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| MrCon France. September 19 2012 19:21. Posts 20321 | Profile # |
On September 19 2012 12:24 Chimpalimp wrote:
Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 12:09 Cove wrote:
It's hard to tell if all this team and player shuffling and disbandment is simply because it's the start of a new major cycle in the Dota 2 world or if the root cause is similar to the problems inherent in LoL teams as well -- that players tend to lack the professional attitude of a serious esports organization.
MOBA players have yet to leave a lasting positive impression. I hope Dota 2 doesn't have the same problem after all this initial reorganization.
As puppey noted in talkDota, it is fairly common for team restructuring after a large cycle in just about any inherently team-based game (CS, DOTA, etc.). The managers don't think the team is right, and maybe the players are getting a little on each others nerves, so they do an overhall, its common. It hasn't, and likely won't happen, to teams like Navi because they kicked ass, and they have played with each other for a long ass time, so they are used to one another.
Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 09:24 MrCon wrote:
On September 19 2012 08:50 Chimpalimp wrote:
On September 19 2012 05:01 Midas_ wrote:
I have the feeling mTw is too focused on Synderen. He rebuilt mTw several times, made a lot of roster changes.
They had some success at the beginning, but after a success they always dropped into a slump.
The solution always was the same: Drop most of the team - exept SyndereN
I remember mTw dropping Kuronity, pepp3 and Mattrim shortly after they won Dreamhack Winter. (which was a HUGE success for them) Then picked up Tulex, Grunt and Bentzer but it didn't work out at all. Then they picked up the French guys + Kebap, won another tournament and performed really bad again. (In my opinion Sockshka and Fuckingmad always performed the best and most stable.)
I really don't know if it will work out. It seems Synderen is the "Mastermind" behind the team but he is too impatient in solving problems with the team - especially when results go bad. Instead he chooses the easy path and starts from scratch.
Nevertheless I wish him good luck with his next attempt.
I think Midas_ had the partial golden touch with this comment. Synd is not only a very popular person in the dota community, but his best traits are his superb communication skills and strong sense of leadership. When you are talking to mTw management, it's a lot easier to win them over if you can talk the talk, instead of being just another average gamer. Synd knows how to talk professionally, plus he has a long history with the company. I think he just knows how to butter up the management to do as he likes, so he gets away with wiping an entire team again and again, instead of just having him kicked out of the team, I mean this isn't the first time this has happened... As such, I think people need to get off the French guys backs, they didn't play poorly, they just didn't know how to convince the management to their side. The french trio were fairly consistent and good at doing what mTw dota does best, carefully calculated slow progression towards victory. Don't get me wrong, Synd is a fairly good captain and a powerful figure in dota, but I think he may be more demanding than most Dota 2 players can tolerate. Best of luck to them all.
But, the team started to fall apart as soon as Synd wasn't the real captain anymore and when the "3 frenchmen" started to do the captaining, to decide to switch roles and to basically stop listening to Synd. What makes me angry in this is that everything worked perfectly, and suddenly the players decide it's time to change everything, how dumb is that. They went from untouchable to another mediocre team, that's such a waste. They can say what they want about Synd mid for instance, when he wasn't mid it was catastrophic.
As I said earlier, Synd is a good captain, better than any of the Frenchmen, but that doesn't mean the team fell apart because the other guys couldn't house their own leadership. The frenchmen wouldn't have wanted new leadership if they felt satisfied with the way things were going. mTw was not playing bad by any means prior to TI2, the just won DreamHack and took first in the TI2 qualifier. There is little likelihood that the Frenchmen thought Synd couldn't perform his duty well, because he sure as hell could. The only logic explanation imo, was that they weren't getting along; and I am decently certain the reason was Synd's demanding behavior, in addition to most of the team members being young and inexperienced in long term team management. If you've watched Synd's stream when he plays with his teammates you will see what I'm referring to, he is a very critical guy, and it gets on people's nerves at times. I am just like Synd in that manner, I am fairly critical, so i've noticed in team environments people tend to get more antsy and mad than usual when you behave in such a way. Overall, I think the whole situation was caused not by performance, but rather a bunch of young guys not knowing how to manage a team properly.
You kidding, mTw was playing terribly before TI2. After DH they had one or 2 weeks of invincibility, then they started to lose horribly against everyone, I found this post that relate to this well
http://forum.gamesports.net/dota/showthread.php?8252-What-is-happening-to-mTw&highlight=happening
In this thread, everyone is saying that OP is overreacting, that they're just "trying new things", but what we now know put all that in perspective.
About the rest of your post 100% agree.Last edit: 2012-09-19 19:49:09 |
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| Elizar Germany. September 20 2012 03:31. Posts 134 | Profile # |
I´m just happy for Synd. He´s what I always connect to if I hear mtw dota2.
Now get some great players and win again! GL! |
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| Horse...falcon United States. September 20 2012 04:53. Posts 1733 | Profile # |
Were the 4 players lacking in individual talent? How do you gauge an individual's talent level in Dota anyway?
Does it have to do with reaction time? Awareness? Multi-tasking? Mechanics?
What separates stars like Dendi and Ferrari from other pros?
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| | Artosis: "From horsssse....falcon" |
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| Yoshi- Germany. September 20 2012 04:56. Posts 3999 | Profile # |
I mean you could read the op and find out that
The team is splitting up completely. It is a mutual desire for all players to not continue in the same team—it became increasingly apparent during the last many weeks leading to The International 2 that our team would not last because of interpersonal issues, lack of trust and focus.
and that it wasn't a "skill" thing.Last edit: 2012-09-20 04:57:16 |
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| theslayer922 Canada. September 20 2012 05:28. Posts 273 | Profile Blog # |
| I'm really happy for this change, Synderen is an awesome guy/player. Hopefully this change will get MTW some results. |
| | Lee Jae Dong and Song Byung Goo for life | |
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 get in there United Kingdom. September 20 2012 06:34. Posts 66 | Profile # |
| shit, i thought about dimaga and supernova! |
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| Aulisemia United States. September 20 2012 11:05. Posts 111 | Profile # |
| This is why I don't get DOTA. Entire teams completely rebooting, how the heck do you gain a fan base for anyone? Not to mention the fact that it always seems to be because of team drama, players not acting properly, bad manner, etc. Just comes across really odd from SC2 land. Last edit: 2012-09-20 11:06:14 |
| | The ponciest ponce that ever ponced past a poncing palour. |
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| TapetalKarma United States. September 20 2012 12:02. Posts 117 | Profile # | |
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| Haydin United States. September 20 2012 12:31. Posts 1445 | Profile # |
On September 20 2012 11:05 Aulisemia wrote:
This is why I don't get DOTA. Entire teams completely rebooting, how the heck do you gain a fan base for anyone? Not to mention the fact that it always seems to be because of team drama, players not acting properly, bad manner, etc. Just comes across really odd from SC2 land.
That's just how team games work. Finding a stable squad of 5 that works and continues to work can be very tricky. Just because you have 5 talented players does not mean they'll do well.
They have to really gel as a squad and operate in perfect harmony in the space of split seconds where they cannot possibly communicate with each other. DOTA is a game that hinges on decision making even more (imo) than SC2. And to do that with five people can make things very, very tricky. But when you do, well, you get things like this:
+ Show Spoiler +
And the explanation for everything that happened there:
+ Show Spoiler +If any abilities, heroes, or items are not clear to you just ask or look them up on the dota 2 wiki: Naga siren came in and ulted - this stuns pretty much the entire team for a long duration, but makes them immune to damage or debuffs. Dark Seer used Vacuum to suck everyone on Na'Vi (except Juggernaut) in and set up the follow-up - using tidehunter's ravage to stun everyone for 2 seconds, and use lina's stun for ANOTHER couple seconds. This will all be happening as Na'Vi's team is getting their face beat in by Naga Siren and her illusions, as well as a number of AOE spells from the rest of iG - the result would be a thousand to two thousand damage on each member of navi really, REALLY fast. Ferrari430, on Puck, uses his illusory orb ability to teleport himself in and attempts to silence Na'Vi at the moment Naga's ult ends - this means that even if enigma used his BKB(Black King Bar) and went spell immune, the rest of the Na'Vi squad would be unable to follow up Enigma's Black Hole ultimate. Puck could then follow up for even more damage and use Dream Coil to ensure no one on Navi could possibly escape. Lightofheaven, on enigma, gets his BKB off immediately, before the ravage's cast animation finishes and he is stunned. Juggernaut is also able to use his blade fury and go spell immune - this allows both him and enigma to avoid the ravage. In that SAME split second, Dendi, on Rubick force staffs to get out of the ravage AOE. Ferrari430 is just the tiniest of a fraction of a second too late, and his silence does not go off before Enigma's Black Hole goes off - at this point you have most of iG caught in a 4 second stun from the black hole, Juggernaut spinning around doing AOE damage, and dendi non stunned and nearby. Lina is able to get her stun off - but since dendi is out of there and juggernaut and enigma are spell immune, she only catches two. Dendi uses Rubick's ult to steal tidehunter's ravage ability, and goes back in. While he does this he uses telekensis to lift up lina and prevent her from using nukes on anyone after her initial stun. As black hole only has a second or so left, Dendi lets off ravage. iG's squad takes a ton of damage and are stunned for even longer. The combined damage of juggernaut, the stolen ravage, a follow-up fade bolt from dendi, black hole, and an ether shock from the now free-from-stun shadow shaman has killed everyone on iG, bar lina who is JUST coming down from Dendi's telekinesis. Navi converges 5v1 on Lina, cleaning up the last of iG. They have just not only survived one of the most unbelievably powerful wombo-combos you can have in DOTA 2, but have totally reversed it and wiped iG without a single loss. The entire squad worked in absolutely perfect concert with one another to do all of this in mere seconds, when a thousanth of a second timing off from any one of them could have spelled absolute disaster for Navi. Dendi is apparently standing up and screaming "LIE DOWN" in Russian as the play concludes. This play has pretty much given Navi a HUGE advantage in game 2 of the bo3 winner's bracket finals after having lost game 1 in a mere 17 minutes. They proceeded to take this game, the following game, and advance to the grand finals to play for one million dollars and defend their title of the #1 dota team in the world. Oh, and Navi's courier flew over iG as they were coming in - it got hit by puck once but was microed away to saftey by someone on Na'Vi instantly, and delivered its item after "the play" was complete. They even saved the damn courier
And now, that same clip in real time:
+ Show Spoiler +
That whole thing, from start to finish, took place over only ten seconds.Last edit: 2012-09-20 12:38:22 |
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 TheEmulator Canada. September 20 2012 14:42. Posts 4944 | Profile Blog # |
Poor synderen. All alone 
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| | Tiffany/KMK/Hyori/IU/Flash #1 | Sunny Hill/Epik High/Rainbow/Davichi!!! @TheEmulatorTL | |
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| teapoted Sweden. September 20 2012 16:51. Posts 4937 | Profile # |
On September 20 2012 11:05 Aulisemia wrote:
This is why I don't get DOTA. Entire teams completely rebooting, how the heck do you gain a fan base for anyone? Not to mention the fact that it always seems to be because of team drama, players not acting properly, bad manner, etc. Just comes across really odd from SC2 land.
Well maybe you should actually know what you're talking about before you make judgements. Always because of team drama? Please, SC2 is filled with more pointless drama than Dota is. The vast majority of roster changes/drops are because the teams can't compete on a high enough level.
Stop comparing team games to 1v1's. If Taeja couldn't win a tournament because of Tyler's poor performance then there would be quite a lot of roster changes in SC as well.
And how do you gain a fan base? Easy, through your players. mTw has lost very few fans as most people regard them as "syndereN's" team. They could add on 4 no-names and it wouldn't change the public perception of them much, or they could add on 4 big names and they'd have a much bigger fan base.Last edit: 2012-09-20 17:00:07 |
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| herry456 United States. September 20 2012 16:52. Posts 1 | Profile # |
jk
User was warned for this post |
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| heartie September 20 2012 20:13. Posts 6 | Profile # |
On September 19 2012 03:50 Lucumo wrote:
Great news, hopefully Black will join mTw.
Black is a great player. But with 0 reliability. |
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| Ganfei2 September 21 2012 04:00. Posts 369 | Profile Blog # |
Good move. mtw completely toxic. All the players banding together to blame Synderen for everything bad when he was without a doubt the only reason they had their spree of wins. His drafting/captaincy was what won them games. Then they all group up against Synderen because that's human pack mentality and make fuckingmad the captain for TI2...and then you get horrendously bad drafts and 0 teamwork like what you saw.
Most especially Kebap, the most whiney and annoying person ever. Been vocally trashtalking his own teammates for ages. Thinks he's the best player alive. I can't even begin to imagine what having him on a team at a tournament like TI2 would be like, probably the most demoralizing shit possible. Not to mention letting him play ANYTHING other than chen/enchantress is just begging to lose; I don't know if you noticed but every single non-jungle role he played at TI2 he was atrocious at, and Synderen always made sure to draft a jungler for him, but I guess fuckingmad didn't get that memo.
Synderen the only player deserving of the mtw contract from a personality/professionalism point of view. Shockska or whatever, fuckingmad, kebap, and funzii are decent players but their attitudes are disgusting. There's a reason that a team that decided to shit on its captain, replace him, argue nonstop, and be assholes to one another went 3-12 or whatever it was and won nothing. Synderen may not be the best player ever but he's good enough to compete, he's beyond competent, professional, and nice, and he doesn't deserve to be on a team with those assholes.
edit: Just want to say I'm not talking out of my ass. I'm friends with "certain" people who have to listen to those clowns whine day in and day out about Synderen. Kebap has been shittalking Synd behind Synd's back for like 6 months now. When I first heard it I was really surprised that Kebap thought Synd was the worst on the team because I'm pretty sure anyone with any skill can easily see Kebap is by far the least skilled on the old mtw squad. He has next to no versatility and huge ego problems.Last edit: 2012-09-21 04:04:55 |
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| Kjellis Sweden. September 21 2012 09:21. Posts 4 | Profile # |
I don't get this 'Synderen being too demanding' talk. A captain should tell everyone what went good and bad, if you can't handle suck critique you're a f**king child. And how will you improve if noone tells you such things.
Synderen was obviously the only reason for mTw's success, through great drafting.
Though Synderen should probably take on a support role. Not only because he's the captain, but he isn't the 'best' player.
I hope he will come back with a great team and if he and Loda join forces, I will be + Show Spoiler +Last edit: 2012-09-21 09:22:42 |
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| HeeroFX United States. September 22 2012 11:15. Posts 1914 | Profile Blog # |
| Is it normal for teams to to restructure so much? I am pretty new to this genre of esports. |
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| Implenia Austria. September 22 2012 18:32. Posts 1972 | Profile # |
On September 22 2012 11:15 HeeroFX wrote:
Is it normal for teams to to restructure so much? I am pretty new to this genre of esports.
Usually it changes over a longer periode of time, but due to the international 2, teams were busy. Now basically the transfer period started until the next season starts (nowish).
It is pretty normal for any teamsport. Since you need 5 people for team you see more change than in sc2. |
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| levelnoobz France. September 22 2012 19:55. Posts 137 | Profile # |
| Maybe one day, he'll get actually good players in his team and will start kicking ass. But as long as he plays with mediocre players with such amateur behavior, he wil keep being the guy everyone likes but who can't reall manage to do anything. |
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| Martijn Netherlands. September 22 2012 20:00. Posts 1096 | Profile Blog # |
| As much as this makes it look like the whole scene is a bit of a mess, please keep in mind that this shows how well the lockout actually worked. Imagine if we had all these team changes during the season like you see with some games, it'd bite. I'm sure for the players involved, it forced them to bite their lip more than once, but I'm all for seasonal lockouts for teams like this, as long as there is an offseason where new talent can shine. |
| | http://www.glhf.tv fighting! WesternWolves & LowLandLions progaming teams. |
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| Mindtwist Lithuania. September 23 2012 17:35. Posts 104 | Profile # |
| Wow, apparently there was a lot I didn't knew about mTw. I always saw Synd as a great and professsional captain. Bizarre that other players rebelled against him. Time for some changes I guess. Good luck, Synd. |
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