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| Nevuk United States. August 29 2012 14:23. Posts 4183 | Profile Blog # |
I just want to utilize the excellent tool of http://dota-academy.com to briefly analyze heroes and try to sort them into drafting tiers.
Stats for playoffs including winner's, loser's, and grand finals. (41 games possible. Dunno how chen has 42 picks+bans with that in mind)
Just added red lines, people can do their own math. (This can all be found at http://dota-academy.com/herolist/from/20120831/to/20120902/ and sorted differently. I just picked ban/pick ratio).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/evT00.png)
Overall stats. I added red lines kind of arbitrarily. 0-9, 10-29, 35-87. Much broader tiers this way. http://dota-academy.com/tournament/58/ for this info.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VmiXL.png)
Lion and NA make the unused hero pool go from 25 to 23. Note that morphling does not have the highest winrate in the playoffs or overall. In playoffs he is 22nd in winrate (counting even the heroes only used once who won since the sample is much smaller). Overall he is 11th (Not counting the 100% win heroes with only one game).
Original posting using data from after group stage: + Show Spoiler +. I've honestly not watched very many games because well, group stages, lack of time, too many games. I'll probably go back and watch highlights or recommended games. but with these stats I want to review where hero usage is standing currently and generally ask if people think these drafts/tiers will remain the same for the rest of the tournament. Remember that the Mouz vs WE qualifier bo3 is counted into these stats. These tiers are as of the end of group stage matches before the playoffs. I will update this thread in the future if I have time. If you want to skip directly to tier listing then search for T11 My source and methodology: http://dota-academy.com/tournament/58/ (If you really don't want to be spoiled scroll rapidly to the bottom). Much thanks goes to the administrators of this site (I see them post on TL occasionally), it's always fascinating. I chose to use the pick + ban statistic because it reveals the overall drafting value of the hero more than their simple ban, pick, or win% does. Just because clinkz has a 67% winrate doesn't mean much, he's only been in 6 games, nor does it tell you much to know that Veno is the most picked hero and Naga the most banned. Telling you that DS is the most picked + banned hero even over Naga may surprise some but this statistic reveals more nuanced details about drafting than the others. On the Bottom tier and what some of these stats mean : Currently there are 90 heroes in the pool. 27 heroes have been picked or banned in less than 9 games. The winrate on one of these heroes is enough for it to stand out (Puck is 7 for 7) but it's safe to say that the vast majority these heroes are not going to be factors in most games. (Clinkz also has a decent winrate of 0.63. Luna is also 3 for 3 and Mirana 2 for 3). These tiers are always going to have the most picked/banned at the top and then go in decreasing order. These 27 heroes make up the bottom tier. (There are also 25 heroes not used at all so far listed at the bottom of this post) (Consider that there have been 112 + 3 games played and each game allows for 10 bans and 10 picks, meaning 1150 bans total and 1150 picks total. The maximum number of times a hero could be banned is the same as the number of games played. Although I believe some games were forfeited). So the total number of available picks + bans is 2300. No hero can exceed 115 in value for picks + bans because a hero can't be picked multiple times in a game. So the value of any hero in the bottom group of heroes is at most 9/2300, or .0039%. Taken together they add up to 4% of total picks and bans used in the entire tournament so far. If all heroes were being picked equally they would be 30% the picks/bans, they're less than 1/7 of what would be expected. I'll list the total pick/ban % possible used on each tier after listing the value range. Most of the tiers are about 30 in range except for the very top one. ********************* Tiers (T11) From here on I'm listing from top tier to bottom tier to make it easier to see the relative value of heroes to team's minds. Every tier goes from most banned/picked to lowest. An * means that I commented about the hero or that their winrate is significantly below or above 50%. The % after the tier listing is the percentage of total bans/picks possible that were used on that tier. A tier The 101 - 114 tier (38% possible picks/bans used, 874) Dark Seer* Naga Siren* Rubick Leshrac Lycan* Chen Nature's Prophet Invoker Naga was banned 105 times and only played 7, and only won 2. Lycan was banned 97 times but had a more respectable 8/13 winrate. DS received 88 bans and went 16/26. NP has a 45% winrate and Invoker a 48% winrate. , the only heroes in this pool whose winrates were below 50% besides Naga. Rubick has an extremely high winrate for being banned so rarely (62%, same as DS and Lycan but Rubick was in 58 games. Lesh in 62 but still at 56% winrate). B Tier: Now 95-60 (28.7%, 661) Enchantress* Tidehunter Venomancer Broodmother* Morphling* Syllabear Tinker* Brewmaster This tier merits a lot of commentary : Brood has a truly pathetic winrate being 6/22 but is still one of the most banned heroes in the game at 66. Morphling has the highest winrate in this tier at 59% but one of the lowest numbers of bans at 30, suggesting that teams should probably ban him more. Tinker has only been in 19 (won 8) games but has received 50 bans. Enchantress, Tide, Veno all could be bumped to the next tier if it was lowered to include 92 games but it's just a gut call on my decision to make the A tier 100 and above. Enchantress is banned 53 times and 18/42 when actually picked (a winrate barely better than tinker). Tide sees 41 bans and 51 picks (25 wins) but Veno only 28 bans, making him one of the most picked heroes with a positive winratio (34/64). C tier (Situational) 59-31 (20.78%, 478) Enigma* Sandking Windrunner Chaos Knight Bounty Hunter* Shadow Demon* Beast Master QoP* Shadow Shaman Storm Spirit Anti-mage Enigma is played more often than Brewmaster and receives similar numbers of bans (30 vs 34), but has a lower winrate (.38 vs .50). I almost want to move Enigma up but the B tier is too crowded already. SD/QoP have winrates significantly below 50% (38% and 40%). BH has a 60% winrate, the highest of any hero picked as often as him besides Rubick and DS. D tier (Highly Situational)- 10-23 (5.9% 136) Wisp TemplarAssassin* NightStalker* Earthshaker Pudge Crystal Maiden* Tiny KotL* VS NS has a winrate of 33% and has only been banned a total of 6 times (picked 12 won 4). TA, CM, KOTL all boast 67% winrates (CM and TA have both been in 12 games, KOTL only 9). Note that even though this tier only has 9 heroes it still has been used more than all 27 of the bottom tier Bottom tier <9 picks/bans (4% of total possible picks/bans used in this tier, 101 picks/bans, 66 in top half) Clinkz Lina Puck Disruptor Lich Ancient Apparition Batrider Dragon Knight Kunkka Luna **** 4 or less Pick/ban (bottom of bottom tier, 35) Dazzle Death Prophet Juggernaut Mirana Phantom Assassin Visage Weaver Axe Outworld Destroyer Riki Alchemist Bane Pugna Shadow Fiend Slardar Spiritbreaker Witch Doctor ****** My predictions : For the Bottom Tier and D tier : Puck, and TA are being undervalued and are likely to move up tiers or at least in usage. CM may be used more often but is unlikely to change tiers as it's really rare for her to be banned. Luna, Batrider may also see more usage. For C Tier: Morphling is likely to see more bans. Shadow Demon is likely to fall further out of favor, though I do not think the same can be said of QoP (who is generally picked by players who have extensive experience with her mid and fulfills a role that's hard to replicate, unlike SD who can be replaced with a generic support). Syllabear may move up in tier once the Chinese teams begin to face each other. Enigma is likely to see less use due to his low winrate (the lowest after Broodmother and Naga for a commonly picked/banned hero). This tier is likely to be the one to see the most change given the low winrates of heroes within it and above it, and high winrates of heroes in and below it. BH is also being undervalued some. For B tier : Broodmother is being extremely over-banned, it seems that most teams have figured her out (though I admit that she may have such a low winrate due to being banned so frequently). Enchantress is likely to see slightly less play but teams will continue to use her to try to counter Chen. For A Tier: Rubick is going to start receiving bans. Naga may receive slightly less but there is a reason she has so many bans. Lycan and DS are probably going to remain roughly where they are. (All 3 of these heroes have in common the fact that they're extremely annoying to play against). Heroes currently not used at all :
On August 29 2012 15:06 Resent wrote: Nyx Assassin, Warlock, Sniper, Drow Ranger, Zeus, Silencer, Phantom Lancer, Gyro, Ursa, Jakiro, Lion, Treant, Huskar, Lifestealer, Undying, Void, Spectre, Razer, Viper, Bloodseeker, Skeleton King, Clockwerk, Doom, Sven, Omniknight
I think thats all the ones missing from the dota academy chart anyway.
So this is 25 heroes that can be considered below the bottom tier. (I think we'll see some of them eventually though)
Last edit: 2012-09-08 00:30:24 |
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| meegrean Thailand. August 29 2012 14:52. Posts 6013 | Profile # |
Interesting... Which heroes weren't picked at all? edit: For example, I don't see Doom Bringer picked at all, unlike in the previous International where EHOME picked him very often. I guess the new heroes changed everything.Last edit: 2012-08-29 14:58:13 |
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| Resent Australia. August 29 2012 15:06. Posts 624 | Profile # |
Nyx Assassin, Warlock, Sniper, Drow Ranger, Zeus, Silencer, Phantom Lancer, Gyro, Ursa, Jakiro, Lion, Treant, Huskar, Lifestealer, Undying, Void, Spectre, Razer, Viper, Bloodseeker, Skeleton King, Clockwerk, Doom, Sven, Omniknight
I think thats all the ones missing from the dota academy chart anyway.
Removed DK - blind  Last edit: 2012-08-29 16:48:53 |
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| Nevuk United States. August 29 2012 15:55. Posts 4183 | Profile Blog # |
On August 29 2012 15:06 Resent wrote: Nyx Assassin, Warlock, Sniper, Drow Ranger, Zeus, Silencer, Phantom Lancer, Gyro, Ursa, Jakiro, Lion, Treant, Huskar, Lifestealer, Undying, Void, Spectre, Razer, Viper, Bloodseeker, Skeleton King, Clockwerk, Dargon Knight, Doom, Sven, Omniknight
I think thats all the ones missing from the dota academy chart anyway.
Dragon Knight was used in 5 games. Some these heroes were staples in TI1 (Viper, Doom, Spectre) and haven't seen any use at all. I've separated out the bottom tier further - from 5-9 and 4 or less (many of which were never picked). We may see sven/jakiro/lion and probably 1-2 void or spectre games in the future.
Also on doom, teams got much better at dealing with him and he falters in the face of chen pushes and smoke ganks in addition to the armor reduction. Plus he flat out gets crushed by the common mid heroes so he can't lane there anymore.
Heroes we probably won't see again : Disruptor, Lich, AA. 1/6 or worse and all of them have their roles better fulfilled by other heroes.
I'm adding the quote of unused heroes to the OP, if that's alright with ResentLast edit: 2012-08-29 16:01:03 |
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| Kaal Djibouti. August 29 2012 16:06. Posts 1647 | Profile Blog # |
On August 29 2012 15:55 Nevuk wrote: Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 15:06 Resent wrote: Nyx Assassin, Warlock, Sniper, Drow Ranger, Zeus, Silencer, Phantom Lancer, Gyro, Ursa, Jakiro, Lion, Treant, Huskar, Lifestealer, Undying, Void, Spectre, Razer, Viper, Bloodseeker, Skeleton King, Clockwerk, Dargon Knight, Doom, Sven, Omniknight
I think thats all the ones missing from the dota academy chart anyway.
Dragon Knight was used in 5 games. Some these heroes were staples in TI1 (Viper, Doom, Spectre) and haven't seen any use at all. I've separated out the bottom tier further - from 5-9 and 4 or less (many of which were never picked). We may see sven/jakiro/lion and probably 1-2 void or spectre games in the future. Also on doom, teams got much better at dealing with him and he falters in the face of chen pushes and smoke ganks in addition to the armor reduction. Plus he flat out gets crushed by the common mid heroes so he can't lane there anymore. Heroes we probably won't see again : Disruptor, Lich, AA. 1/6 or worse and all of them have their roles better fulfilled by other heroes. I'm adding the quote of unused heroes to the OP, if that's alright with Resent
I don't think we'll see a doom unless we see a 3rd pick storm with SS/Lion/other heavy disable banned.
Edit:
Expect china to have pocket pugna strat.Last edit: 2012-08-29 16:07:35 |
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| superstartran United States. August 29 2012 16:07. Posts 1307 | Profile # |
| Morph getting a ban on the first round means a hero like Lycan, Seer, Chen, Rubik, Siren, etc. slips through and plows you into the ground. He will stay where he is at in terms of bans because it's not worth it to waste a ban on him when someone like Seer can ruin your day in a much worse fashion. |
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| Nevuk United States. August 29 2012 16:11. Posts 4183 | Profile Blog # |
On August 29 2012 16:07 superstartran wrote: Morph getting a ban on the first round means a hero like Lycan, Seer, Chen, Rubik, Siren, etc. slips through and plows you into the ground. He will stay where he is at in terms of bans because it's not worth it to waste a ban on him when someone like Seer can ruin your day in a much worse fashion.
Trading chen or more reasonably invoker/np for morphling seems worth it currently. Rubick has been in more games than Morphling right now and has a higher winrate (Rubick has been banned more).
Basically I just wanted to demonstrate which heroes have the greatest effect on the drafting process - even if you never see naga, she's affecting every draft (there were three games where she was neither picked or banned and only ONE for dark seer).
edit : I have a question for people - why is BM still being banned? She's got one of the lowest winrates but the 3rd or 4th highest banrate. Do people just dislike playing against her?Last edit: 2012-08-29 16:16:30 |
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| superstartran United States. August 29 2012 16:23. Posts 1307 | Profile # |
On August 29 2012 16:11 Nevuk wrote: Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 16:07 superstartran wrote: Morph getting a ban on the first round means a hero like Lycan, Seer, Chen, Rubik, Siren, etc. slips through and plows you into the ground. He will stay where he is at in terms of bans because it's not worth it to waste a ban on him when someone like Seer can ruin your day in a much worse fashion.
Trading chen or more reasonably invoker/np for morphling seems worth it currently. Rubick has been in more games than Morphling right now and has a higher winrate (Rubick has been banned more). Basically I just wanted to demonstrate which heroes have the greatest effect on the drafting process - even if you never see naga, she's affecting every draft (there were three games where she was neither picked or banned and only ONE for dark seer). edit : I have a question for people - why is BM still being banned? She's got one of the lowest winrates but the 3rd or 4th highest banrate. Do people just dislike playing against her?
Trading Chen is never worth it. Chen is like godly support jungler, and if he gets Mek/Staff he can single handily win teamfights with just heals. Chuan on Chen means almost invincible team that never dies, along with extremely strong ganking/push power early on.
Rubick getting through is NEVER worth it. Hero is broken. Best support in game by far.
Invoker/Natures Prophet are not good to give up, especially to players like YYF (YYF's Furion has been rock solid) or 430/Yao (430/Yao both have sick Invokers). Banning Morph on first round means you're giving up way too good of a pick, espec if you happen to be on Radiant. That means you really just cannot afford to ban him at all on that first round. People don't understand that if you ban Morph on the first round, you're giving Chinese teams in particular a field day because now they get to actually play one of the OP heroes that normally doesn't slip through.
Broodmother is banned because she ruins a ton of "standard" based strats when ran properly, and in general is just extremely annoying to play against.Last edit: 2012-08-29 16:25:34 |
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| Jisall United States. August 29 2012 16:41. Posts 1538 | Profile Blog # |
From my knowledge pudge has only been banned against Na'Vi, so it would fall under "Facing Dendi" category instead of situational.
Edit: Looks like im wrong, it shows EG banned 4 times. On a side note it also shows Na'Vi having a 91% win rate with pudge lmao.Last edit: 2012-08-29 16:47:01 |
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| rabidch Singapore. August 29 2012 16:55. Posts 8127 | Profile # |
On August 29 2012 16:23 superstartran wrote: Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 16:11 Nevuk wrote: On August 29 2012 16:07 superstartran wrote: Morph getting a ban on the first round means a hero like Lycan, Seer, Chen, Rubik, Siren, etc. slips through and plows you into the ground. He will stay where he is at in terms of bans because it's not worth it to waste a ban on him when someone like Seer can ruin your day in a much worse fashion.
Trading chen or more reasonably invoker/np for morphling seems worth it currently. Rubick has been in more games than Morphling right now and has a higher winrate (Rubick has been banned more). Basically I just wanted to demonstrate which heroes have the greatest effect on the drafting process - even if you never see naga, she's affecting every draft (there were three games where she was neither picked or banned and only ONE for dark seer). edit : I have a question for people - why is BM still being banned? She's got one of the lowest winrates but the 3rd or 4th highest banrate. Do people just dislike playing against her?
Trading Chen is never worth it. Chen is like godly support jungler, and if he gets Mek/Staff he can single handily win teamfights with just heals. Chuan on Chen means almost invincible team that never dies, along with extremely strong ganking/push power early on. Rubick getting through is NEVER worth it. Hero is broken. Best support in game by far. Invoker/Natures Prophet are not good to give up, especially to players like YYF (YYF's Furion has been rock solid) or 430/Yao (430/Yao both have sick Invokers). Banning Morph on first round means you're giving up way too good of a pick, espec if you happen to be on Radiant. That means you really just cannot afford to ban him at all on that first round. People don't understand that if you ban Morph on the first round, you're giving Chinese teams in particular a field day because now they get to actually play one of the OP heroes that normally doesn't slip through. Broodmother is banned because she ruins a ton of "standard" based strats when ran properly, and in general is just extremely annoying to play against.
(rock solid except in that EHOME game (low point was when he died to wisp tiny in lane, tped back next to his tower just to die to it again))
i agree morphling is not worth banning more than the common 1st phase ban heroes: rubick, dark seer, lycan, naga
the others invoker/furion/chen/tinker depends on a per team and lineup basis, morphling does sometimes warrant banning simply because you know the other team isnt very flexible--this doesnt apply to LGD, iG, and other highly talented teams, but theres plenty of lopsided teams in TI2 and players who for some reason are really mediocre at certain heroes (which is why they arent going to win TI2...)
this doesnt mean i dont think he should be nerfed (i think a lot of things should be nerfed or tweaked), i think the hero is too good across the board right now and its best that his survivability gets downgraded slightly |
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| igotmyown United States. August 29 2012 17:05. Posts 2900 | Profile Blog # |
Regarding win rates, it would probably mean more if a hero is used by a lot of teams (rubick). I like Artstyle and Synderen, but whatever heroes Darer and mtw are picking are going to have a very low win rate. And if they're the only ones picking them, then those heroes are going to look very bad. Some bad teams might have a strong signature hero, but they're not good enough to get the win.
I don't think it's a causation issue, given how dominant some of the chinese teams have been.
And I was hating on broodmother a couple weeks ago for underperforming relative to her high pick/ban priority, when there are much more dangerous heroes. |
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| LuckoftheIrish United States. August 29 2012 17:13. Posts 1767 | Profile # |
I think we might see Undying at some point from EG. They had a ton of success with it last year in MYM Prime Nations - pre-EG, of course. Demon, Bulba, Universe and Fear were key members of that team. While obviously the game has changed a lot, the best pocket strategies are ones you know well that no one else has experience with.
If anyone's going to use Silencer it'll probably be aL.
Darer might bust out a Gyro strat to throw people off; they've used him before.
I'd expect Clock and Lion to be played at some point before the tournament ends, but I'd also expect fewer than three uses each. |
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| igotmyown United States. August 29 2012 17:15. Posts 2900 | Profile Blog # |
On August 29 2012 16:55 rabidch wrote: Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 16:23 superstartran wrote: On August 29 2012 16:11 Nevuk wrote: On August 29 2012 16:07 superstartran wrote: Morph getting a ban on the first round means a hero like Lycan, Seer, Chen, Rubik, Siren, etc. slips through and plows you into the ground. He will stay where he is at in terms of bans because it's not worth it to waste a ban on him when someone like Seer can ruin your day in a much worse fashion.
Trading chen or more reasonably invoker/np for morphling seems worth it currently. Rubick has been in more games than Morphling right now and has a higher winrate (Rubick has been banned more). Basically I just wanted to demonstrate which heroes have the greatest effect on the drafting process - even if you never see naga, she's affecting every draft (there were three games where she was neither picked or banned and only ONE for dark seer). edit : I have a question for people - why is BM still being banned? She's got one of the lowest winrates but the 3rd or 4th highest banrate. Do people just dislike playing against her?
Trading Chen is never worth it. Chen is like godly support jungler, and if he gets Mek/Staff he can single handily win teamfights with just heals. Chuan on Chen means almost invincible team that never dies, along with extremely strong ganking/push power early on. Rubick getting through is NEVER worth it. Hero is broken. Best support in game by far. Invoker/Natures Prophet are not good to give up, especially to players like YYF (YYF's Furion has been rock solid) or 430/Yao (430/Yao both have sick Invokers). Banning Morph on first round means you're giving up way too good of a pick, espec if you happen to be on Radiant. That means you really just cannot afford to ban him at all on that first round. People don't understand that if you ban Morph on the first round, you're giving Chinese teams in particular a field day because now they get to actually play one of the OP heroes that normally doesn't slip through. Broodmother is banned because she ruins a ton of "standard" based strats when ran properly, and in general is just extremely annoying to play against.
(rock solid except in that EHOME game (low point was when he died to wisp tiny in lane, tped back next to his tower just to die to it again)) i agree morphling is not worth banning more than the common 1st phase ban heroes: rubick, dark seer, lycan, naga the others invoker/furion/chen/tinker depends on a per team and lineup basis, morphling does sometimes warrant banning simply because you know the other team isnt very flexible--this doesnt apply to LGD, iG, and other highly talented teams, but theres plenty of lopsided teams in TI2 and players who for some reason are really mediocre at certain heroes (which is why they arent going to win TI2...) this doesnt mean i dont think he should be nerfed (i think a lot of things should be nerfed or tweaked), i think the hero is too good across the board right now and its best that his survivability gets downgraded slightly
Wasn't there a chinese game where a farmed antimage just overpowered a farmed siren? Or was it EG vs someone, this was pre tournament. Lycan, darkseer, and rubick feel like they bring the most to the table. Chen/furion are more trouble if you combine them with something like tinker, but don't seem to help enough on their own.
I thought rubick was overrated in dota1, but it seems the biggest problem with rubick is that he can win his lane very easily, which makes the other lanes weaker, relative to what he can do in team fights. Spell steam isn't so godly in itself, but it messes up a lot of the metagame by forcing you to pick around it (no enigma, blink type heroes him make him really good, and he put the nail in the coffin of bane elemental picks (along with chen/furion always getting through now)). How many heroes can outlane rubick? Maybe invoker 60% of the time, can't think of any other common heroes.Last edit: 2012-08-29 17:21:25 |
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| Nevuk United States. August 29 2012 17:37. Posts 4183 | Profile Blog # |
I'm pretty certain the later rounds of the tournament will have at least somewhat different hero picks/bans just due to which teams are going to meet and play more games. (Mainly the Chinese teams meeting each other is going to result in more syllabear, outside of that I don't have very much knowledge).
I'm just not quite certain WHAT is going to be different. Any guesses from people who follow the dota 1 scene more closely?
The few matches of TI2 that I saw actually had invoker getting outlaned by Rubick. Someone said something like his nuke and stun are enough to make him an insanely good hero, the spell steal + aura are just extras (not to mention his range, good animation)Last edit: 2012-08-29 17:40:48 |
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| rabidch Singapore. August 29 2012 17:52. Posts 8127 | Profile # |
On August 29 2012 17:15 igotmyown wrote: Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 16:55 rabidch wrote: On August 29 2012 16:23 superstartran wrote: On August 29 2012 16:11 Nevuk wrote: On August 29 2012 16:07 superstartran wrote: Morph getting a ban on the first round means a hero like Lycan, Seer, Chen, Rubik, Siren, etc. slips through and plows you into the ground. He will stay where he is at in terms of bans because it's not worth it to waste a ban on him when someone like Seer can ruin your day in a much worse fashion.
Trading chen or more reasonably invoker/np for morphling seems worth it currently. Rubick has been in more games than Morphling right now and has a higher winrate (Rubick has been banned more). Basically I just wanted to demonstrate which heroes have the greatest effect on the drafting process - even if you never see naga, she's affecting every draft (there were three games where she was neither picked or banned and only ONE for dark seer). edit : I have a question for people - why is BM still being banned? She's got one of the lowest winrates but the 3rd or 4th highest banrate. Do people just dislike playing against her?
Trading Chen is never worth it. Chen is like godly support jungler, and if he gets Mek/Staff he can single handily win teamfights with just heals. Chuan on Chen means almost invincible team that never dies, along with extremely strong ganking/push power early on. Rubick getting through is NEVER worth it. Hero is broken. Best support in game by far. Invoker/Natures Prophet are not good to give up, especially to players like YYF (YYF's Furion has been rock solid) or 430/Yao (430/Yao both have sick Invokers). Banning Morph on first round means you're giving up way too good of a pick, espec if you happen to be on Radiant. That means you really just cannot afford to ban him at all on that first round. People don't understand that if you ban Morph on the first round, you're giving Chinese teams in particular a field day because now they get to actually play one of the OP heroes that normally doesn't slip through. Broodmother is banned because she ruins a ton of "standard" based strats when ran properly, and in general is just extremely annoying to play against.
(rock solid except in that EHOME game (low point was when he died to wisp tiny in lane, tped back next to his tower just to die to it again)) i agree morphling is not worth banning more than the common 1st phase ban heroes: rubick, dark seer, lycan, naga the others invoker/furion/chen/tinker depends on a per team and lineup basis, morphling does sometimes warrant banning simply because you know the other team isnt very flexible--this doesnt apply to LGD, iG, and other highly talented teams, but theres plenty of lopsided teams in TI2 and players who for some reason are really mediocre at certain heroes (which is why they arent going to win TI2...) this doesnt mean i dont think he should be nerfed (i think a lot of things should be nerfed or tweaked), i think the hero is too good across the board right now and its best that his survivability gets downgraded slightly
Wasn't there a chinese game where a farmed antimage just overpowered a farmed siren? Or was it EG vs someone, this was pre tournament. Lycan, darkseer, and rubick feel like they bring the most to the table. Chen/furion are more trouble if you combine them with something like tinker, but don't seem to help enough on their own. I thought rubick was overrated in dota1, but it seems the biggest problem with rubick is that he can win his lane very easily, which makes the other lanes weaker, relative to what he can do in team fights. Spell steam isn't so godly in itself, but it messes up a lot of the metagame by forcing you to pick around it (no enigma, blink type heroes him make him really good, and he put the nail in the coffin of bane elemental picks (along with chen/furion always getting through now)). How many heroes can outlane rubick? Maybe invoker 60% of the time, can't think of any other common heroes.
bane elemental has been a dead pick for a long time (years basically). the most annoying thing about rubick is not his laning (which isnt even that strong now compared to 1st edition rubick) but getting around his spell steal meta as you said and his versatility as a 4, chuan has basically THE man doing it this tournament, iG doesnt need to put rubick on 430 anymore they just put chuan on him which allows iG to be more flexible with with the mid ganker. he's also a great 2 which is the more common setup you see, but its not like that lane isnt impossible to beat but rather it sets his levels and farm up for better ganks and teamfights. people have tried rubick as the side solo (3) but usually its a bet on a 1v1 laning phase
naga is very strong but she is not unbeatable, same with any of the other carries. both teams absolutely need to pick around it, and naga needs to be well disciplined in using her ultimate since a few dumb mistakes can mean a lost teamfight depending on the lineups (see tongfu vs na'vi game 2 for extreme examples). that doesnt mean shes a weak hero, however
edit: ok im just fanboying chuan now but LGD and iG both use him as a 4Last edit: 2012-08-29 17:58:44 |
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| meegrean Thailand. August 29 2012 18:13. Posts 6013 | Profile # |
On August 29 2012 16:11 Nevuk wrote: Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 16:07 superstartran wrote: Morph getting a ban on the first round means a hero like Lycan, Seer, Chen, Rubik, Siren, etc. slips through and plows you into the ground. He will stay where he is at in terms of bans because it's not worth it to waste a ban on him when someone like Seer can ruin your day in a much worse fashion.
Trading chen or more reasonably invoker/np for morphling seems worth it currently. Rubick has been in more games than Morphling right now and has a higher winrate (Rubick has been banned more). Basically I just wanted to demonstrate which heroes have the greatest effect on the drafting process - even if you never see naga, she's affecting every draft (there were three games where she was neither picked or banned and only ONE for dark seer). edit : I have a question for people - why is BM still being banned? She's got one of the lowest winrates but the 3rd or 4th highest banrate. Do people just dislike playing against her?
Broodmother allows a team to split push and she can take down towers really quickly when left alone by herself. The enemy team will need to invest in true sight and dedicate heroes just to take her down because of her annoying ability to push and then run away quickly with invisibility. Not to mention she can solo-kill most heroes too with enough farm. It really messes up a team's strategy when they aren't prepared to deal with Broodmother like in the second game of Orange vs EHOME. I think the reason she has a low winrate is because she can be countered more easily than other frequently banned heroes. |
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Prime`Rib United States. August 29 2012 18:20. Posts 484 | Profile # |
| Chinese team would never let another team with their caliber get Dark Seer. Pushing uphill against Dark Seer is borderline suicidal unless you have like overwhelming advantage, it is not worth giving the other team Dark Seer. |
| | ... funerals are insane, the chicks are so horny, its not even fair, its like fishing with dynamite ... |
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| rabidch Singapore. August 29 2012 18:31. Posts 8127 | Profile # |
On August 29 2012 18:20 Prime`Rib wrote: Chinese team would never let another team with their caliber get Dark Seer. Pushing uphill against Dark Seer is borderline suicidal unless you have like overwhelming advantage, it is not worth giving the other team Dark Seer.
tongfu, with naga siren, let na'vi have ds. then na'vi picked enigma later. you can imagine how one game losing teamfight went =P |
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| ItsMeDomLee Canada. August 29 2012 18:37. Posts 2291 | Profile # |
On August 29 2012 14:52 meegrean wrote: Interesting... Which heroes weren't picked at all? edit: For example, I don't see Doom Bringer picked at all, unlike in the previous International where EHOME picked him very often. I guess the new heroes changed everything.
Doom sucks. He has no armour and can easily be shredded by any carry. |
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| Nevuk United States. August 29 2012 19:00. Posts 4183 | Profile Blog # |
I will admit the fact that Rubick is tied for 7th in the number of bans is a little baffling to me (both he and enchantress have 53 bans). (They're behind Naga (105), Lycan, DS (88 bans), Brood (66 bans), NP, Chen (57) and ahead of Tinker (50)
I mean it's baffling to me in the sense that Rubick isn't banned more. I think most people in this thread would agree that Rubick is more banworthy than brood and harder to counter. It might be explained by Rubick being a first phase pick but Brood being banned in the second phase and the rest being almost as difficult to deal with as Rubick or even more difficult.Last edit: 2012-08-29 19:03:29 |
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