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| PepeTux Belgium. September 15 2012 03:25. Posts 7 | Profile # |
Hi,
As i'm new to Dota2 (never played dota before), i noticed how "hard" it is to learn the game.
I've played around 15hours by now, picking some recommended newbie heroes and some random ones.
The thing is, the hero list + item list is overwhelming at start.
So i was looking for some more efficient way to learn the game (limited in time  )
First thought:
order the heroes ingame by primary attribute (strength, int, ..) or role.
Pick a hero, read a little guide, look up a build and gogo, just play it.
Well that's not really efficient i think at the moment.
Second thought:
Find an excel sheet of the heroes, so i can order them by role, attributes, ...
That way i could more easily compare their stats, for example:
I would order by role "Carry", and then check the armor/HP pool/int/... for all the carries, by ordering some columns.
This is a bit like ingame, but i could filter more freely/quicker.
So the first real question is:
How do you handle this?
Just play? Are there some others that create some excel sheets?
Other ways to do it?
And the second question:
Once you've chosen a hero, you have to create a build for it.
How do you create a build?
Do you first spend points into its weaker stats?
Or you spend points first into its stronger stats?
Do you equip items to cover the heroes weak stats?
Or do you enforce the stronger stats first?
I guess this is more testing how you like to play the hero, then try to buy the most cost efficient item.
I know most of us just pick heroes and learn them (and this might even be the "efficient" way), but i'd like to hear about some other methods too.
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| skipgamer Australia. September 15 2012 04:01. Posts 560 | Profile Blog # |
The best way if you want to improve quickly is to watch a lot of games, read a lot of guides.
Then when you have the knowledge you should play the game and build up your mechanics/muscle-memory while putting in to practice what you have learnt from watching/reading.
Try not to focus on the heroes stats like armor/hp/int like you were saying. It's really irrelevant until you get more of a handle on the game as a whole.
As for creating a build, just experiment. Try a build you have read/seen/heard about, then next game with that hero, try something a bit different and see if that is better/worse. There is basically no #1 perfect way to play a hero (except for a few exceptions) and it can depend on how the game is going for you / your team, what other heroes are in your line-up, what role you are playing, etc...
As an analogy, a racing car driver doesn't spend hours worrying about how his car is set-up, until he has learnt how to race it.Last edit: 2012-09-15 04:05:57 |
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| Heh_ Singapore. September 15 2012 04:35. Posts 2245 | Profile Blog # |
I'm at work so I can't test this out right now, but I think grid view orders heroes by primary attribute. Press ctrl or click the 'grid view' button.
Reading guides are good at telling you at how to improve on a hero. However, learning a hero simply requires raw practice. Go play against bots to learn the mechanics: last hitting, minimap awareness, how to stop overextending etc.
Item builds: The recommended items, while sometimes crap, are pretty reliable most of the time. Use them until you have a deeper understanding of the game and heroes.
Skill builds: In general, max out your damage skills first, stuns/slows next (if not incorporated into your damage skills) passive skills last. Learn your ulti whenever you hit level 6/11/16, aka get a chance to. Get stats only when you can't get any other skills. Take note, some heroes may swap the order of skills for specific purposes, but it doesn't really matter at low levels; it's more important to get the hang of how to play rather than obsessing over minor details.
Finally, people who theorycraft extensively but practice rarely aren't very good at the game. So jump in, find a bot game and start practicing! |
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| Valon129 September 15 2012 05:09. Posts 45 | Profile # |
What i do is :
- Watch a shitload of stream/pro games/video guides/etc... = best way to improve knowledge. You almost don't improve your knowledge by only playing because you play with noob like you or with dumb people if you begin because you're low.
At some point i was actually writting down things i hear in videos to have some kind of Dota book or whatever, to have it ready when i need it.
You will also learn in commentaries or stuff like that why some guy do something or why he takes this item.
- Played a lot of bot games, i still play some from time to time to play a hero i'm very bad at or to try stuff.
- Random so you can play everything. At first i was picking heroes but right now i'm realizing it's not good because i always pick the same heroes if i have the choice so i try to random. I repick only if i get alchemist because i don't even want to know how to play him.
Tip 1 : You don't play a real game until you know every single spell in the game. And i don't mean exactly their dmg or CD but i mean when you see a hero you know what this guy can do. Same for items, at least know the most common ones.
Tip 2 : Again you're in the low pool most likely so don't ever listen to what other people in the game say to you only keep the knowledge from pros and good video tutorials. If you listen to bad players stuck with beginners after 500 games you'll only get awful habits.
Here you go, not a pro at all myself but that's how i try to learn.Last edit: 2012-09-15 05:11:54 |
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| 0mgVitaminE United States. September 15 2012 06:21. Posts 1244 | Profile # |
Play bot games or whatever to learn the most important things about all the heroes; their cc/damage are the most important. Basically learn who has a stun, a slow, a silence, and who will wreck you with damage if you engage on them. I don't really think you need to know every spell before you start playing, just the really important ones (Tidehunter's ult isn't something to learn about during an actual game). A lot of people say randoming to start is the fastest way, and maybe it is. I just picked whoever I thought was the coolest and played them until I knew the general flow of a game and where I fit in.
You might as well do whatever is the most fun, or you aren't going to keep playing the game. If you like randoming and learning a new hero every time, do it. If you don't, pick someone you like and play a lot of games with them. glglLast edit: 2012-09-15 06:22:10 |
| | Hi there. I'm in a cave, how bout you? |
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| kethers United States. September 15 2012 07:05. Posts 462 | Profile Blog # |
Coming from someone who has played close to 10 years of DotA, just play and play. Guides can help you with basics, but mechanics, last hitting, animation, and decision-making only comes through countless hours of practice and muscle memory.
The first hero I ever played with in DotA Allstars was Visage lol (not exactly the most noob friendly hero)
After that I played a lot of Sand King, Lion, and Vengeful Spirit. Not that it was easy, but branching out with heroes definitely helps you learn all the heroes, their skills, how to lane as, with, and against them.
:edit: I actually really dislike that people are advising new players to play against bots. If you are at all a generally competent gamer, you will realize how easy it is to defeat bots due to predictable AI. Then when you translate your tactics to a real game, you will more often than not fail. Another example are things that a newerl person might take for granted in bot games is couriers and wards. If you are dumped into a lower MM threshold, you most likely will not see constant warding, courier-buying, and chain-stunning as the bots display.Last edit: 2012-09-15 07:23:18 |
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| 13_Doomblaze_37 United States. September 15 2012 07:11. Posts 742 | Profile Blog # |
^ same as that guy. You have to play the game. You will suck for a very long time, but we all did its ok. One day you will learn how to play most heros properly
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| | Chill:I showed empathy by making Idra's nineteenth ban on Teamliquid a 2-day |
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| lhr0909 United States. September 15 2012 07:49. Posts 531 | Profile Blog # |
I am glad that I have two friends to play with and such. Pub games are super hard to get good because other people pick something bad (maybe you get all 5 carries on your team when you try to pick a carry).
I play a lot of starcraft 2 myself, but every now and then I will pop into dota 2 and start doing 10 min last hitting sessions. If you get your last hits well enough, you should not have a problem using most of the heroes, because you can farm. When you can farm, you have enough money to work with builds. That's almost equivalent as learning how to constantly make SCVs/Probes/Drones in SC2. If you get that mechanic down, you should be able to pick up the game very fast.
I don't get as motivated playing DotA 2 right now because every time I get on and play bad as a new hero I never played or as a carry, I get flamed a lot, and I hate that. I just hate people hating on their shitty teammates and give up the game. That's why I don't play as much DotA2 compared to SC2. |
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| Shunjal United States. September 15 2012 10:33. Posts 452 | Profile # |
dotacinema.com
dotafire.com
joindota.com
3 good resources to start. |
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| wcLLg United States. September 15 2012 12:34. Posts 189 | Profile # |
I think a combination of playing and figuring things out for yourself and watching pros play is the best way to learn, personally. For instance, I was playing Invoker and played mostly quas-wex and started playing exort without knowing what the 'pro' way to play was and it was a struggle. I leveled up too much exort, didn't get wex, only had one or two spells at my disposal and it was not a very good build (tho I managed to hit and kill my first sunstrike :D). I then watched Ferrari_430 in a pub game and realized the strength of his skill build that I still use to this day though I get different items.
So, for builds I think almost every possibility has been tried before and so the builds that linger around are the ones that just worked the best, and so copying a pro build won't be a bad decision--most often if you know why the pro goes for a particular build and why it works then it's good, but sometimes you learn these things with experience.
The items I now get on Invoker, for instance, came with experience from playing the hero and a combination of watching high level play. I thought to myself things like 'I have damage, but I don't have attack speed.' So treads was the first boot of choice I used. But, now I rush midas for the attack speed and farm/exp increase and phase so I can still run around like a fast wex-Invoker albeit much slower. After this, I get a Force Staff because it synergizes wonderfully; it increases attack speed even further, as well as mana pool and damage and it is perfect for chasing kills and running away from enemies. Who would figure out this perfect synergy but a pro like iG.Ferrari_430?
Upon seeing the build it makes perfect sense, but would a pub in match making ever stumble across it? Ofc not. So, if you want to be the best you got to watch the pros. But, knowledge will not come without experience. Therefore play to learn and watch the pros!Last edit: 2012-09-15 12:58:26 |
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| danl9rm United States. September 15 2012 14:45. Posts 2468 | Profile Blog # |
I'll tell you what I did, but I preface by saying that most people don't find it as helpful as I do.
I created a game (back in wc3 days) and read every single hero's skills, all of them, and made sure I understood each of them (as much as was possible). I then read every single item you could buy, the cost, where it was located, what it did, etc.
Then, I played. Couple games later, in a random pub in wc3, I went 18-1 with bloodseeker, hah. He was the hero that most appealed to me after reading all the skills, and funny enough, several years later, he's still one of my go-to fun heroes. |
| | "Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one." |
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| skipgamer Australia. September 16 2012 03:49. Posts 560 | Profile Blog # |
On September 15 2012 14:45 danl9rm wrote:
I created a game (back in wc3 days) and read every single hero's skills, all of them, and made sure I understood each of them (as much as was possible). I then read every single item you could buy, the cost, where it was located, what it did, etc.
Haha yeah, I used to play pre-AI-map days with 56k (we were slow to get adsl  ) so there was no point playing online. I went through every single hero solo against creeps I can't remember how many times just to learn them all. Well, learning heroes back then didn't mean what it does now, and they changed so much version to version, especially those chinese versions with invalid tooltips...
It's amazing the game is what it is today really.
That being said, I always liked 3corr more (I've always missed the mini-games while dead that made you respawn quicker).
To Ankh or not to Ankh, that is(was) the question.Last edit: 2012-09-16 04:03:24 |
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| saltywaffles United States. September 16 2012 15:02. Posts 85 | Profile Blog # |
| To be honest with you, I never read guides or watches streams or replays/vods when I was really good at dota. I still am pretty decent but not the level I was at before. It takes games. Mass games. I have plays well over 3000 games of dota since I started. Sure you can watch streams and vods. But every game is different and so it's just a good idea to find a base build for a champion or role that you like to play then buy iTems that are suited for your game. Just ask yourself would this item help me in team fights. Or would this item help my team in fights if you aren't tha carry or semi carry. Last edit: 2012-09-16 15:08:53 |
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| PepeTux Belgium. September 17 2012 04:12. Posts 7 | Profile # |
Well yeah, that's at the moment how i'm doing it.
I changed 1 thing -> from completely bot game to co-op bot game.
Ofcourse, i still only use recommended items.
Too much to know every item..i'm no student anymore, i keep forgetting everything |
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| JeeJee Canada. September 17 2012 06:16. Posts 5353 | Profile Blog # |
For creating builds..
For skills, look at what is effective at which time. There are some skills that become more effective as time goes on (they "scale well") and some that become less effective.
You could either scale the early-game skills early.. or not at all.
Also, the first point for many skills is often much better than the 2nd/3rd/4th points.
Just look at the impact of each skill
Here's an example of my thought process
For example, rhasta -- his lightning is static damage -- only good early. So I normally get this early or not at all.
His disables will be always good, and will be better as time goes on. As every hero gets better, disables get better.
His shackles, level 1 gives you 2.5 disable, but every additional level only gives you 0.75 extra. So the first point in shackles is really good. His level 1 hex gives you 1.25s, and every additional level gives you 0.75s. So the scaling is similar to shackles, except hex is better because it's not channeled.
His ult is static damage, so get this early (6/11/16)
So with these pieces of info, we can think of some builds --
a 4/1/1/1 build by 7, getting 4/4/1/2 by 11 -- focusing on early lightning with maxing out hex, with one point in shackles. This is my preferred build.
We have a 0/4/4/1 by 9 build, focusing on disables, ignoring the lightning.
And a 0/4/1/1+stats by 9 build, focusing on disables, but instead of further shackles, we get stats (maybe if we are level starved or otherwise struggling)
For items, you could either cover your weaknesses or focus on your strengths. Just think of what you need to accomplish, what's stopping you, and what will help you. e.g. rhasta has great disables but short cast range and low hp with low ms -- so he can't just walk up and disable. Blink would let you do that so you tend to see blink-hex'ing rhastas. His skills cost a lot of mana, so mana boots would help you with that.
e: Or you could just copy pro gamers and not think about it too much.Last edit: 2012-09-17 06:24:13 |
| (\o/) If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
/_\ aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺) |
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| Pax United States. September 17 2012 08:12. Posts 143 | Profile # |
On September 17 2012 06:16 JeeJee wrote:
For example, rhasta -- his lightning is static damage -- only good early. So I normally get this early or not at all.
His disables will be always good, and will be better as time goes on. As every hero gets better, disables get better.
His shackles, level 1 gives you 2.5 disable, but every additional level only gives you 0.75 extra. So the first point in shackles is really good. His level 1 hex gives you 1.25s, and every additional level gives you 0.75s. So the scaling is similar to shackles, except hex is better because it's not channeled.
His ult is static damage, so get this early (6/11/16)
Not to mention shackles' mana cost increases prohibitively with each subsequent level, so even if it scaled really well compared to hex, you wouldn't want to level it past 1 until you have a larger mana pool and better mana regen. |
| | "Mankind censure injustice fearing that they may be the victims of it, and not because they shrink from committing it." -Plato |
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| Zariel Australia. September 17 2012 10:34. Posts 969 | Profile Blog # |
As you get better in dota, you realise that you should never need to follow a build. You should always analyse the situation and adapt to what your team needs.
Example: Your Bone Clinks and your target is to snipe out the Lion. Your going to need an Orchid for that job.
As for the Rhasta discussion, you should not need more than level 2 hex and shackles until you've increased your base mana pool somehow. It also depends on the amount you've farmed, how many deaths you've ate and what your team needs. If your having to constantly buy dust + wards, then you won't be aiming for expensive items too soon and you won't be able to level your skills as freely as you wish because of less items invested into mana. |
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| Heh_ Singapore. September 17 2012 11:15. Posts 2245 | Profile Blog # |
On September 17 2012 10:34 Zariel wrote:
As you get better in dota, you realise that you should never need to follow a build. You should always analyse the situation and adapt to what your team needs.
Example: Your Bone Clinks and your target is to snipe out the Lion. Your going to need an Orchid for that job.
As for the Rhasta discussion, you should not need more than level 2 hex and shackles until you've increased your base mana pool somehow. It also depends on the amount you've farmed, how many deaths you've ate and what your team needs. If your having to constantly buy dust + wards, then you won't be aiming for expensive items too soon and you won't be able to level your skills as freely as you wish because of less items invested into mana.
You could have used a better example... clinkz gets orchid as a main item in most games anyway.
A better example would be you're playing a support (like dazzle), and have cash on hand. If you're facing ursa, PA and TA, get a ghost scepter. If you're facing nukers like QoP and lina, get a pipe.
But still bad advice when learning. You'll learn how to execute builds properly with practice. At the beginning, stick to a build so you don't fuck up and get crazy items because you thought it might have been useful. |
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| Tryxtira Sweden. September 27 2012 18:26. Posts 469 | Profile # |
| Even though the thread is full of good replies with which I agree with most. I'm curious. Would you advice new SC2-players to create their own builds? I don't think so. I'd say, screw itembuilds in the beginning, just go with recommended (they're mostly okay). Learn the heroes and their spells, you'll eventually start thinking: "Woah, I dont want that recommended item now, I could really use item X right now." |
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| KTy September 27 2012 19:50. Posts 12 | Profile # |
For those who understand Chinese watching 2009's videos where he explain his play is very useful. Even though the videos are for Dota 1 but the ideas behind what he does with every hero is the same. He goes through his thought process of why he picks certain starting items and the different options of start items that are viable. He also explains why where and how he attacks and think of the game in certain situation.
You can find his videos by searching "09dota" on youtube |
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