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 wcr.4fun Belgium. September 12 2012 08:58. Posts 685 | Profile # |
I've been losing practically all my zvp games, and it's becoming quite frustrating.
My first issue is that they always seem to have a probe at my base before I can place my natural hatch down. I like to open with 12 hatch, but they always hinder it. What's the correct response in such a situation? Just throw down the pool immediately, go for your third and take the hatchery there?
*I've also had one toss cannon rush me on fighting spirit, he just placed two pylons and a cannon between them. My hatchery isn't finished yet so I can't build sunkens on time. How can you possibly kill that in time? Only 3 drones I believe can hit the pylons at the same time, so they don't get killed fast enough... Do sunkens even outrange cannons?
That aside, I can't seem to hold on to my third. They always have so many speedzealots and they rape everything. I have troubles knowing which base they're going to attack and then my forces are divided between my natural and third and he just roflstomps one of the bases. I always have a sim city so that isn't the issue. Should I get lurkers instead?
As of now I'm just playing the liquipedia build, 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra, where you don't get lurkers untill 110 food.
And what is the correct response in a standard game where I've got my third just up and he just forge expanded. he's making some zealots, maybe a dragoon. He goes to one of my bases, but if I try to hold this with just zerglings, it takes so many that I have too few drones which results in him coming with 10+ speedlots at one of my bases and I lose my third again.
Another game this toss was massing corsairs and just raping my overlords. I had to keep my hydra's in my base to prevent them from being killed instantly. But he also added DT's and later even reaver harrass to the mix. I just couldn't move out of my base and in the meantime he's getting the entire map.
And these toss players, always get extra expansions up with cannons and then they're pretty much unkillable. I've gotten so sick of these hidden expansions. They just go with an attack, I manage to push him back most of the time, but then I go check the expands and bam cannons and an expansion going up. But I can't kill it because running up with hydra's is suicide.
And is there a certain timing on when I should go for tier 3? A certain amount of bases? Or based on the game, is there some tips that you guys can give me? Right now my tech feels so random, I don't know when to switch to ultra's, defilers, etc..
I'm hoping the replays where these situations happened got autosaved, so I'll try to upload them. It's getting pretty frustrating, i'm trying my best to improve and I just raped lol... Not to mention, (I had exams so had to stop playing for 2 months) this used to be my best match up...
edit:
cannon rush:
- http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=51665
Lost my third:
- http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=51664
- http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=51666
He didn't get a stargate. He did zealot/archon push, do I need lurkers versus this?
- http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=51667
Guess my sim city was a bit bad, my droning was a bit late and again I didn't see him moving out, I don't know which base he's hitting.
More to come..
edit 2:
- the corsair/reaver/dt shenanigans: http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=51668Last edit: 2012-09-12 10:23:04 |
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 Harem United States. September 12 2012 09:32. Posts 9351 | Profile # |
| find and post the replays |
| | [iHs]h8m ｡◕‿◕｡ 저그 보고 싶어요 정은지 RIP aers ㅠㅠ |
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| Bakuryu Germany. September 12 2012 11:03. Posts 268 | Profile Blog # |
Last edit: 2012-09-18 19:34:47 |
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| ymir233 United States. September 12 2012 12:36. Posts 1229 | Profile Blog # |
Don't follow the 5hat hydra BO on liquipedia. In fact, the latest BW-only SPL involved delaying the nat gas until the spire was finished and instead spamming much-needed evos/creeps/drones/lings/hatches. Also, that 42-supply when you're supposed to pump hydras? If you have 1 sunk + 1 evo at each base + 12 lings when you get to 42 supply, assuming you do it very cleanly, you should be able to barely hold off any given speedlot timing, with or without stargate. Be sure to check which variation with your overlord (lair should finish just before the core does).
Once you deny the first speedzeal attack, usually you just dance around with 1-2 groups of hydras in front of his nat, keeping him in on 2 bases while you either go on 4 bases/lurker/hive + contain or go up on 6 hatches and wait for his 4-temp + obs hanbang timing push (get mutas for this lololols).
If he pushes out with a 1-2 zealots + goon, 8-12 lings should be able to cleanly finish him off. Either that or you just keep pumping lings the moment you see him walk out, send 10 lings to follow his force and rally the rest of the lings to counter him at his nat.
Don't keep hydras at your base. Keep overlords near hydras or scourge the corsairs or keep 2-3 hydras at nat choke against roaming sairs. But don't decrease your army size significantly for corsairs...
Yea the best trick against hidden expansions is to not let them be hidden expansions. After you deny the speedlot timing and the lings really have little use in terms of boosting your main army of hydras, they could probably be really good holding their position at each expo that the P might get, right? (And it also doesn't hurt to patrol your overlords about the sides of the map searching for expos) Habit leads to success in this case. Cannons suck, but not when they don't exist b/c the probe was killed while putting up the nexus.
Hive tech when one of four things happen IMO:
1) You're going for a 4-base, lurker-turtle quick-hive build from the get-go.
2) You're going for an aggressive hydralurk contain that's succeeded and you feel VERY confident that he's not gonna sneak out and win in the next 10 minutes or kill that contain.
3) You crushed his hanbang and is constantly denying his third gas, you have a good army and the only problem is ending the game, because the P is being a little bitch on 2 bases while having an increasingly dwindling army
4) You did something cool and the game stabilized hugely in your favor. |
| | Come motivate me to be cynical about animus at http://infinityandone.blogspot.com/ // Stork proxy gates are beautiful. |
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| knightpraetor United States. September 12 2012 15:31. Posts 173 | Profile # |
you have to drill 5-7 drones to the nat mins and pop 3-4 behind the pylons in time to kill the cannons when you are cannon rushed. Surprisingly even if you lose 3-4 drones while killing the cannons you end up even because toss's expo is delayed. However, it's still annoying cause you have to be fast.
canceling usually leads you to being contained in your main and then the 3rd you expoed elsewhere gets hit while your units can't get out or you sit in your main with extra hatches till hydras and find he is hopelessly economically ahead.
Anyway, just drill and pray that some drones glitch behind the minerals. Hidden expos suck. not much you can do except counter expand and wait for hive or drop to break them. of the two i prefer hive. going for drop when you know the protoss's base will have kicked in by the time you get drop rarely works if they are competent at least at my level (C-).
against sair builds you have to defend the sairs while maintaining enough mobile forces to deny those free expos with cannons. I lost one game today because the toss took one hidden base on the side of the map in the only spot I didn't scout. Gotta scout while you're dealing with the harass.
Also simcity usually doesn't do much to pretect against a lot timing attack unless you also pull drones to block and surround the paths to the sunkens. Assuming you did that and still died, then you either didn't have enough sunkens, didn't have enough lings, or your lings were at your other base because you were being careless.
also zealot archon sucks. Just have hydra and sunkens and you should rape it.. I think it's meant to wreck early mutas, but i don't really feel like it's as scary as a lot timing attack to be honest.Last edit: 2012-09-12 15:31:56 |
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| 13Julia Canada. September 12 2012 16:28. Posts 77 | Profile # |
"My first issue is that they always seem to have a probe at my base before I can place my natural hatch down. I like to open with 12 hatch, but they always hinder it. What's the correct response in such a situation? Just throw down the pool immediately, go for your third and take the hatchery there? "
-a good zerg takes two drones to make an exp, if you are blocked, place the hatch anywhere close, if you really want to go 3 base from the start, yea - place it on another exp location. Why not play 2 base?
Consider playing 9ov 9pool it's a solid opening into exp. 12 hatch is just that, rushable, cannonable, gives toss more time to pump probes early.
I watched one of the reps you got 1a2a3a by zealots, the problem is with your understanding of what you play, you don't scout, you have no idea when the protoss attacks. In that game he didn't go corsairs, just 5gate zealots, what you did was try to defend with 1 cannon vs something you don't know. Lack of scouting = loses happen. You can't counter something which is not scouted properly, once scouted you can add the needed defence. It's not whether you decide to defend with lings/lure/muta or whatever, but you need to react, you can't follow build orders blindly. |
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| wcr.4fun Belgium. September 12 2012 21:04. Posts 685 | Profile # |
Thanks for the responses.
On September 12 2012 12:36 ymir233 wrote:
Don't follow the 5hat hydra BO on liquipedia. In fact, the latest BW-only SPL involved delaying the nat gas until the spire was finished and instead spamming much-needed evos/creeps/drones/lings/hatches. Also, that 42-supply when you're supposed to pump hydras? If you have 1 sunk + 1 evo at each base + 12 lings when you get to 42 supply, assuming you do it very cleanly, you should be able to barely hold off any given speedlot timing, with or without stargate. Be sure to check which variation with your overlord (lair should finish just before the core does).
I have seen a lot of people play this lurker/ling defensive style on quick 4 bases with a lot of creep colonies and hatcheries etc. They go for a quick hive. I can try this playstyle, but I love hydra's so much. And I remember a game of effort on gladiator (or collosseum) can't remember, where he went this mass hydra's style. So I think this style is still viable right?
And I read the actual guide where the liquipedia article is based on (5 hatch hydra) and he was talking about a style that works well versus 'true bisu' style with mass corsairs and dts/reavers. He said I should be focusing on drones/scourges/hatcheries and then switch to hydra lurk. Is this still acceptable?
Drone drilling; should I take for example 6-7 drones, right click one mineral patch and then try to click past the minerals with a couple of drones, like that mineral walking trick?
 oes anyone know of a custom map where you can train drone moving shot? I think it could be a helpful trick to learn so I can perhaps damage his probe so much that he doesn't bother with blocking the natural.
I agree my main issues are lack of scouting and I think my general macro has declined a lot in the time I had to stop playing. I don't have the mechanics right now to macro greatly and keep tabs on everything, but I will practice.
Another huge issue though is my lack of knowledge basically, even if I scout, I don't really know how I should deviate from my standard plan to the information I just got. For example, I scouted that 5 gate zealot (If I remember correctly) (late) but liquipedia is telling me lurkers are great vs +1 speedzeal timing.
And how to know which base he's going to attack? Should I have a group of lings out and follow his army and based on his movements move my hydra's to my third or natural?
Edit: or what is the 'best' standard/safe opening on fighting spirit for example? Overpool? Gas variant/non gas? Last edit: 2012-09-13 00:39:57 |
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| ymir233 United States. September 13 2012 11:40. Posts 1229 | Profile Blog # |
On September 12 2012 21:04 wcr.4fun wrote:Thanks for the responses.
Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:36 ymir233 wrote:
Don't follow the 5hat hydra BO on liquipedia. In fact, the latest BW-only SPL involved delaying the nat gas until the spire was finished and instead spamming much-needed evos/creeps/drones/lings/hatches. Also, that 42-supply when you're supposed to pump hydras? If you have 1 sunk + 1 evo at each base + 12 lings when you get to 42 supply, assuming you do it very cleanly, you should be able to barely hold off any given speedlot timing, with or without stargate. Be sure to check which variation with your overlord (lair should finish just before the core does).
I have seen a lot of people play this lurker/ling defensive style on quick 4 bases with a lot of creep colonies and hatcheries etc. They go for a quick hive. I can try this playstyle, but I love hydra's so much. And I remember a game of effort on gladiator (or collosseum) can't remember, where he went this mass hydra's style. So I think this style is still viable right? And I read the actual guide where the liquipedia article is based on (5 hatch hydra) and he was talking about a style that works well versus 'true bisu' style with mass corsairs and dts/reavers. He said I should be focusing on drones/scourges/hatcheries and then switch to hydra lurk. Is this still acceptable? Drone drilling; should I take for example 6-7 drones, right click one mineral patch and then try to click past the minerals with a couple of drones, like that mineral walking trick? oes anyone know of a custom map where you can train drone moving shot? I think it could be a helpful trick to learn so I can perhaps damage his probe so much that he doesn't bother with blocking the natural. I agree my main issues are lack of scouting and I think my general macro has declined a lot in the time I had to stop playing. I don't have the mechanics right now to macro greatly and keep tabs on everything, but I will practice. Another huge issue though is my lack of knowledge basically, even if I scout, I don't really know how I should deviate from my standard plan to the information I just got. For example, I scouted that 5 gate zealot (If I remember correctly) (late) but liquipedia is telling me lurkers are great vs +1 speedzeal timing. And how to know which base he's going to attack? Should I have a group of lings out and follow his army and based on his movements move my hydra's to my third or natural? Edit: or what is the 'best' standard/safe opening on fighting spirit for example? Overpool? Gas variant/non gas?
Just go 12 hatch.
Also, you misunderstand what I'm saying. BW ZvP, in its most recent form, was something like this:
1) Do some version of 5 hatch build (OR go for a 4 hatch lair into lurker-focused build, but that's rarer and more situational, unless you know what you're doing it can be much harder)
2) From this 5 hatch build, do one of three-ish things:
a. Go onto 6 hatches/3bases or 6hatch/4base and spam hydra + 1 muta group with non-saturated mineral lines in preparation vs a hanbang (or to crush an early third),
b. Go onto four bases with more lurkers/creeps/evos while getting quick hive into turtle with minimal lurkers and lots of lings/sunks until ultraling comes.
c. Do early aggression with 1 or 2 groups of hydras in front of his base soon after the speedlot timing and contain the opponent on two gas bases with eventual hydralurk.
What I'm suggesting is that you're doing step 1 wrong. The drone cap is essentially dictated by the speedlot timing. That 42 supply you see on Liquipedia? It's b/c it barely prepares 12 lings (assuming you started pumping 8 more lings ~38 supply) + some sunks + evo before the speedlot timing hits (and you can adjust it as needed). You're supposed to barely block that shit while making hydras and then pressure the opponent with the hydras while making the round of drones that will saturate your third and possibly your fourth bases, readying you for a transition to Hive on 4 bases or for a good economy that can pump out 6 hatches' worth of hydra/muta for a hanbang. So in a sense, it's a two-part transition to step 2 that you're doing a bit off-beat. |
| | Come motivate me to be cynical about animus at http://infinityandone.blogspot.com/ // Stork proxy gates are beautiful. |
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| wcr.4fun Belgium. September 17 2012 09:07. Posts 685 | Profile # |
What's the correct response if you see toss not going for a stargate (after FFE) but rather for one of the following:
1) straight up more gateways (+ citdadel)
or
2) citadel/gateways (with probably fast templar archives)
Vs 1 I added more sunkens and got mutalisks, it worked alright. He made tons of dragoons/zealots quick but busted my natural and his dragoons were pretty strong vs my mutalisks (but that's probably because my micro needs a lot of work).
vs 2 I just went for quick(er) lurker turtle on a fast 4th base to hive.
And when is it the right time to get aggressive in the zvp match up if they'replaying standard stargate opening after FFE.
Most of the time the protoss players I play against, go for a quick third and start cannoning it up.
I try to stop their third from going up or just attack their natural with 2 groups of hydras but most of the time they have a lot of speed zealots making me lose a lot of hydras while only exchanging army (most of the time favoured for him because protoss army imo is a lot stronger in smaller numbers, my hydras get exponentially stronger the more there are before storm).
What should my mentality be when they go for a quick third? What should my mentality be if they do not? And with that I also mean my general game plan.
I think I'm also losing a lot of games because I do the muta switch too late or not at all when I go for a lot of hydras. Their storm always rapes me no matter how hard I try to dodge them.
I'd post more replays but I have a feeling not many people bother with watching them...
edit: I actually read the above post again. And seems versus a quick third I should just let it go up (if I can't stop it with speedligns or something) and wait for 3 groups of hydras and 1 group of mutalisks?Last edit: 2012-09-17 09:16:24 |
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| Bakuryu Germany. September 18 2012 19:55. Posts 268 | Profile Blog # |
with 3 hatch spire vs no stargate ffe, i would advice u to go 3 hatch muta (with 2 sunkens in natural/3rd) into 4 hatch lurker. if he follows up his +1 speedzeal push with 2 stargate, u need "some" extra hydras.
there are generally 2 ways of responding to a 3rd by protoss
1. u have enough units/tech units in the right place to deny it
2. u make drones and prepare to fight a 3 base protoss.
which u do depends on maps/playstyle (for example, on fs, its rather hard to effectively deny 3rd)
if u make units and u cant deny his 3rd, because he already has zeals on ramp + ht/cannons behind it, then your behind and u either should drone hard while harassing with your units/tech units, or go for some really big agression like attacking his natural (or drop his main).
Last edit: 2012-09-18 19:55:53 |
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| [sc1f]eonzerg Spain. September 18 2012 23:57. Posts 1487 | Profile Blog # |
| if he take third, assuming u not all in and have every expo well saturated. u just need take 4 expo and add +`2 hatcherys. remember there is a rule for hatcherys. 3 expos 6 hatcherys 4 expos 8 etc. |
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| wcr.4fun Belgium. September 21 2012 06:29. Posts 685 | Profile # |
I played versus a 2 gate C player so he was a bit above my league I suppose. But I thought I held the initial pressure quite well. My response was to cancel my third, make zerglings 'non-stop' and get speed for my lings.
Now I did a lot of things differently, but I'm trying to do an analyses of what I should have done:
1) I should have taken my drones off of gas, after researching speed.
2) About this one I'm not too sure, since I've seen controversial advice, some say I should not build a sunken when overpooling, some say you can if you don't do the gas variant. I made a sunken and thought it helped me a lot with holding his initial zealot attack and further on. Opinions appreciated.
3) I should have kept my overlord over his gates and check wether he's building zealots or trying to tech up.
4) After I hold his initial zealot attack, I should put the drones back on gas and tech towards mutalisks.
My reasoning for this is, because it's 2 gate and not 1 gate tech, my mutalisks can easily be 'out' or in the process of being made when his stargate/corsair finishes.
In this game, I got confused with the response to 1 tech and went for hydralisks because I was afraid his corsairs would arrive a lot earlier (again poor awareness with the overlord etc).
5) After some hard droning when he's taking his expansion, I should again make some more zerglings because:
- I want to secure a third and defend my natural from his zealots
- My mutalisks alone won't be able to stop his speedzealots from killing my third and he's definitely going to attack with his zealots as soon as I start harrassing him with my mutalisks.
6) In the game, I had about 18 or so zerglings but tried to do some damage with them to his economy, which failed miserably. I should keep my zerglings near his zealots, but should try to lose none, so I don't have to remake them and instead can make drones and so that I can use them to defend my natural/third.
7) After securing a third with the help of the zerglings and mutalisks, I can continue harrassing him and go towards a 'normal zvp' game. Meaning, going for hydralisks or lurkers, adding hatcheries, evo chambers etc.
In this game I also went for 'quick' lurkers because I didn't feel safe. I also went for a sim city at my natural. I think lurkers could be a good response as well, if I hadn't lost all those zerglings. Then I could have secured a third and protect my natural at the same time from his speadzealots. But mutalisks are probably better because I can also damage his economy, snipe some units, have 'mapcontrol' in general.
When going mutalisks off of two base, should I add a third hatchery? When? Should I add a sunken or two for a little sim city? Or is this not necessary?
Any tips/advice, while actually watching the replay would be highly appreciated!
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=51779Last edit: 2012-09-21 06:32:18 |
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