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Hero Usage TI2 (Basically hero tiers)

Forum Index > Dota 2 General 1 2 3 4 All
 
 Nevuk   United States. August 29 2012 14:23. Posts 4183
Profile Blog # 
I just want to utilize the excellent tool of http://dota-academy.com to briefly analyze heroes and try to sort them into drafting tiers.

Stats for playoffs including winner's, loser's, and grand finals. (41 games possible. Dunno how chen has 42 picks+bans with that in mind)

Just added red lines, people can do their own math. (This can all be found at http://dota-academy.com/herolist/from/20120831/to/20120902/ and sorted differently. I just picked ban/pick ratio).
[image loading]

Overall stats. I added red lines kind of arbitrarily. 0-9, 10-29, 35-87. Much broader tiers this way.
http://dota-academy.com/tournament/58/ for this info.

[image loading]


Lion and NA make the unused hero pool go from 25 to 23. Note that morphling does not have the highest winrate in the playoffs or overall. In playoffs he is 22nd in winrate (counting even the heroes only used once who won since the sample is much smaller).
Overall he is 11th (Not counting the 100% win heroes with only one game).


Original posting using data from after group stage: + Show Spoiler +
Heroes currently not used at all :

On August 29 2012 15:06 Resent wrote:
Nyx Assassin, Warlock, Sniper, Drow Ranger, Zeus, Silencer, Phantom Lancer, Gyro, Ursa, Jakiro, Lion, Treant, Huskar, Lifestealer, Undying, Void, Spectre, Razer, Viper, Bloodseeker, Skeleton King, Clockwerk, Doom, Sven, Omniknight

I think thats all the ones missing from the dota academy chart anyway.

So this is 25 heroes that can be considered below the bottom tier. (I think we'll see some of them eventually though)
Last edit: 2012-09-08 00:30:24
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 meegrean   Thailand. August 29 2012 14:52. Posts 6013
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Interesting...

Which heroes weren't picked at all?

edit: For example, I don't see Doom Bringer picked at all, unlike in the previous International where EHOME picked him very often. I guess the new heroes changed everything.
Last edit: 2012-08-29 14:58:13
Brood War Forever!
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 Resent   Australia. August 29 2012 15:06. Posts 624
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Nyx Assassin, Warlock, Sniper, Drow Ranger, Zeus, Silencer, Phantom Lancer, Gyro, Ursa, Jakiro, Lion, Treant, Huskar, Lifestealer, Undying, Void, Spectre, Razer, Viper, Bloodseeker, Skeleton King, Clockwerk, Doom, Sven, Omniknight

I think thats all the ones missing from the dota academy chart anyway.

Removed DK - blind
Last edit: 2012-08-29 16:48:53
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 Nevuk   United States. August 29 2012 15:55. Posts 4183
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On August 29 2012 15:06 Resent wrote:
Nyx Assassin, Warlock, Sniper, Drow Ranger, Zeus, Silencer, Phantom Lancer, Gyro, Ursa, Jakiro, Lion, Treant, Huskar, Lifestealer, Undying, Void, Spectre, Razer, Viper, Bloodseeker, Skeleton King, Clockwerk, Dargon Knight, Doom, Sven, Omniknight

I think thats all the ones missing from the dota academy chart anyway.

Dragon Knight was used in 5 games. Some these heroes were staples in TI1 (Viper, Doom, Spectre) and haven't seen any use at all. I've separated out the bottom tier further - from 5-9 and 4 or less (many of which were never picked). We may see sven/jakiro/lion and probably 1-2 void or spectre games in the future.

Also on doom, teams got much better at dealing with him and he falters in the face of chen pushes and smoke ganks in addition to the armor reduction. Plus he flat out gets crushed by the common mid heroes so he can't lane there anymore.

Heroes we probably won't see again :
Disruptor, Lich, AA. 1/6 or worse and all of them have their roles better fulfilled by other heroes.

I'm adding the quote of unused heroes to the OP, if that's alright with Resent
Last edit: 2012-08-29 16:01:03
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 Kaal   Djibouti. August 29 2012 16:06. Posts 1647
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On August 29 2012 15:55 Nevuk wrote:

Show nested quote +


Dragon Knight was used in 5 games. Some these heroes were staples in TI1 (Viper, Doom, Spectre) and haven't seen any use at all. I've separated out the bottom tier further - from 5-9 and 4 or less (many of which were never picked). We may see sven/jakiro/lion and probably 1-2 void or spectre games in the future.

Also on doom, teams got much better at dealing with him and he falters in the face of chen pushes and smoke ganks in addition to the armor reduction. Plus he flat out gets crushed by the common mid heroes so he can't lane there anymore.

Heroes we probably won't see again :
Disruptor, Lich, AA. 1/6 or worse and all of them have their roles better fulfilled by other heroes.

I'm adding the quote of unused heroes to the OP, if that's alright with Resent


I don't think we'll see a doom unless we see a 3rd pick storm with SS/Lion/other heavy disable banned.

Edit:

Expect china to have pocket pugna strat.
Last edit: 2012-08-29 16:07:35
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 superstartran   United States. August 29 2012 16:07. Posts 1307
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Morph getting a ban on the first round means a hero like Lycan, Seer, Chen, Rubik, Siren, etc. slips through and plows you into the ground. He will stay where he is at in terms of bans because it's not worth it to waste a ban on him when someone like Seer can ruin your day in a much worse fashion.
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 Nevuk   United States. August 29 2012 16:11. Posts 4183
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On August 29 2012 16:07 superstartran wrote:
Morph getting a ban on the first round means a hero like Lycan, Seer, Chen, Rubik, Siren, etc. slips through and plows you into the ground. He will stay where he is at in terms of bans because it's not worth it to waste a ban on him when someone like Seer can ruin your day in a much worse fashion.

Trading chen or more reasonably invoker/np for morphling seems worth it currently. Rubick has been in more games than Morphling right now and has a higher winrate (Rubick has been banned more).

Basically I just wanted to demonstrate which heroes have the greatest effect on the drafting process - even if you never see naga, she's affecting every draft (there were three games where she was neither picked or banned and only ONE for dark seer).

edit :
I have a question for people - why is BM still being banned? She's got one of the lowest winrates but the 3rd or 4th highest banrate. Do people just dislike playing against her?
Last edit: 2012-08-29 16:16:30
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 superstartran   United States. August 29 2012 16:23. Posts 1307
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On August 29 2012 16:11 Nevuk wrote:

Show nested quote +


Trading chen or more reasonably invoker/np for morphling seems worth it currently. Rubick has been in more games than Morphling right now and has a higher winrate (Rubick has been banned more).

Basically I just wanted to demonstrate which heroes have the greatest effect on the drafting process - even if you never see naga, she's affecting every draft (there were three games where she was neither picked or banned and only ONE for dark seer).

edit :
I have a question for people - why is BM still being banned? She's got one of the lowest winrates but the 3rd or 4th highest banrate. Do people just dislike playing against her?



Trading Chen is never worth it. Chen is like godly support jungler, and if he gets Mek/Staff he can single handily win teamfights with just heals. Chuan on Chen means almost invincible team that never dies, along with extremely strong ganking/push power early on.

Rubick getting through is NEVER worth it. Hero is broken. Best support in game by far.

Invoker/Natures Prophet are not good to give up, especially to players like YYF (YYF's Furion has been rock solid) or 430/Yao (430/Yao both have sick Invokers). Banning Morph on first round means you're giving up way too good of a pick, espec if you happen to be on Radiant. That means you really just cannot afford to ban him at all on that first round. People don't understand that if you ban Morph on the first round, you're giving Chinese teams in particular a field day because now they get to actually play one of the OP heroes that normally doesn't slip through.


Broodmother is banned because she ruins a ton of "standard" based strats when ran properly, and in general is just extremely annoying to play against.
Last edit: 2012-08-29 16:25:34
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 Jisall   United States. August 29 2012 16:41. Posts 1538
Profile Blog # 
From my knowledge pudge has only been banned against Na'Vi, so it would fall under "Facing Dendi" category instead of situational.

Edit: Looks like im wrong, it shows EG banned 4 times. On a side note it also shows Na'Vi having a 91% win rate with pudge lmao.
Last edit: 2012-08-29 16:47:01
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 rabidch   Singapore. August 29 2012 16:55. Posts 8127
Profile # 

On August 29 2012 16:23 superstartran wrote:

Show nested quote +




Trading Chen is never worth it. Chen is like godly support jungler, and if he gets Mek/Staff he can single handily win teamfights with just heals. Chuan on Chen means almost invincible team that never dies, along with extremely strong ganking/push power early on.

Rubick getting through is NEVER worth it. Hero is broken. Best support in game by far.

Invoker/Natures Prophet are not good to give up, especially to players like YYF (YYF's Furion has been rock solid) or 430/Yao (430/Yao both have sick Invokers). Banning Morph on first round means you're giving up way too good of a pick, espec if you happen to be on Radiant. That means you really just cannot afford to ban him at all on that first round. People don't understand that if you ban Morph on the first round, you're giving Chinese teams in particular a field day because now they get to actually play one of the OP heroes that normally doesn't slip through.


Broodmother is banned because she ruins a ton of "standard" based strats when ran properly, and in general is just extremely annoying to play against.

(rock solid except in that EHOME game (low point was when he died to wisp tiny in lane, tped back next to his tower just to die to it again))

i agree morphling is not worth banning more than the common 1st phase ban heroes: rubick, dark seer, lycan, naga

the others invoker/furion/chen/tinker depends on a per team and lineup basis, morphling does sometimes warrant banning simply because you know the other team isnt very flexible--this doesnt apply to LGD, iG, and other highly talented teams, but theres plenty of lopsided teams in TI2 and players who for some reason are really mediocre at certain heroes (which is why they arent going to win TI2...)

this doesnt mean i dont think he should be nerfed (i think a lot of things should be nerfed or tweaked), i think the hero is too good across the board right now and its best that his survivability gets downgraded slightly
thug life.
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 igotmyown   United States. August 29 2012 17:05. Posts 2900
Profile Blog # 
Regarding win rates, it would probably mean more if a hero is used by a lot of teams (rubick). I like Artstyle and Synderen, but whatever heroes Darer and mtw are picking are going to have a very low win rate. And if they're the only ones picking them, then those heroes are going to look very bad. Some bad teams might have a strong signature hero, but they're not good enough to get the win.

I don't think it's a causation issue, given how dominant some of the chinese teams have been.

And I was hating on broodmother a couple weeks ago for underperforming relative to her high pick/ban priority, when there are much more dangerous heroes.
Old Post

 
 LuckoftheIrish   United States. August 29 2012 17:13. Posts 1767
Profile # 
I think we might see Undying at some point from EG. They had a ton of success with it last year in MYM Prime Nations - pre-EG, of course. Demon, Bulba, Universe and Fear were key members of that team. While obviously the game has changed a lot, the best pocket strategies are ones you know well that no one else has experience with.

If anyone's going to use Silencer it'll probably be aL.

Darer might bust out a Gyro strat to throw people off; they've used him before.

I'd expect Clock and Lion to be played at some point before the tournament ends, but I'd also expect fewer than three uses each.
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 igotmyown   United States. August 29 2012 17:15. Posts 2900
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On August 29 2012 16:55 rabidch wrote:

Show nested quote +


(rock solid except in that EHOME game (low point was when he died to wisp tiny in lane, tped back next to his tower just to die to it again))

i agree morphling is not worth banning more than the common 1st phase ban heroes: rubick, dark seer, lycan, naga

the others invoker/furion/chen/tinker depends on a per team and lineup basis, morphling does sometimes warrant banning simply because you know the other team isnt very flexible--this doesnt apply to LGD, iG, and other highly talented teams, but theres plenty of lopsided teams in TI2 and players who for some reason are really mediocre at certain heroes (which is why they arent going to win TI2...)

this doesnt mean i dont think he should be nerfed (i think a lot of things should be nerfed or tweaked), i think the hero is too good across the board right now and its best that his survivability gets downgraded slightly

Wasn't there a chinese game where a farmed antimage just overpowered a farmed siren? Or was it EG vs someone, this was pre tournament.
Lycan, darkseer, and rubick feel like they bring the most to the table. Chen/furion are more trouble if you combine them with something like tinker, but don't seem to help enough on their own.

I thought rubick was overrated in dota1, but it seems the biggest problem with rubick is that he can win his lane very easily, which makes the other lanes weaker, relative to what he can do in team fights. Spell steam isn't so godly in itself, but it messes up a lot of the metagame by forcing you to pick around it (no enigma, blink type heroes him make him really good, and he put the nail in the coffin of bane elemental picks (along with chen/furion always getting through now)).
How many heroes can outlane rubick? Maybe invoker 60% of the time, can't think of any other common heroes.
Last edit: 2012-08-29 17:21:25
Old Post

 
 Nevuk   United States. August 29 2012 17:37. Posts 4183
Profile Blog # 
I'm pretty certain the later rounds of the tournament will have at least somewhat different hero picks/bans just due to which teams are going to meet and play more games. (Mainly the Chinese teams meeting each other is going to result in more syllabear, outside of that I don't have very much knowledge).

I'm just not quite certain WHAT is going to be different. Any guesses from people who follow the dota 1 scene more closely?

The few matches of TI2 that I saw actually had invoker getting outlaned by Rubick. Someone said something like his nuke and stun are enough to make him an insanely good hero, the spell steal + aura are just extras (not to mention his range, good animation)
Last edit: 2012-08-29 17:40:48
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 rabidch   Singapore. August 29 2012 17:52. Posts 8127
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On August 29 2012 17:15 igotmyown wrote:

Show nested quote +


Wasn't there a chinese game where a farmed antimage just overpowered a farmed siren? Or was it EG vs someone, this was pre tournament.
Lycan, darkseer, and rubick feel like they bring the most to the table. Chen/furion are more trouble if you combine them with something like tinker, but don't seem to help enough on their own.

I thought rubick was overrated in dota1, but it seems the biggest problem with rubick is that he can win his lane very easily, which makes the other lanes weaker, relative to what he can do in team fights. Spell steam isn't so godly in itself, but it messes up a lot of the metagame by forcing you to pick around it (no enigma, blink type heroes him make him really good, and he put the nail in the coffin of bane elemental picks (along with chen/furion always getting through now)).
How many heroes can outlane rubick? Maybe invoker 60% of the time, can't think of any other common heroes.

bane elemental has been a dead pick for a long time (years basically). the most annoying thing about rubick is not his laning (which isnt even that strong now compared to 1st edition rubick) but getting around his spell steal meta as you said and his versatility as a 4, chuan has basically THE man doing it this tournament, iG doesnt need to put rubick on 430 anymore they just put chuan on him which allows iG to be more flexible with with the mid ganker. he's also a great 2 which is the more common setup you see, but its not like that lane isnt impossible to beat but rather it sets his levels and farm up for better ganks and teamfights. people have tried rubick as the side solo (3) but usually its a bet on a 1v1 laning phase

naga is very strong but she is not unbeatable, same with any of the other carries. both teams absolutely need to pick around it, and naga needs to be well disciplined in using her ultimate since a few dumb mistakes can mean a lost teamfight depending on the lineups (see tongfu vs na'vi game 2 for extreme examples). that doesnt mean shes a weak hero, however

edit:
ok im just fanboying chuan now but LGD and iG both use him as a 4
Last edit: 2012-08-29 17:58:44
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 meegrean   Thailand. August 29 2012 18:13. Posts 6013
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On August 29 2012 16:11 Nevuk wrote:

Show nested quote +


Trading chen or more reasonably invoker/np for morphling seems worth it currently. Rubick has been in more games than Morphling right now and has a higher winrate (Rubick has been banned more).

Basically I just wanted to demonstrate which heroes have the greatest effect on the drafting process - even if you never see naga, she's affecting every draft (there were three games where she was neither picked or banned and only ONE for dark seer).

edit :
I have a question for people - why is BM still being banned? She's got one of the lowest winrates but the 3rd or 4th highest banrate. Do people just dislike playing against her?

Broodmother allows a team to split push and she can take down towers really quickly when left alone by herself. The enemy team will need to invest in true sight and dedicate heroes just to take her down because of her annoying ability to push and then run away quickly with invisibility. Not to mention she can solo-kill most heroes too with enough farm. It really messes up a team's strategy when they aren't prepared to deal with Broodmother like in the second game of Orange vs EHOME.

I think the reason she has a low winrate is because she can be countered more easily than other frequently banned heroes.
Brood War Forever!
Old Post

  Prime`Rib   United States. August 29 2012 18:20. Posts 484Profile # 
Chinese team would never let another team with their caliber get Dark Seer. Pushing uphill against Dark Seer is borderline suicidal unless you have like overwhelming advantage, it is not worth giving the other team Dark Seer.
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Old Post

 
 rabidch   Singapore. August 29 2012 18:31. Posts 8127
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On August 29 2012 18:20 Prime`Rib wrote:
Chinese team would never let another team with their caliber get Dark Seer. Pushing uphill against Dark Seer is borderline suicidal unless you have like overwhelming advantage, it is not worth giving the other team Dark Seer.

tongfu, with naga siren, let na'vi have ds. then na'vi picked enigma later. you can imagine how one game losing teamfight went =P
thug life.
Old Post

 
 ItsMeDomLee   Canada. August 29 2012 18:37. Posts 2291
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On August 29 2012 14:52 meegrean wrote:
Interesting...

Which heroes weren't picked at all?

edit: For example, I don't see Doom Bringer picked at all, unlike in the previous International where EHOME picked him very often. I guess the new heroes changed everything.


Doom sucks. He has no armour and can easily be shredded by any carry.
 
Old Post

 
 Nevuk   United States. August 29 2012 19:00. Posts 4183
Profile Blog # 
I will admit the fact that Rubick is tied for 7th in the number of bans is a little baffling to me (both he and enchantress have 53 bans). (They're behind Naga (105), Lycan, DS (88 bans), Brood (66 bans), NP, Chen (57) and ahead of Tinker (50)

I mean it's baffling to me in the sense that Rubick isn't banned more. I think most people in this thread would agree that Rubick is more banworthy than brood and harder to counter. It might be explained by Rubick being a first phase pick but Brood being banned in the second phase and the rest being almost as difficult to deal with as Rubick or even more difficult.
Last edit: 2012-08-29 19:03:29
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