Hi guys, I just played a PvZ that I thought was phsyically impossible for me to lose, but I just can't counter mass Muta.
Personally I think if you don't kill zerg before they start getting mutas mutas are completely, but that is irrelevant because I doubt blizzard is going to do anything to change that.
Here is the replay [http://drop.sc/255825]
I think i was behind on armor upgrades and near the end i had so much gas but couldn't get high templars out because he kept sniping my tech. I also think i should of gone straight through his spines at the end.
Other than that I really can not comprehend why i lost this game, so can someone PLEASE tell me what I did wrong, and what I can do better because I can almost never beat mass muta.
This will be closed soon. You can fix this issue and deal with mutas with proper defence with stalkers alone. They are not overpowered, you threw your lead because he snuck in and did good damage.
EDIT: but to answer your questions, archons make it nearly impossible to engage your army by mutas. Pheonix if you scout it early enough with range will eventually shut it down. It's really about making sure mutas do no damage to you directly, and minimal indirectly.
Last edit: 2012-09-20 16:00:03
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shihido Singapore. September 20 2012 16:26. Posts 29
On September 20 2012 15:57 iiGreetings wrote: This will be closed soon. You can fix this issue and deal with mutas with proper defence with stalkers alone. They are not overpowered, you threw your lead because he snuck in and did good damage.
EDIT: but to answer your questions, archons make it nearly impossible to engage your army by mutas. Pheonix if you scout it early enough with range will eventually shut it down. It's really about making sure mutas do no damage to you directly, and minimal indirectly.
So true. Defending against Mutas is not an impossible strategy.
If you can prevent damage to your economy, pretty much any toss army that shoots up can take down mutas. Just mass up and counter attack his base or just plant 2 archons around each of your mineral line.
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usNEUX United States. September 20 2012 16:29. Posts 76
Blindly counterattacking after mutas arrive at your base will likely result in a flood of lings being in your base as well. All of a sudden you're in a base race situation that you pretty much can't win vs any halfway decent zerg player. If I see protoss abandon his base, I send drones all over the map to make extractors/ninja hatcheries and just dance around his army.
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MateShade Australia. September 20 2012 16:31. Posts 708
Thank you for your input. I have actually read that thread but in this post I was asking what I did wrong in a specific game so yeah Otherwise I apologies for QQing over balance in my opening post it is just such a frustrating style to deal with and after losing a 30 minute game i should of won you can imagine my frustration. I think i'm going to try double stargate as soon i think he is going mutas.
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MateShade Australia. September 20 2012 16:47. Posts 708
Thank you for your input. I have actually read that thread but in this post I was asking what I did wrong in a specific game so yeah Otherwise I apologies for QQing over balance in my opening post it is just such a frustrating style to deal with and after losing a 30 minute game i should of won you can imagine my frustration. I think i'm going to try double stargate as soon i think he is going mutas.
If it frustrates you enough that you think pheonix is your best answer, have you had much experience with a single stargate pvz? if you keep your first 3-5 pheonix alive there will be plenty of time to throw a second stargate down. Stargate openers also discourage muta play from zerg players.
Zrana United Kingdom. September 20 2012 16:56. Posts 682
Thank you for your input. I have actually read that thread but in this post I was asking what I did wrong in a specific game so yeah Otherwise I apologies for QQing over balance in my opening post it is just such a frustrating style to deal with and after losing a 30 minute game i should of won you can imagine my frustration. I think i'm going to try double stargate as soon i think he is going mutas.
If it frustrates you enough that you think pheonix is your best answer, have you had much experience with a single stargate pvz? if you keep your first 3-5 pheonix alive there will be plenty of time to throw a second stargate down. Stargate openers also discourage muta play from zerg players.
I have to disagree here, mutas work pretty nicely vs stargate openers, as the rest of your tech and army is quite delayed which simply puts zerg in a better economic position with regards to racking up the muta numbers quickly and not having to worry about any ground attack from you any time soon. Phoenix i think are quite hard to balance how many you want vs a muta-ing player; too many and you can be caught offguard by a tech switch to infestors or corruptors, too few and he can kill your phoenixes with his mutas.
A much better option is blink stalker into archon and/or storm. Also a fuckton of cannons will help tremendously.
monk United States. September 20 2012 17:07. Posts 6993
There will be an update to rsvp's guide soon. But meanwhile, single stargate phoenix with the range upgrade does work, as shown by both Hero and MC repeatedly. A double stargate has also been used by both Puzzle vs Lowely in the NASL and Sase vs Leenock at MLG. I wouldn't generally recommended it though.
But this isn't the thread to argue about the best way to deal with mutalisks. Watch his replay and comment on what mistakes he did.
@TL_monk
virtu United Kingdom. September 20 2012 17:28. Posts 144
The key is to take zero or as little economic damage as possible, whilst going robo tech. I find that if you can do this it's pretty much a won game, it's infintely easier as a protoss player to beat a muta/ling/bane/brood army straight up than a roach/infestor/brood army. if you can macro up to 3 bases with upgrades whilst not taking eco damage to mutas, you'll win outright. PvZ i open FFE into 4 gate robo, start with 6 sentries and 6 zealots and an obs, send obs directly to their base.
Your obs should arrive as spire starts/is less than half way done. Spire or no spire (**EDIT**: If a spire IS going up, 2 pylons and 2 cannons at each mineral line asap.), add 2 more gates and a twilight council, and produce immortals/stalkers, get blink and get ready to take your 3rd.
With the army you have and decent forcefields you're strong enough to hold a 3rd base against muta/ling, roach/ling or roach/ling and a few infestors. from here add a robo bay, 2 gates and a forge or 4 more gates (if you want more units), and start teching to mothership/ht's. add a 4th around 180 supply.
At this point you can do a multitude of things, if he still has a large muta count then warp prism zealot harass is out of the question, i recommend just continuing to turtle, making sure you have the vortex available for broods when you move out. keep spamming upgrades, archons etc, and use excess minerals for more cannons.
With decent FF's for the banelings, and colossus to slaughter the lings and broodlings and a half decent archon toilet you should roll the engagement if he doesn't base trade. if he does, you should have enough cannons and bases that you can warp in at home as you lose bits of your main army (to spines/reinforcements), to whittle down his numbers. Then you can either fully return home (after taking out his tech), just send your stalkers home, or continue to base race if you aren't losing your stuff too fast.
From someone who used to have serious troubles vs mutas, to feeling the most comfortable in PvZ when my opponent opens mutas, it'll get better once you learn to deal with it properly. Oh one last thing, if they're a smart player and open mutas they will spread their bases around the map, so be careful if you take out their main but lose a lot at home - you may not be as ahead as you think. Keep active with observers (this goes for all games/matchups!).
Hope this helps.
Last edit: 2012-09-20 19:24:10
Bahajinbo Germany. September 20 2012 19:45. Posts 385
Since I do the CreatorPrime-PvZ style (Day[9] Daily #481), I just laugh when I see Mutalisks. I open up with a FFE, get 4 Gates, Twilight & Robo and first get around 6-8 Sentrys. After that, I start Blink and get plenty of Stalkers. If I scout a Spire or suppose Mutalisks incoming (many Spines on 2 Base, ...), I start to spread Cannons around the mineral lines and immediately take a 3rd, more Gates and a Templar Archives.
Now, the most important thing to stop Mutalisks: Patience. Your Blink Stalkers should be ready to get to your mineral lines anytime, try to spread High Templars around your bases with Storm and expand even more. If you get some decent storms that hit the Mutalisks you have a good chance to fight him. But don't do the mistake to lose your patience and just attack him, in most cases he has many Lings, Banelings and spines and can reinforce with his Mutalisks quickly due to their speed.
Another thing is to use your Robo for mass Observers. You won't need Immortals for some time, so spread Observers. Thus you can instantly react with your Blink Stalkers or High Templars to get some free Mutalisk kills.
If you can expand freely, defended well and built up a decent army, you can attack. But I don't ever try to attack without a Mothership and mass Archons / Blink Stalkers + mass Cannons in my mineral lines.
Btw: What helped me a lot, was the recent Game between Seed & Life in IPTL.
Last edit: 2012-09-20 19:47:58
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Belial88 United States. September 20 2012 22:32. Posts 5217
On September 20 2012 17:07 monk. wrote: Tag your posts and cut the balance whine.
There will be an update to rsvp's guide soon. But meanwhile, single stargate phoenix with the range upgrade does work, as shown by both Hero and MC repeatedly. A double stargate has also been used by both Puzzle vs Lowely in the NASL and Sase vs Leenock at MLG. I wouldn't generally recommended it though.
But this isn't the thread to argue about the best way to deal with mutalisks. Watch his replay and comment on what mistakes he did.
Can you link these games? The times I've seen Hero and MC use single stargate with range, they had a huge lead on the game already and already a very large stalker count.
I also thought most people would say the phoenix range upgrade is useless. Stephano said something along the lines of "if Toss gets phoenix range and kills all my mutas (ie white ra vs stephano tda) then I know I've won because they just invested so much into useless phoenixes allowng me to go infestors, bl for free".
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monk United States. September 20 2012 22:38. Posts 6993
On September 20 2012 17:07 monk. wrote: Tag your posts and cut the balance whine.
There will be an update to rsvp's guide soon. But meanwhile, single stargate phoenix with the range upgrade does work, as shown by both Hero and MC repeatedly. A double stargate has also been used by both Puzzle vs Lowely in the NASL and Sase vs Leenock at MLG. I wouldn't generally recommended it though.
But this isn't the thread to argue about the best way to deal with mutalisks. Watch his replay and comment on what mistakes he did.
Can you link these games? The times I've seen Hero and MC use single stargate with range, they had a huge lead on the game already and already a very large stalker count.
Don't have the exact links, but I'm sure you can find these games with a bit of searching and tlpd.
Hero vs Curious on Metropolis from GSL MC vs Stephano on Entombed Valley? from IPL Challenge Hero vs Stephano on Entombed Valley from EGMC
I also thought most people would say the phoenix range upgrade is useless. Stephano said something along the lines of "if Toss gets phoenix range and kills all my mutas (ie white ra vs stephano tda) then I know I've won because they just invested so much into useless phoenixes allowng me to go infestors, bl for free".
This quote was from around 2-3 day after the phoenix patch was released. A solid phoenix build transition wasn't really fully fleshed out until 1-3 months after.
@TL_monk
Skiblet South Africa. September 20 2012 22:53. Posts 195
Thanks everyone for the advice I am excited to try it out ingame One of the mistakes i was making was indeed losing my cool and just attacking the zerg on 3 base which was just silly
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Belial88 United States. September 20 2012 22:32. Posts 5217
