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| Teoita Italy. August 29 2012 04:22. Posts 4251 | Profile Blog # |
Hello TL! I am a 1k Master Protoss on EU, and this is my first guide. It features the 2base Templar build used by Startale Protoss players, i hope you enjoy it as i personally think it's a much more fun playstyle than colossus-based builds.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QkQfQ.jpg)
This is basically your gameplan. Except the bad macro.
Build Overview:
The goal of this build is to take a third as safely as possible off a fast Templar opening, while getting good upgrades and having good scouting information on the Terran to be able to react to any possible opening they might throw at you. To do this, Startale Protoss players open with a very safe 3Gate+Robo early/midgame infrastrucutre after fast expanding, and then use map the map control of early stalkers and observers to cut units while ramping up your infrastructure as much as they can afford to. Once your extra production and tech kicks in, take a third safely and play the macro game.
The key difference between this build and many other 2base templar openings is how much more safely Startale players open. Many other templar builds try to get storm up in time for a 10 minute medivac timing (like this build), leaving the Protoss player a little more vulnerable to pre-10 minute attacks like a dedicated stim push. With a fast templar build, you can get only two of the following:
-Fast upgrades
-Early observers
-Fast storm
This build focuses on the observers for scouting, safety and positioning, and on fast upgrades; this forces you to delay storm and charge for a bit, which means your way to hold any medivac pressure is with archons, good forcefields, slow zealots and well placed stalkers in the main.
The other interesting adjustement Startale players use is their production set-up.
The standard for PvT builds has always been going 3 gates->tech->6gates, while Startale players generally go 3-5-7.
The idea of 3-6 is, simply, you get your extra 3 gates of production around 8.30-8.40 ish to time up your production with a Terran's medivac timing; really straightforward; this production "setup" of 6gate robo+whatever tech has long been the standard in PvT.
The Startale variation gets gates 4-5 sooner and 6-7 later than a more standard build. What this does is it allows you to cut gates 6-7 and focus on units if your obs sees a potential push coming, and to have a bit more production later on if the extra gates aren't needed to defend a more standard medivac timing.
A really good example of this reaction is Squirtle's game on Cloud Kingdwom vs MVP in their GSL finals (VOD at the end of the guide): Squirtle sees the marine/tank timing moving out, and immediately cuts tech, gets immortals, and most importantly has 5 gates worth of production instead of just 3. This allows him to be completely safe against the attack, and he forces MVP back.
Also, having 7 gates is nice if you are forced to turtle up on 2 bases a bit longer by drops or annoying factories. If you only have 6 gates worth of zealot archon you risk floating a bit of money eventually and you may be forced into adding two more gates before taking your third, which can be annoying and not very smooth.
Early game:
I am going to assume both players fast expand in some way, without aggression. You get your tech and upgrades quite fast with this build, which can be extremely dangerous if not outright suicidal against a 1basing terran. If you see something that is not a cc first, 1rax fe, 1rax reactor expand, marauder expand or reaper expand do not go for this build. At the same time, you aren't looking to put any pressure on early game, your opening should be some 1gate fe variation or nexus first into a safe and passive 3gate robo.
Midgame build, holding off the medivac timing:
Most PvT games will feature the Terran putting pressure with their first two medivacs, and every macro PvT build has to account for that possiblity. This build is tailored specifically for it.
You can start teching up as your robo is about to halfway done. Use stalkers and probes to make sure no push is coming your way; if the Terran is being passive feel free to cut a few units early on to get your production and tech up, otherwise get 1-2 rounds of gateway units to hold stuff like 4-5rax marine or early stim timings. The rough timings that Parting hits with the build when playing greedy so are:
6.00: Robo, make 3 observers as it finishes
6.30: Forge, third gas, start +1 armor as soon as it finishes.
7.00: Fourth gas.
7.40: Twilight Council
8.00: Gates 4-5
@100% Twilight Council when you can afford it (8.40ish): Templar archives, 2 templar for an archon when archives finish
9.00: Gates 6-7
This way, you will have a production spike around the 10-11 minute mark, right when a Terran's first medivac poke would hit you. You want about 6 stalkers in your main to defend drops (6 stalkers will 2-shot a medivac), 3 sentries from early game, 1-2 archons and as many zealots as you can afford; 10 is a good number to aim for; if you want to maximize your production, cut probes when you see the Terran moving out and start again when you push him back.
A nice trick Parting uses in the replay included is to keep his 3rd and 4th hts unmorphed to feedback two medivacs, then merging them into an archon.
Because you already have plenty of observers and stalkers in positions, dropping you should also be extremely tough.
Make sure to use your observers wisely! What i do is send my first to the Terran's main, my second to common drop locations and my third in front of my nat to see his army size and positioning. Later on in the game, having 4-5 observers on the map will be extremely useful, and really easy to do since your robo will have quite a bit of idle time.
Teching up is quite slow and safe: charge is normally started at around the 9.30- 10 minute mark together with +1 attack when +1 armor finishes, and storm isn't started until the 11-12 minute mark, while taking a third, as Terran backs out and saturates his own third. Against bio play you don't need storm much faster as at this point zealot/archon with good upgrades deals extremely well with any terran army.
Reacting to different Terran builds:
This build is extremely solid and versatile against anything a 2base Terran is throwing at you, not just medivac timings. Using your observer you can optimize your build against every Terran build out there:
- If you see some kind of 2base tech like cloak banshee, you can also play a bit greedier in terms of teching, getting faster charge and storm as the actual army of the Terran will be far smaller. You will always get a second and third observer, so deflecting cloak banshees should be easy.
Against a 2base allin like Marine/Thor/Banshee or Marine/Tank/eventual Banshees, you want to add a few immortals to your mix. Against a pure Marine/Tank timing, chronoboost out 2-3 immortals and units off 5 gateways; as usual, you want to cut a few probes when you see the Terran moving out to maximize the units you have and crush his attack.
- If the terran is going for a faster 3rd cc and/or double eng bay, you need to play greedier in response. I don't have any Startale games against a fast Terran third to look at, but at best you can get your own third before your 6th and 7th gate, anything before that would have to be done blindly as your observer will most likely not scout it in time if you don't open 1gate into Robo. Since you are not getting a fast storm and you invest in a robo just for several observers, while also delaying charge, you do not have a timing to punish it. If anyone has a better reaction/suggestion, feel free to let me know.
- Against a more aggressive stim timing or ghost timing (really unlikely these days), your early game 3gate/robo or 5gate/robo production should give you enough units to hold if you cut probes and tech accordingly (ie, when you see him move out).
Mid/lategame transitions:
Once you have your third up and running, you are in a very confortable spot. You have a really good gateway army, lots of AoE available as your storm comes online, an idle robo and good upgrades. You should have 4-5 observers out on the map plus one templar per base with storm, which makes drop play extremely hard to pull off against you.
From here, there are two common transitions: add more gateways, perhaps a second forge and focus on gateway units, or add a support bay and a second robo and go for a colossus switch.
The pros of adding extra gates (i add 6, going up to a total of 15) is that you can move out, play aggressively and try to deny the terran's fourth. You have had an idle robo for a long time and easy access to a dt shrine, so adding warp prisms for harassment can be extremely strong. On the other hand, your maxed army will be weaker than you would with a colossus switch.
If you do go for Colossus you will end up with a much stronger maxed army, and you can potentially win the game outright if you show up with 4 Colossi and the Terran has too few Vikings. On the other hand you are basically forced to turtle up to 200/200, which can be pretty boring.
Replays and Vods:
Parting vs MKP: in this game the robo and forge are switched but other than that the builds are identical. http://drop.sc/162121
Parting vs Virus from IPL4: perfect execution of the build. http://drop.sc/166853
My own ladder replays: fairly bad games, but at least i execute reasonably well http://drop.sc/244264; http://drop.sc/244265; http://drop.sc/244266; http://drop.sc/244267
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67119 Parting vs Polt set 1, standard game
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66854/?set=13&lang= Parting vs Jjakji, set 1. Shows how to play out the game if your third gets delayd by a Terran's pressure.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67132/?set=4&lang= Squirtle vs Mvp set 4, showing the reaction to a fast tank opening
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67561/?set=2&lang= Ace vs Taeja set 2, Ace plays a bit greedier as he's on Entombed Valley.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67128/?set=2&lang= Hero vs Supernova set 2; the build is a bit different but this game shows how to react to a 4rax stim timing.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67128/?set=3&lang= Hero vs Supernova set 3; great defense of 2base Marine/Thor/Banshee thanks to the power of storm.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls1/vod/67091/?set=4&lang= GSTL Finals, Set 4, Parting vs MKP.Last edit: 2012-10-30 20:27:29 |
| | Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright. |
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| FataLe New Zealand. August 29 2012 04:47. Posts 3622 | Profile # |
Just a quick question:
To get that screen shot, were you facing a potato?
haha only joking, this is awesome, i've been wanting to shake up my PvT lately. Collossus, although safe, is soooo boring to use. |
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| prOxySC2 Sweden. August 29 2012 04:48. Posts 445 | Profile # |
| Great guide!, will try it out |
| | 13 year old grandmaster protoss!@prOxySC2, ♥ , mYinsanity, FXOpen, The AllianceWongjin. GuMiho, EffOrt, sOs, Creator and InnoVation! |
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| Shikada Serbia. August 29 2012 06:14. Posts 454 | Profile # |
This reminds me of kcdc's build, this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319339
The idea is similar, although kcdc's build has different gateway timings, like getting only one more gate instead of two before robo. Thanks for this guide, I will compare these build more thoroughly once I check out all the replays you kindly provided 
HT or colossus is a choice of style, but I feel HTs aren't as easily hard countered as colossus can be with vikings, and your drop defense is definitely easier with HTs. So if you're having trouble holding the 10 minute medivac aggression with colossus, this is a very good build to try out.Last edit: 2012-08-29 13:50:26 |
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| usethis2 August 29 2012 06:23. Posts 1716 | Profile # |
| edit: nevermind. I'm an idiot Last edit: 2012-08-29 06:24:21 |
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| Teoita Italy. August 29 2012 06:54. Posts 4251 | Profile Blog # |
On August 29 2012 06:14 Shikada wrote:This reminds me kcdc's build, this one: of http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319339The idea is similar, although kcdc's build has different gateway timings, like getting only one more gate instead of two before robo. Thanks for this guide, I will compare these build more thoroughly once I check out all the replays you kindly provided HT or colossus is a choice of style, but I feel HTs aren't as easily hard countered as colossus can be with vikings, and your drop defense is definitely easier with HTs. So if you're having trouble holding the 10 minute medivac aggression with colossus, this is a very good build to try out.
This build is a bit safer and gets better scouting at the cost of slower tech essentially. Other than that yeah, kcdc's build is really good. |
| | Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright. |
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| aZealot New Zealand. August 29 2012 10:47. Posts 1390 | Profile # |
Good guide Teoita, I might give it a run when I ladder over the next few days. As a low level Protoss I usually stick to getting out my Colo asap as it is a lot safer. But Templar play is definitely a lot more fun.
Nice to see you doing a Guide, by the way. Thanks also for your help to the Brotoss in the Protoss Help Me thread. _b |
| | "Consider fully, act decisively" - Jigoro Kano |
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| Mikelius Germany. August 29 2012 14:45. Posts 498 | Profile # |
| Wait, so your forge is idle between starting +1 armor at 6:30 and 11 minutes when you start +1 attack? |
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| sc2pal Poland. August 29 2012 14:51. Posts 520 | Profile # |
| big flaw of this kind of play is lack of upgrade advantage over terran and 2reactor 1techlab medivac push is super effective vs this, if ur opponent splits well enough storm do very little damage, colossus is more reliable |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. August 29 2012 15:13. Posts 1236 | Profile # |
On August 29 2012 14:51 SMMN wrote:
big flaw of this kind of play is lack of upgrade advantage over terran and 2reactor 1techlab medivac push is super effective vs this, if ur opponent splits well enough storm do very little damage, colossus is more reliable
That's what the 7 gates and archons are for. It's designed to hold medivac pushes like that and then just kill them or transition easily. |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
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| Rimak Latvia. August 29 2012 15:24. Posts 408 | Profile # |
Great Teoita, always liked your posts.
Was looking for some build w/ storm tech.
ThanksLast edit: 2012-08-29 15:27:28 |
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| Teoita Italy. August 29 2012 17:29. Posts 4251 | Profile Blog # |
On August 29 2012 14:45 Mikelius wrote:
Wait, so your forge is idle between starting +1 armor at 6:30 and 11 minutes when you start +1 attack?
No, sorry if i worded it poorly, i edited that part now. You get +1 attack together with charge the instant +1 armor finishes at 9.30-10.00 ish, you start storm at around 11 minutes after terran backs out of his pressure.
@Fatale: i had just killed 4 full dropships with feedbacks as the supply tells you, so i think he might have been a little pissed.Last edit: 2012-08-29 17:38:05 |
| | Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright. |
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 X3GoldDot Malaysia. August 29 2012 17:49. Posts 3840 | Profile # |
| by startale protoss you surely mean parting and squirtle only right?? ace hardly uses templars....... |
| | prime/startale/[SexComaZerg, RoyalRoaderZerg, SirLifealot] ingame ID = GoodGame |
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| Teoita Italy. August 29 2012 17:55. Posts 4251 | Profile Blog # |
On August 29 2012 17:49 X3GoldDot wrote:
by startale protoss you surely mean parting and squirtle only right?? ace hardly uses templars.......
Ace also used this build, i have a vod of him in the OP. By Startale Protoss i mean, the way Startale Protoss players go 2base Templar, that simple. |
| | Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright. |
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| covetousrat August 29 2012 18:07. Posts 1183 | Profile # |
This build is very good. On the other hand, if you see Terran getting greedy, you can always switch up to Zealot Templar and bust his front off 2 base.
Another trick I like to use is get a Warp prism with 7 gates off 2 bases. When Terran start moving out around 9-10 minutes, warp in 7 zealots and wreak his main.Last edit: 2012-08-29 18:08:30 |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. August 29 2012 18:08. Posts 1236 | Profile # |
On August 29 2012 17:49 X3GoldDot wrote:
by startale protoss you surely mean parting and squirtle only right?? ace hardly uses templars.......
You're talking about the guy who was most recently using pure templar builds and storm dropping Taeja's army? |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
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| moQbara Romania. August 29 2012 18:13. Posts 74 | Profile Blog # |
I love templars before colossus because it makes defending drops so much easier. Even if I don't kill the medivacs, the drop itself is a lot easier to manage with no healing on top of it.
However, I couldn't really get my timings right so thanks for the build, I'll surely try it on ladder. |
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| Teoita Italy. August 29 2012 18:15. Posts 4251 | Profile Blog # |
On August 29 2012 18:07 covetousrat wrote:
This build is very good. On the other hand, if you see Terran getting greedy, you can always switch up to Zealot Templar and bust his front off 2 base.
Another trick I like to use is get a Warp prism with 7 gates off 2 bases. When Terran start moving out around 9-10 minutes, warp in 7 zealots and wreak his main.
As i said, i don't think you have a timing to bust a greedier terran with this specific build because you delay your storm so much and you invest in a robo that initially only for observers. If anyone has a high level game/replay with it though i'll update the op. Same with the warp prism, if you get 3 observers before anything else (which i really like) your warp prism won't cross the map in time.
If you go 1gate into robo into 3 gates or cut a couple of observers it's doable i guess, but you are capable of crushing his push while still taking a decently timed third anyway so i'd rather do that.
Overall though, warp prisms with this kind of play are really really damn good, as kcdc talked about a while ago |
| | Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright. |
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| ArcticRaven France. August 29 2012 18:21. Posts 1165 | Profile # |
Why not keep all templars unmorphed to get 4 feedbacks, then morph them into Archons ?
This is more of a curiosity question as I play zerg, but I'm interested. Isn't four feedbacks better than two ? |
| | [EatThePath] I call assassins as my faction. Please tell me we can all agree that in the version of history, Steppes of War will be Jerusalem. |
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| [KGS]Slacker Denmark. August 29 2012 18:46. Posts 75 | Profile # |
The usual Terran medivac timing pushes out with their first 2 medivacs, so 2 templar should be sufficient. It takes a while to morph an archon too, so premorphing one of them will ensure you have it's dps from get go.
Thanks for the guide, looks really well written!Last edit: 2012-08-29 18:46:57 |
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