think the biggest reason for your loss was the poor engagement at the 4th.
A maxed colossus stalker army with +3 and 15 gateways to back it up is incredibly powerful.
You attacked at 140 supply before you even had 1 colossi and the first one that joined half way through the battle was ineffective.
If you had waited until you had 3 collosus, +3 attack and more gateways you would have had a good chance of winning if you spread your units and micro correctly.
He had no roaches, only a few broods and a bunch of infestors. If you're going to push out at 140 before collosus, it should be with the goal of wasting infestor energy and picking off free units. If you had sit at the bottom of his 4th ramp and FF units that would be fine, but you can't commit until you're maxed.
If you max out, 3 collosus will fry so many lings/broodlings you just have to spread your stalkers a lot against the infestors, if you had done that you would have had a good chance.Last edit: 2012-08-26 04:08:51 |
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| ApocAlypsE007 Israel. August 28 2012 03:02. Posts 775 | Profile # |
Watched the replay, here are some of my thoughts:
The main problem in this game is that you are too "polite". The game plan around the 3rd should be one of the 3:
1. 2 base all-in him. Sentry-Immortal is the go-to all-in for me.
2. Take earlier (~7:00-8:00) 3rd and use the economy to hit the Zerg harder and/or earlier.
3. Take a 3rd at the time you took while doing some kind of timing/harras (4gate +1, Phoenix play)
What you did is to play too safe with too many sentries too early (results of too early gasses?) and took the 3rd at a time that lets the Zerg just get ahead economically and roll you over. Also, after the early scout that saw the 3rd of the Zerg you never scouted until you attacked and played pretty much in the dark. Build few Zealots and attack, or build a Warp Prism and force him to show his army and to slow him down.
I think you pretty much wrongly assumed he's gone for roaches so you attack without any AOE, and get stomped by mass Ling Infestor Broodlord, You should have waited more patiently to 3+ colossi, more gates and +3 attack ready before heading into battle. |
| | I'm playing the game, the one that will take me to my end, i'm waiting for the rain, TO WASH-- WHO I AM!!! |
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| Nihonjin August 28 2012 03:30. Posts 66 | Profile # |
| Should close this thread. All answers have been answered and people are reilliterating |
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| StaraCroft Austria. August 28 2012 08:01. Posts 165 | Profile # |
Maybe one small tip: If you wall with a pylon on the side of the rocks on Onaha and a cannon behind it, the cannon covers all your buildings and can shoot the rocks, allowing you to take your 3rd much quicker if you decide to.
I think your choice to go blink before robo calls for an explanation, and if you do delay your robo this much I think you should go for hallucination. |
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