This topic might sound like a rant, but I honestly just want to clarify information regarding the current dota 2 metagame.
I've been playing dota for 3 years now, started in dota 1 and was pretty into the game; I haven't been paying much attention to the current dota 2 international scene since I generally prefer dota 1.
I watched tournaments since an early stage. I started watching during the early versions when axe was popular. This eventually transitioned to the solo-mid era in which SF, bat, SS and lion mid were prominent (where players such as PIS, zhou, and DAI dominated). Eventually, versions where 4 supports protecting 1 carry were preferred (well- known farmers and carries who dominated were ZSMJ, burning, and zhou at this stage). Finally, the metagame shifted towards "gank / push", when new heroes such as AA/lina/CK/SD became more popular. This is probably my favourite era, and my favourite teams, LGD, NV.cn, and Ehome dominated.
eventually, i drifted my attention towards other stuff, and newer players such as seaking (haiwang), 430 (the pianist haha) and such emerged. This era lasted relatively short, and many teams have changed their rosters. Dota 2 came out, and the roster of my favourite teams changed, and i stopped paying attention to the competitive scene.
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when dota 2 was released, there seems to be a sudden surge of na'vi fanboys, and, in particular, dendi fanboys. i always thought dendi was a good player (i think he played for MYM?), but wasn't up to par with the chinese powerhouse. i understand many people thought his pudge / windrunner aggressive play and picks were interesting, but i personally prefer the old, organized style which consisted of roaming ganks. During previous versions, perhaps dota was less popular, but i didn't know of that many people who watched and followed the competitive scene.
my question is, why na'vi, and why dendi in particular? there are many good players, some of them, in my opinion, are far better than dendi. yet from what i've read, it seems like dendi is getting so much more attention that he deserves... did i miss out on something significant he did, or are european / americans just less conscious of the pro-chinese-dota players? or have the chinese teams less dominant now? from what i know, seems like DK and LGD are still doing pretty well...
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On September 02 2012 12:31 Zyrnak wrote: I personally find it hilarious that Dendi makes people first-ban Pudge against Na'Vi. If you can be that scary with a "bad" hero, you deserve respect. That and they are a team that specializes in strange things and weird ways of playing, which is interesting to watch.
this is a common response i get from na'vi fanboys when i ask them why they love dendi so much :s
my response would be, pudge is not exactly a "bad" hero, just an undiscovered hero. if you think of previous versions, people also thought omniknight, batrider, naga siren, and tauren chieftan to be useless. rather than being useless, i would rather say they were undiscovered.
chinese teams 'discovered' many heroes. ZSMJ showed how powerful a farmed medusa could be, and YYF and 830 popularized other heroes like Tauren Chieftan and Invoker. PIS (better known as yaphets) popularized Shadow Fiend, and Merlini popularized Zeus.
Yet first banning medusa / sf / zeus in older versions, and now banning tc / invoker, does not seem to invoke as big a response from the crowd as banning pudge against dendi... if i'm playing against zhou, i would selectively ban pugna / tiny, and i would definitely ban a windrunner if i'm against a star player like YYF. Wasn't picking shadow fiend originally a "weird" way of playing as well? I don't see so much attention going to PIS, despite icefrog renaming Nevermore...
Woudn't you agree that Chinese team also specialize in interesting styles of play; they just make things work so smoothly that their trend becomes the "standard" playstyle?
I saw another thread stating that Dendi is to dota, just as MVP is to wings of liberty and boxer / flash is to brood war... that pissed me off pretty bad . Despite being a fan of Chinese teams, if I must make a decision, I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus.
Last edit: 2012-09-02 13:59:37
GeneralStan United States. September 02 2012 12:18. Posts 2889
If I remember right and got it right, the first international (which was the start of dota 2 beta) Na'vi, relatively unknown at the time, were just roflstomping everyone through the tournament, with dendi being their ace player. Since then their popularity have been as is.
"Between Tomorrow's dream and yesterday's regret, is today's opportunity"
Seiferz United States. September 02 2012 12:21. Posts 624
It's because they feel the need to cling to a team that can actually remain competitive against Chinese teams. Everyone else gets stomped so of course all the non-Chinese fans will jump onto the Na'vi bandwagon.
Add to the playstyle of Na'vi, of course Na'vi will have plenty of fans. It's more entertaining to watch someone actually push the action of the game rather than play a methodical game that is boring as shit to watch at times.
Last edit: 2012-09-02 12:25:20
writer22816 China. September 02 2012 12:27. Posts 4772
Tbh I find Navi fanboys to be a bit annoying too, but maybe that's because I'm a big fan of the Chinese teams. I guess it just bugs me when people think dota starts and ends with Navi. It seems to me like a lot of casters (like Ayesee and Tobi) are also huge Navi fanboys and aren't always successful at separating their bias from what's going on in the games.
8/4/12 never forget, never forgive.
Zyrnak United States. September 02 2012 12:31. Posts 118
I personally find it hilarious that Dendi makes people first-ban Pudge against Na'Vi. If you can be that scary with a "bad" hero, you deserve respect. That and they are a team that specializes in strange things and weird ways of playing, which is interesting to watch.
Torte de Lini Canada. September 02 2012 12:43. Posts 27084
On September 02 2012 12:31 Zyrnak wrote: I personally find it hilarious that Dendi makes people first-ban Pudge against Na'Vi. If you can be that scary with a "bad" hero, you deserve respect. That and they are a team that specializes in strange things and weird ways of playing, which is interesting to watch.
Yeah I totally agree. I think it's because they're so afraid of Pudge disrupting their 5-man methodical stick-togetherness of late game. I don't think iG or LGD have had a hero get picked off past the 20-25 minute mark in any game yet; they're that good at following a gameplan and not making mistakes. Pudge probably messes that up, and I don't think they're used to playing against him, taking them out of their comfort zone.
findingthelimit Hong Kong. September 02 2012 12:48. Posts 136
On September 02 2012 12:31 Zyrnak wrote: I personally find it hilarious that Dendi makes people first-ban Pudge against Na'Vi. If you can be that scary with a "bad" hero, you deserve respect. That and they are a team that specializes in strange things and weird ways of playing, which is interesting to watch.
this is a common response i get from na'vi fanboys when i ask them why they love dendi so much :s
my response would be, pudge is not exactly a "bad" hero, just an undiscovered hero. if you think of previous versions, people also thought omniknight, batrider, naga siren, and tauren chieftan to be useless. rather than being useless, i would rather say they were undiscovered.
chinese teams 'discovered' many heroes. ZSMJ showed how powerful a farmed medusa could be, and YYF and 830 popularized other heroes like Tauren Chieftan and Invoker. PIS (better known as yaphets) popularized Shadow Fiend, and Merlini popularized Zeus.
Yet first banning medusa / sf / zeus in older versions, and now banning tc / invoker, does not seem to invoke as big a response from the crowd as banning pudge against dendi... if i'm playing against zhou, i would selectively ban pugna / tiny, and i would definitely ban a windrunner if i'm against a star player like YYF. Wasn't picking shadow fiend originally a "weird" way of playing as well? I don't see so much attention going to PIS, despite icefrog renaming Nevermore...
Woudn't you agree that Chinese team also specialize in interesting styles of play; they just make things work so smoothly that their trend becomes the "standard" playstyle?
I saw another thread stating that Dendi is to dota, just as MVP is to wings of liberty and boxer / flash is to brood war... that pissed me off pretty bad .
On September 02 2012 12:27 writer22816 wrote: I guess it just bugs me when people think dota starts and ends with Navi.
Despite being a fan of Chinese teams, if I must make a decision, I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus.
IMO, dota starts with merlini, and ends with god knows what.
On September 02 2012 12:31 Zyrnak wrote: I personally find it hilarious that Dendi makes people first-ban Pudge against Na'Vi. If you can be that scary with a "bad" hero, you deserve respect. That and they are a team that specializes in strange things and weird ways of playing, which is interesting to watch.
this is a common response i get from na'vi fanboys when i ask them why they love dendi so much :s
my response would be, pudge is not exactly a "bad" hero, just an undiscovered hero. if you think of previous versions, people also thought omniknight, batrider, naga siren, and tauren chieftan to be useless. rather than being useless, i would rather say they were undiscovered.
chinese teams 'discovered' many heroes. ZSMJ showed how powerful a farmed medusa could be, and YYF and 830 popularized other heroes like Tauren Chieftan and Invoker. PIS (better known as yaphets) popularized Shadow Fiend, and Merlini popularized Zeus.
Yet first banning medusa / sf / zeus in older versions, and now banning tc / invoker, does not seem to invoke as big a response from the crowd as banning pudge against dendi... if i'm playing against zhou, i would selectively ban pugna / tiny, and i would definitely ban a windrunner if i'm against a star player like YYF. Wasn't picking shadow fiend originally a "weird" way of playing as well? I don't see so much attention going to PIS, despite icefrog renaming Nevermore...
Woudn't you agree that Chinese team also specialize in interesting styles of play; they just make things work so smoothly that their trend becomes the "standard" playstyle?
I saw another thread stating that Dendi is to dota, just as MVP is to wings of liberty and boxer / flash is to brood war... that pissed me off pretty bad . Despite being a fan of Chinese teams, if I must make a decision, I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus.
The thing you're overlooking is that people don't just like players because they are the best or even really good at what they do: they like them because:
1. They've heard of and seen them play. I don't think the majority of dota players are very exposed to the Chinese scene. This is by far the biggest reason. You also have the language barrier for westerners, making harder to follow Chinese websites/interviews, etc. Dendi's even made some guides where he comments on his game in English (not his first language, or even one he is particularly good at).
2. They have personality. We always see Dendi joking around, dancing, and so on.
3. He has won the biggest Dota tournament in the world, money-wise.
It's not something to get upset over. I know a lot of people who have heard of Yaphets and how good he was, but have seen maybe 1 highlight clip on youtube of him playing. It's hard to be a fan of something you didn't fully experience yourself. With Dendi, people have watched him win and lose, so they feel a lot more for him.
Vixeness87 United States. September 02 2012 12:58. Posts 86
Guess where there are fans there are antifans? honestly this thread needs to be closed since its just a worthless thread that doesn't actually state anything other than QQ about na'vi being popular (as if in sc2 foreigners don't get more attention than koreans who are equally as good or better)
TheYango United States. September 02 2012 13:00. Posts 15768
On September 02 2012 12:20 NTTemplar wrote: If I remember right and got it right, the first international (which was the start of dota 2 beta) Na'vi, relatively unknown at the time, were just roflstomping everyone through the tournament, with dendi being their ace player. Since then their popularity have been as is.
You couldn't even call Dendi the "ace" player for Na'Vi in the first International.
Honestly, I'd call it a product of: 1) Western fans really love their 2nd position ganker/tempo-carrying players 2) Na'Vi is the sole western team remaining in an increasingly Asian-dominated game
So even though Puppey/LoH have just as, if not more outstanding play (my personal opinion is that Dendi is somewhat overrated, and it's Puppey that really makes the Na'Vi machine tick), Dendi gets the attention because of the role he plays.
On September 02 2012 12:21 Seiferz wrote: He's the not-chinese Ferrari. Better at some heroes, worse at others.
That alone makes him really really fun to watch, and the not-chinese (underdog) status pushes him to popularity.
TBH I'd say that Dendi feels a lot like the 430 of late last year. He plays very well in lane and always does well personally, but there are definitely games where he CAN leverage his advantage into a good push/gank/teamfight tempo for his team but doesn't. He still definitely has room to grow as a player.
I guess it just bugs me when people think dota starts and ends with Navi.
It's not very dissimilar to people who wont watch gsl if there are no foreigners in it. In an international site, the chances of finding fans for teams that they can relate to are a lot higher. Fan power is not based of best plays alone, a lot of it has to do with other things. Casters will also have an inherent bias, even if they try to cover it, it will show.
Nilrem United States. September 02 2012 13:04. Posts 1361
People like to relate and DotA 2 (as with other E-sports) has the ability to have people really become support of their respective nations or similar. I mean, look at the International and the cheers for "USA, USA, USA". When that fell through, and not a single Chinese team really losing, people become supportive of Na'Vi.
TheYango United States. September 02 2012 13:04. Posts 15768
On September 02 2012 12:27 writer22816 wrote: Tbh I find Navi fanboys to be a bit annoying too, but maybe that's because I'm a big fan of the Chinese teams. I guess it just bugs me when people think dota starts and ends with Navi. It seems to me like a lot of casters (like Ayesee and Tobi) are also huge Navi fanboys and aren't always successful at separating their bias from what's going on in the games.
I can understand the Na'Vi fanboying. It's actually more surprising that Dendi gets so much love when he's arguably much less outstanding than the other members of Na'Vi. Puppey is a much more exceptional captain, and LightOfHeaven a much more exceptional hard lane solo than Dendi is as a mid player. It's just that those roles get less recognition in general.
Last edit: 2012-09-02 13:06:53
如果有一天星际没有了,如果有一天DOTA没有了,我不会消失.
VarmVaffel Norway. September 02 2012 13:06. Posts 371
I agree with what most people in here say really, it's just bias towards what you can familiarize yourself with. I feel like have nothing in commin with the chinese, but a lot more in common with teams from Europe. And seeing as though you are from Hong Kong (if this is correct?) then I'd assume that you're biased towards asian/Chinese teams.
Mykill Canada. September 02 2012 13:07. Posts 3226
On September 02 2012 12:58 Vixeness87 wrote: Guess where there are fans there are antifans? honestly this thread needs to be closed since its just a worthless thread that doesn't actually state anything other than QQ about na'vi being popular (as if in sc2 foreigners don't get more attention than koreans who are equally as good or better)
I agree, this is the anti fan thread. If you look closely, the OP is from Hong Kong, so we can safely assume he is cheering for his local teams. He is also dumbfounded by why we would cheer for a team that isn't from the scene he follows.
Really, Puppey was on Live on Three this week and talked about the matches this weekend, so I decided to check them out. They showed some really good style and Puppey is a great team captain. Even being new to DotA 2, I could tell shutting down the Naga-sleep combo was super impressive. And they have more character than any of the Chinese teams I have watched this weekend.
Nony on PvT: "It's not imbalanced, the protoss wins and then there is a five minute death animation for the Terran"
. Despite being a fan of Chinese teams, if I must make a decision, I would say Ben "Merlini" Wu is my favorite player; he stomped early versions of Dota single handedly with "shit" heroes like zeus. 
TheYango United States. September 02 2012 13:00. Posts 15768
