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| Sapp Poland. September 13 2012 02:49. Posts 173 | Profile # |
On September 13 2012 02:22 MstrJinbo wrote:
Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 01:26 foutre wrote:
Going 2 base anything besides infestors or mutas just puts you too far behind economically without justification for it.
Why is that exactly? I'm certainly not disagreeing with you, I just don't quite get why you're less behind economically with infestors or mutas than with roach/hydra. Is it because you have to invest more in your army/upgrades? Or because you have to transition to infestors anyway, so going 2 base infestor moves nicely into the late game? Or is it that a 3 base roach/hydra is just better? Sorry for being so clueless!
When going for a fast third, zergs usually build a round of speedlings to cover the expo. Those speedlings can easily deny your expo and your build doesn't really sound like it has room to defend the third. But you got to do something as the fast third should be pretty good against your roach hydra attack.
Yeah, banelings have generally been enough for me to defend speedling pressure, but I guess I'm just using bad control at my level as a crutch that allows bad strategy to work.
Mostly it's because hydras don't get better the longer they are on the field like infestors and don't give the level of map control As mutas. Hydras have been used by pros in the zvz midgame and will continue to be used ( although less than muta and infestor) Hydras are best when you are attacking or defending attacks and they suck when just sitting there doing nothing.
LoooooL xD
sorry, but that really tickles me immensely:D
okay, sorry.
What you just said, is ofc true, but you are thinking about it too much ;P
Or you are just an another player who not yet realize what kind of crap hydras really are.
Go and open some unit tester and a-move any amount of hydras vs the same amount of roaches(I say a-move because a-move is the best case scenario you will get). Go ahead and even get range upgrade for them, what the hell. What you will find is that roaches wins vs hydras like always, while being half the price. And that's why hydrars are not used until 200/200 where lack of hp is covered by 50 roaches that are ALWAYS in front.Last edit: 2012-09-13 02:56:07 |
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| MstrJinbo United States. September 13 2012 03:13. Posts 809 | Profile # |
On September 13 2012 02:49 Sapp wrote:
Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 02:22 MstrJinbo wrote:
On September 13 2012 01:26 foutre wrote:
Going 2 base anything besides infestors or mutas just puts you too far behind economically without justification for it.
Why is that exactly? I'm certainly not disagreeing with you, I just don't quite get why you're less behind economically with infestors or mutas than with roach/hydra. Is it because you have to invest more in your army/upgrades? Or because you have to transition to infestors anyway, so going 2 base infestor moves nicely into the late game? Or is it that a 3 base roach/hydra is just better? Sorry for being so clueless!
When going for a fast third, zergs usually build a round of speedlings to cover the expo. Those speedlings can easily deny your expo and your build doesn't really sound like it has room to defend the third. But you got to do something as the fast third should be pretty good against your roach hydra attack.
Yeah, banelings have generally been enough for me to defend speedling pressure, but I guess I'm just using bad control at my level as a crutch that allows bad strategy to work.
Mostly it's because hydras don't get better the longer they are on the field like infestors and don't give the level of map control As mutas. Hydras have been used by pros in the zvz midgame and will continue to be used ( although less than muta and infestor) Hydras are best when you are attacking or defending attacks and they suck when just sitting there doing nothing.
LoooooL xD sorry, but that really tickles me immensely:D okay, sorry. What you just said, is ofc true, but you are thinking about it too much ;P Or you are just an another player who not yet realize what kind of crap hydras really are. Go and open some unit tester and a-move any amount of hydras vs the same amount of roaches(I say a-move because a-move is the best case scenario you will get). Go ahead and even get range upgrade for them, what the hell. What you will find is that roaches wins vs hydras like always, while being half the price. And that's why hydrars are not used until 200/200 where lack of hp is covered by 50 roaches that are ALWAYS in front.
Don't know how this contributes to the discussion at all. Hydras are bad, I never said differently. That being said, they have their uses. Whether or not they are good at what they do is a different matter of discussion.
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| JDub United States. September 13 2012 03:44. Posts 927 | Profile # |
On September 13 2012 02:49 Sapp wrote:
Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 02:22 MstrJinbo wrote:
On September 13 2012 01:26 foutre wrote:
Going 2 base anything besides infestors or mutas just puts you too far behind economically without justification for it.
Why is that exactly? I'm certainly not disagreeing with you, I just don't quite get why you're less behind economically with infestors or mutas than with roach/hydra. Is it because you have to invest more in your army/upgrades? Or because you have to transition to infestors anyway, so going 2 base infestor moves nicely into the late game? Or is it that a 3 base roach/hydra is just better? Sorry for being so clueless!
When going for a fast third, zergs usually build a round of speedlings to cover the expo. Those speedlings can easily deny your expo and your build doesn't really sound like it has room to defend the third. But you got to do something as the fast third should be pretty good against your roach hydra attack.
Yeah, banelings have generally been enough for me to defend speedling pressure, but I guess I'm just using bad control at my level as a crutch that allows bad strategy to work.
Mostly it's because hydras don't get better the longer they are on the field like infestors and don't give the level of map control As mutas. Hydras have been used by pros in the zvz midgame and will continue to be used ( although less than muta and infestor) Hydras are best when you are attacking or defending attacks and they suck when just sitting there doing nothing.
LoooooL xD sorry, but that really tickles me immensely:D okay, sorry. What you just said, is ofc true, but you are thinking about it too much ;P Or you are just an another player who not yet realize what kind of crap hydras really are. Go and open some unit tester and a-move any amount of hydras vs the same amount of roaches(I say a-move because a-move is the best case scenario you will get). Go ahead and even get range upgrade for them, what the hell. What you will find is that roaches wins vs hydras like always, while being half the price. And that's why hydrars are not used until 200/200 where lack of hp is covered by 50 roaches that are ALWAYS in front.
This is getting really off-topic, but nobody is arguing that pure hydra beats pure roach. Try a-moving 35 roaches and 10 hydras against 50 roaches, and see what happens. Roach/hydra absolutely crushes pure roach.
@Belial
I don't think there is 1 single best mid-game ZvZ opener. I think all of the ones you mention are viable and have their own pros+cons. A bunch of people are just coming and posting what they do in mid-game ZvZ, but I don't think those people are really answering your question at all. Perhaps if HotS weren't coming out, in a year or two we might have a very set way to play ZvZ at a high level, but as for now I think all those openers you mention are viable.
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| lizardchase United States. September 13 2012 04:11. Posts 11 | Profile # |
Hello, Diamond Zerg on NA.
This video linked Here really helped me out with my ZvZ
Basically it is a 2 base double evo +1 melee +1 carapace speedling timing into 3 base Ultra/infestor/ling.
This I find works well against roach/hydra and roach/infestor, but the key is to deny their 3rd and defend any roach all-ins with infestors and spines.
I've also been experimenting instead of going infestor tech right away going for a spire if I see them trying to do a muta style ZvZ. In which case I get my own Mutas, but I do not get any upgrades for them instead focusing on the upgrades for lings so I can snipe hatches and kill drones quickly.
That is my 2 cents 
Other than that been trying out scarlet's 2base 1 evo raoch into late 3 and infestor tech works pretty nice as well so watch vods of her, especially from WCS NA from last month. I learned allot and they were very entertaining Last edit: 2012-09-13 04:14:56 |
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| TheRageNerd Croatia. September 13 2012 05:03. Posts 10 | Profile # |
I really enjoy doing a little special ZvZ build I have mixed up. It's basically speedling expand (my version gets more drones for you than you get with 15 hatch while defending Vs. my lings, and I end up in an economic lead, with a Baneling nest and a spine for defense at home in case he decides to all in).
(Versus Hatch first)
14 Gas
14 Pool
Take drones off of gas @100 gas
Lings until 22 food
22 hatch (this is more of a mental thing, usually it's at 21 food, but if you delay it just by 1 food, your opponent could think you're doing a baneling bust or some other 1base strat, which means he could make even more lings, which probably won't be done before you have speed done, and you can just avoid them, and take out drones. Ultimately, you made him make even more lings, and even less drones)
At this point you should have about 16 lings, speed is about to finish, and now it's time to drone up a lot.
The point of this build is to make drones while he is busy defending Vs. your speedlings. So your main goal with your speedlings is to kill drones, queens or lings in lesser numbers without losing too many lings of your own. (cost efficiency is key to executing this). In a standard game, where he does a 15 hatch, 16 pool 16 gas, he should have 4 lings popping out while you have 6 lings at his natural, of course, you should be able to win the fight. Sooner or later he will have more lings than you, but if you kept making lings until 22 food, it's about the same, then you can harass a lot. After the harassment is over, you should have around 30 drones while hes near 25-30, but you are generally ahead (if you killed some drones, it's even less for him).
Versus 1base opener
14 gas
14 pool
Keep drones on gas, and get a baneling nest
Depend on what he does next, you can choose what to do yourself.
If you scout him taking an expo, you can expo yourself or do a baneling bust (while taking your own expo, or just do an all in which should be hard to defend if he has just speedlings and no banes/roaches)
If you scout no expo by the time you are 22 food (because thats the latest time you should get an expo with a 1base opener if you intend to macro), get a spine, a couple of banes and keep making lings. You could also try to take about 5-10 lings and do a runby as he leaves his base (if you're lucky he has no spines/units at home to defend).
Now it's time to transition.
At around 30 food
(when you basically cant do much with your initial speedlings any more) get drones back on gas, get another gas, a roach warren and an evolution chamber.
Start +1 range upgrade for roaches ASAP.
(remember to keep scouting what your opponent is doing, because you may have to delay the +1 to get out a few roaches and/or banelings for defense of an all in that could come around this time)
If no aggression is coming, and you started your +1, at 200 gas, get lair, 2 more gases, another evolution chamber and a couple of roaches to secure your third later on.
Third base at around 9 minutes (it's a pretty standard timing).
As soon as lair is done, get an infestation pit (it should be done at 9:30 - 10:00 latest)
When your third is done, get a Macro hatch, and a couple of spines (I prefer 3-4) so safety, because you're playing infestor roach spine turtle until 2-2, which is when you should start attacking).
Get infestors out ASAP.
After everything is said and done, and no real aggression is done, assuming the other guy is doing roach/infestor or roach/hydra, you should be ahead in upgrades (and have a nice attack timing before his 2-2 is completed), full drones on 3 bases, taking a 4th, saturating it, maybe even taking a 5th already, while attackng / containing him on 3 bases. I also prefer being 190/200 food while attacking him, and making 20 lings to do a runby in his natural and main, to take out queens and drones. It's really good because his entire army is out of position to defend your attack.
Also, I'm a high masters Zerg player, my best match-up is ZvZ, so I do know what I'm doing, if anyone is wondering.Last edit: 2012-09-13 07:26:42 |
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| BuiBui United States. September 14 2012 09:37. Posts 513 | Profile # |
Rock, Paper, Sissors.
There is no "best" Mid game in zvz. You need to pick a build that you feel you have the best mechanics for. and have game plans and pathways that allow you to get small advantages until you can crush the other player.
The real question is: who gets ahead or behind during the transition phaze.
exampes: 2 base muta ---> +1 Roaches ---> +2 Roaches ---> hive tech ---> BL
quick 3 base with roach ----> + 1 Roaches with Infestors ---> +2 and +1 Roach Hydra infestor ----> BL
+ 1 + 1 lings ---> +2 +2 Lings with infestor ----> ultra.
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| Neverblink United States. September 14 2012 10:22. Posts 31 | Profile # |
I was going to post my build order and then I realized every ZvsZ is a huge reaction ordeal.
I open with 14Gas/14Pool in ladder play due to 10 pooling happening so darn often that I'm sick of losing to it with my standard 14/15/17.
Anyhow, I've grown to use Lings in every match. I like upgrading the armor really quickly, 2 banes are usually enough to defend with and queens so gas is dumped here. Then I will make a "Muta" clean up crew to take out overlords and settling back on my Roach burrow style (use muta's to knock out Oversteer's and they become a pain in the butt).
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 Belial88 United States. September 14 2012 11:33. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
this discussion is not really going where I'm intending it to go, so I'll make it more clear -
What is the best MACRO way to play midgame zvz?
Fast third before Lair?
Mutas?
Ling/infestor?
2 base Roach/Infestor then take third?
Can you go fast third before lair? Or is 2 base roach/infestor into third better? Is it situational in terms of which is better when?
I've just been going 2 base muta recently because I'm clueless on how to play zvz safely. Muta play can get you to at least code s so I'm just going to rely on that. |
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| Insoleet France. September 14 2012 15:15. Posts 1472 | Profile # |
On September 14 2012 11:33 Belial88 wrote:
this discussion is not really going where I'm intending it to go, so I'll make it more clear -
What is the best MACRO way to play midgame zvz?
Fast third before Lair?
Mutas?
Ling/infestor?
2 base Roach/Infestor then take third?
Can you go fast third before lair? Or is 2 base roach/infestor into third better? Is it situational in terms of which is better when?
I've just been going 2 base muta recently because I'm clueless on how to play zvz safely. Muta play can get you to at least code s so I'm just going to rely on that.
Lets think about it this way :
- If you go fast third before lair, its a fail if the opponent manages to deny your third for too much time.
- So, what can do the opponent to deny your third without having his plan delayed ? Like, delaying your third and still having mutas out @ 9:00, or infestors roachs +1 @ 10:00...
What is the best way to protect the third AND still having the macro lead you want by taking this third ?
i'm currently trying this : 1/1 ling + fast third -> 1/1 roaches + infestors -> 3/3 roaches infestors 1/5 ultra
If the opponent goes fast third i'm able to deny it with 1/1 lings. If he denies my third, we are even.
If he goes mutas, i always have huge problems. Actually, i dont know how to deal with mutas, whatever opening i do
If he goes 2 bases roaches its quite hard to defend. Maybe i should just counter attack with lings, add spines and defend with roaches
If he goes 2 bases roaches infestors its quite hard to defend too. Because he has more infestors than me / more energy. But i think i dont use my fast third fastly enough.
Well, what do you think of on opening like this one ? I'm currently totally lost in ZvZ, it looks too much like Paper Sisor game and i'm trying to find a safe opening with a reactive style.Last edit: 2012-09-14 16:44:27 |
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| Belial88 United States. September 14 2012 22:32. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
You just take your third with 4 banelings and a handful of speedlings. There isn't really anything an opponent can do to deny your third, short of a hardcore ling/bane all-in or roach/ling all-in, in which case you shouldn't be trying to take a third against a n all-in. And 4 banes, handful of speedlings, and being able to reactively make more, will make sure a TON of lings will be needed to deny that third.
I don't really understand your opening. You are spending too much gas on way too many upgrades for no reason. You are better off playing ling/infestor into quick ultras than try to catch up on roaches when you are way behind on them. That's why you have such trouble with mutas (spent too much on roach tech instead of infestors), 2 base roach (even with a fast third build, you should easily handle 2 base speedroach, if it's 2 base hatch tech roach, thats just an all-in you aren't scouting for properly), and roach/infestor is not offensive at all that should be easy to stop too.
You should probably stick to one style. 2 base muta, 2 base ling/infestor, 2 base roach/infestor. It sounds like even a fast third opening would kill you, because you are going to be too far behind with your tech and your unit count with going both infestors and 1/1/1 off a quick third. |
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| Insoleet France. September 14 2012 23:32. Posts 1472 | Profile # |
On September 14 2012 22:32 Belial88 wrote:
You just take your third with 4 banelings and a handful of speedlings. There isn't really anything an opponent can do to deny your third, short of a hardcore ling/bane all-in or roach/ling all-in, in which case you shouldn't be trying to take a third against a n all-in. And 4 banes, handful of speedlings, and being able to reactively make more, will make sure a TON of lings will be needed to deny that third.
I don't really understand your opening. You are spending too much gas on way too many upgrades for no reason. You are better off playing ling/infestor into quick ultras than try to catch up on roaches when you are way behind on them. That's why you have such trouble with mutas (spent too much on roach tech instead of infestors), 2 base roach (even with a fast third build, you should easily handle 2 base speedroach, if it's 2 base hatch tech roach, thats just an all-in you aren't scouting for properly), and roach/infestor is not offensive at all that should be easy to stop too.
You should probably stick to one style. 2 base muta, 2 base ling/infestor, 2 base roach/infestor. It sounds like even a fast third opening would kill you, because you are going to be too far behind with your tech and your unit count with going both infestors and 1/1/1 off a quick third.
Ok i see, lets stick to the classics so. |
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| AdrianHealey Belgium. September 14 2012 23:51. Posts 480 | Profile # |
I prefer two base muta.
I am absolutely destroyed by:
- Roach/hydra two base all in.
I get killed by, but I can also manage to kill:
- very well executed and dedicated roach attack (no third)
- Fast third with queen and spores (macro war; depends on how much damage I can do)
I usually kill:
- Fast infestors (out macro them, go for infestors immediately after muta's as well and spine up)
Only diamond though, but 'given equal skill'; this works. 
Last edit: 2012-09-14 23:53:34 |
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| Belial88 United States. September 15 2012 01:46. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
- very well executed and dedicated roach attack (no third)
You should be able to tell they are all-inning with no drones at the nat, no gas, no third, no lair, making roaches before taking a third base. That's not an issue of your build in the midgame, it's an issue of early game. A 6 pool doesnt counter muta play, it 'counters' someone not responding correctly.
I am absolutely destroyed by:
- Roach/hydra two base all in.
If someone responds to your mutas with hydras instead of mutas, you should get baneling speed and more mutas. You should easily wreck them, just flank with the banes. Even slowbanes will work (i mean if they mass a shitton of roach/hydra or go 2 base roach/hydra/infestor, you'll need speedbanes though, which is why you should start the upgrade imo).
This isn't an issue of muta play countered by 2 base all-in or hydras, it's just an issue of you not responding correctly I think. Throw up some reps, maybe I can help you. But that's why no one 'counters' mutas with hydras, you just make lots of banelings and when he pushes, flank with banes and the mass spines in your nat will hold him. You should be able to hold your third as the time it takes for him to make enough roach/hydra to crush a large ling/bane/muta army, you should have a 3 base economy that you'd actually crush him, and possibly even have your own mass roach army to crush him (if he's on 2 base, just mass roaches, no need to add infestors or hydras to the mix, or, you can just go ling/bane/muta, since if he pushes out with just a handful of hydras, can't exactly transition into a roach based army to fight straight up in time).
I think a more succesful 2 base all-in vs mutas is like roach/queen/infestor. I think that's a lot stickier of a situation, in which case I think you should base trade (snipe his nydus if he uses a nydus, or you need to out-micro him and split your mutas well to damage the infestors on the way, you should be able to work him down).
- Fast third with queen and spores (macro war; depends on how much damage I can do)
yea. does it? I mean like, if someone goes mutas, into third, i think fast third can work (just drone up hard). But I have trouble when they've been mining gas for a long time or go quick mutas, and dont take the third right away but get lots of lings. You just dont really have a ground army if you drone up your third, and then like if they take a somewhat later third, like when spire is done, you just sort of have this situation where they can do a hard ling/muta attack and you are just sort of spread out.
Looking at games I've lost when going fast third vs mutas, i think it's usually my fault I lost. But it just seems so hard to actually get a lead against muta play, most of the time I just come out even as we both basically drone up our thirds at the same time. I'm wondering if 2 base roach/infestor to third is a 'safer' or 'better' play.
I don't really know. That's what's so confusing to me. How much of it is X play counters Y, and how much of it is just that I suck. At best, I can't really seem to get far ahead going fast third and defending the mutas, that you'd think you'd get. It's not like DTs or something where if you hold you just have this monumental lead. I hold the mutas with fast third, and it's just like oh okay the game is even.Last edit: 2012-09-15 01:47:21 |
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| Insoleet France. September 16 2012 19:22. Posts 1472 | Profile # |
Show nested quote +- Fast third with queen and spores (macro war; depends on how much damage I can do)
yea. does it? I mean like, if someone goes mutas, into third, i think fast third can work (just drone up hard). But I have trouble when they've been mining gas for a long time or go quick mutas, and dont take the third right away but get lots of lings. You just dont really have a ground army if you drone up your third, and then like if they take a somewhat later third, like when spire is done, you just sort of have this situation where they can do a hard ling/muta attack and you are just sort of spread out. Looking at games I've lost when going fast third vs mutas, i think it's usually my fault I lost. But it just seems so hard to actually get a lead against muta play, most of the time I just come out even as we both basically drone up our thirds at the same time. I'm wondering if 2 base roach/infestor to third is a 'safer' or 'better' play. I don't really know. That's what's so confusing to me. How much of it is X play counters Y, and how much of it is just that I suck. At best, I can't really seem to get far ahead going fast third and defending the mutas, that you'd think you'd get. It's not like DTs or something where if you hold you just have this monumental lead. I hold the mutas with fast third, and it's just like oh okay the game is even.
During the WCS EU, Vortix vs Bly.
Bly mass muta. 3 bases.
Vortix stuck on 2 base for a long time, roach infestors and 9 queens. (yes, 9 QUEENS)
Vortix is able to absolutely destroy Bly,
http://www.twitch.tv/dreamhacktv/b/332247133 @ 4:57:00
Very cool game !
So it seems that the most efficient way to counter muta play is mass queens + infestors. |
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| Chaosvuistje Netherlands. September 16 2012 20:25. Posts 2548 | Profile # |
It really depends on the decision making of the zergs in question. 3 base before lair can work against 2 base mutalisk if the 3 base zerg gets a quick hydralisk den and holds the third. While if the 2 base mutalisk player decides to go for a big zergling-baneling-mutalisk attack on the opponents third before saturating his own third can put the opponent behind.
Damage in mirrors is a lot more valuable than in the other match ups, especially against the race that can basically saturate a base instantly. This is why 2 base mutalisk is so viable, because the initial mutalisks do so much damage that they will even out the economy against most openings and styles.
If a 3 base before lair zerg can saturate that base effectively or even loses his third, he has pretty much lost any advantage he had against any mutalisking player. Muta's just give you so much counter attack potential that you can almost always buy time or put a zerg at an all in because you are doing so much damage at his bases. I really don't like 2 base infestor unless you are going for that ultralisk style or want to go for a huge 2 to 3 base all in against a mutalisk player.
I do think that going for mutalisks is viable if no huge damage is done in the earlygame ( before 2 bases are saturated ) but I think going 3 base before lair is stronger if you are ahead in econ already because you basically just have to defend a counter attack. Any 3 base before lair zerg really doesn't want his third sniped and in the current constant counterattacking metagame that can't be guaranteed as much. 2 base mutalisk gives you more transitions and decisions to make, which means you are never truly behind unless you do bad decision X. |
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| 734pot Australia. September 16 2012 20:42. Posts 180 | Profile # |
On September 16 2012 20:25 Chaosvuistje wrote:
It really depends on the decision making of the zergs in question. 3 base before lair can work against 2 base mutalisk if the 3 base zerg gets a quick hydralisk den and holds the third. While if the 2 base mutalisk player decides to go for a big zergling-baneling-mutalisk attack on the opponents third before saturating his own third can put the opponent behind.
Damage in mirrors is a lot more valuable than in the other match ups, especially against the race that can basically saturate a base instantly. This is why 2 base mutalisk is so viable, because the initial mutalisks do so much damage that they will even out the economy against most openings and styles.
If a 3 base before lair zerg can saturate that base effectively or even loses his third, he has pretty much lost any advantage he had against any mutalisking player. Muta's just give you so much counter attack potential that you can almost always buy time or put a zerg at an all in because you are doing so much damage at his bases. I really don't like 2 base infestor unless you are going for that ultralisk style or want to go for a huge 2 to 3 base all in against a mutalisk player.
I do think that going for mutalisks is viable if no huge damage is done in the earlygame ( before 2 bases are saturated ) but I think going 3 base before lair is stronger if you are ahead in econ already because you basically just have to defend a counter attack. Any 3 base before lair zerg really doesn't want his third sniped and in the current constant counterattacking metagame that can't be guaranteed as much. 2 base mutalisk gives you more transitions and decisions to make, which means you are never truly behind unless you do bad decision X.
I tend to agree with you, I think that 2 base muta/ling into third is a really strong style and allows you to straight up kill someone who makes the wrong response. At least in my experience this has been true, I usually straight up kill someone who over commits to hydras. Personally I think the best response seems to be making additional queens up and then completely driving the mutas off once you get some infestors out, I've seen this in a lot of pro games.
2 base muta just seems to be so solid, even if you don't do a great amount of damage to your opponent, the fact that you gain great map control by killing off overlords and the mutas also often prompt the opponent to throw a ton of units at you, which doesn't seem to achieve a great amount in most cases, as it doesn't force you to delay your tech, as your defence is mostly in the form of muta/ling.
Just a bit of theory crafting, against an infestor/ling player, would a viable timing attack be to force as many fungals out as possible with the mutas then going all in with ling/speed bane? |
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| Stardroid United Kingdom. September 17 2012 05:32. Posts 144 | Profile # |
hi Belial just posting to help you out. TheRageNerd's style of a 14/14 speedling pressure build is similar to what I do. I follow Machine's speedling pressure as explained to ChanmanV (search in youtube, it's a fantastic VOD), and have had really good success as it keeps greed in check and gives you reads on when it's safe to drone and get that third up. I've usually encountered either two base mutas, or two base roach, thinking that I'm somehow very behind. The mutas are a pain but the third is up in time to have spores and queens. Against roaches the plan is to just get, well, more roaches, with the defender's advantage (matching roach numbers leading up to getting pushed). The goal is a macro game so it's not as cheesy as you might think but forces both players to have units and make decisions, and guarantees that you have the best information available early game.
Of course, being plat, I'm rubbish at it, but it's very intuitive to me and it doesn't really give me the space to feel uncomfortable in the midgame, which perhaps is what you feel with the hatch first style. Check out the VOD if you can't take my word for it.
One problem I foresee, which doesn't apply at my level but probably at yours, is the size of the maps, meaning that defensive lings and spines and queens have more time to get set up. Still, the opponent has to defend and you can behave appropriately. Maybe TheRageNerd's version is better in this respect as he drones behind the initial pressure, whereas Machine said to get the bane nest up early with a view to continue pressure (if appropriate, or defend). Dont' know if machine still does this style, I'm pretty sure almost all pros hatch first these days and greed each other out.
Stardroid
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| Belial88 United States. September 17 2012 11:43. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
^ I'm not really comfortable with a 14/14 in zvz, that opener just leaves you so far behind economically against pool/hatch and hatch first. And I'm not really confused on openers in zvz.
Thanks for your input. I'm not sure if it really helps lol but thanks.
I know that mutas are a great way to play but I'm curious if fast third is a good way to play. It just seems you end up only even in econ/tech against any other opener after all is said in done. I know I've seen people end up far behind when going mutas, like they get rolled by the max roach/hydra/infestor push if the mutas are held well, but i dont really see it happen too often and not consistently by any particular midgame play.
you can't really just saturate your third against muta play before the muta player saturates their third, it seems. so what's the point of going fast third. |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
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| Belial88 United States. September 17 2012 11:47. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
On September 16 2012 19:22 Insoleet wrote:
Show nested quote +
- Fast third with queen and spores (macro war; depends on how much damage I can do)
yea. does it? I mean like, if someone goes mutas, into third, i think fast third can work (just drone up hard). But I have trouble when they've been mining gas for a long time or go quick mutas, and dont take the third right away but get lots of lings. You just dont really have a ground army if you drone up your third, and then like if they take a somewhat later third, like when spire is done, you just sort of have this situation where they can do a hard ling/muta attack and you are just sort of spread out. Looking at games I've lost when going fast third vs mutas, i think it's usually my fault I lost. But it just seems so hard to actually get a lead against muta play, most of the time I just come out even as we both basically drone up our thirds at the same time. I'm wondering if 2 base roach/infestor to third is a 'safer' or 'better' play. I don't really know. That's what's so confusing to me. How much of it is X play counters Y, and how much of it is just that I suck. At best, I can't really seem to get far ahead going fast third and defending the mutas, that you'd think you'd get. It's not like DTs or something where if you hold you just have this monumental lead. I hold the mutas with fast third, and it's just like oh okay the game is even.
During the WCS EU, Vortix vs Bly. Bly mass muta. 3 bases. Vortix stuck on 2 base for a long time, roach infestors and 9 queens. (yes, 9 QUEENS) Vortix is able to absolutely destroy Bly, http://www.twitch.tv/dreamhacktv/b/332247133 @ 4:57:00 Very cool game ! So it seems that the most efficient way to counter muta play is mass queens + infestors.
lol i dont think that game is really relevant to this discussion.
Bly did a 1 base mutalisk build because it was a game played on TDA, which, like 4 gate vs 4 gate pvp, is 14/14 ling/bane all-in vs 14/14 ling/bane all-in. Just a really weird game, like every game, on TDA. Bly had 4 mutas at 35 supply when his natural had just popped.
Then Vortix did a very well known, but extremely old fashioned, 2 base roach/queen/infestor all-in. Nowadays standard 2 base muta play would crush that all-in by base trading or getting enough mass roaches off 3 base and defend, but it worked very well because bly had done a 1 base all-in build (1 base muta).
I really don't think that game is relevant to the discussion. It was a cool game, thanks for posting it, but I don't think it's really relevant since it was a 1 base muta all-in, not a 2 base muta opener, and bly did an all-in, not an opener. No one goes 2 base roach/infestor/9 queen as a macro play... or a 1 base muta build.
That's tda for you. |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
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| Belial88 United States. September 17 2012 15:23. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
so in the vortix vs stephano finals, it seemed like every game, stephano went 2 base roach/infestor (roach warren, evo at ~60, third...eventually). Vortix went for a ling/infestor build on daybreak where he went third and lair at the same time, pretty interesting, it looked like stephano tried to hold by going super heavy hydras into broodlords but it just didnt seem to work out, barely (seemed like he would have died a lot harder if vortix simply re-rooted his spines to deal with the 5 roach counterattack at his third...).
no one really went fast third in either game, unless you count what vortix did on daybreak. i guess he kind of went fast third, it was an odd build. i think when people go ling/infestor they only take their third as a reaction to someone else taking a third, but i guess he knew stephanos style? im not really sure why he thought that would be safe. he sure made a ton of lings and not many drones at all though. |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
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