I could not find any guide to this in liquipedia, nor any recent topics in this forum about this. I moved to an area with poor internet and hence moved back to broodwar from sc2. So I played this game (and I will not include rep because this is a general question) and got beaten by a one-base protoss (I play zerg).
Once upon a time, one-base protoss was the standard and not FE. How did zerg deal with it? I know it is a bad idea to go for 3 hatch, got to stick to 2. And probably 12 hatch 12 pool is a good basic start.I also know there are many strats for a one-base protoss. I will try to list them and would like you fine experienced players to come up with good counters.
- One base zealot push (guess 3-4 gates, maybe with speed). - One base crossair / zealot, or crossair /dt's. - One base reaver / goon.
And I am most interested in general thinking when dealing with a one-basing protoss (hydra or mutas, when go upgrades, how many drones etc)
- Xiphias
MyTHicaL Canada. September 21 2012 19:29. Posts 671
You should just watch all pvz VODs pre-bisu (if it wasn't him who popularised the FE in pvz then I'm going to look stupid ).
The builds you describe are pretty silly as well. Basically you should be on 2 base to his 1, scout correctly and counter to win. Only 2 gate pressure into FE or tech should cause you any kind of problem.... There must be thousands of VODs to help you out, use the database!
You can 3 hatch or even 4 hatch if you want. Most of the time you'll wanna stay on 2base, but sauron style is basically staying on hatchery tech and taking more than 2 so it's not invalid ;p Just need to be really carefull about playing defensive and protecting those bases.
Don't skimp on lings, deny his scouting, and sacrifice an overlord to find out what tech he is going. There's no easy way or counter to beating one base toss, it is a legit strat, but it's easier for toss to lose a game because his rebo drop does nothing and gets killed, or he goes dt corsair and takes too long to deal with lurker tech since he has no observers...
One thing you don't really wanna do yourself is drops. On one base he is going to be ready ;p Maybe a lurker drop, but don't drop like 12 hydras in his base thinking he's going to be overwhelmed. Usually one base toss is really dependent on getting good storms with just a small small number of high templar, so your rewards for picking them off are immense. It's hard for them to really have the gas to deal with muta tech, so you might see them get an archon and a cannon. If he goes lots of corsairs, then his templar tech is hurting and it's likewise hard for him to deal with hydra ling.
Carapace upgrade is still important, you need to keep up with his +1. Overlord speed is still good. You can really play whatever your style is, just make sure you're aware of his early game aggressive potential. Make those first 8 lings so you don't die to like 3 zealots and 2 probes (you'll need to build more lings to defend that, but better to have some already than to start from 0).
This is presuming it's a true one base and not just a zealot opening for a map with a backyard expo. Basically he will open up with whatever tech he wants and then expand off it. If you're on 2 base it'll be a lot easier to deal with that tech since you have fewer expos to defend from harass.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Xiphias Norway. September 21 2012 21:30. Posts 539
Now I want to give my advice: The main thing is to stay on 2 base and go 3 hatchery hydra. Scout properly with your first overlord just like Hero does. Cancel third hatchery at third base as soon as you know its 1 base Protoss. Make 3rd hatchery at your natural (stay on 2 base). Go 3 hatch hydra and get speed upgrade first. Get lair for overlord speed.
And probably 12 hatch 12 pool is a good basic start.
This sentence gives away alot about your understanding of the game. In ZvP overpool is the best opening. A really good tip I can give you is to watch carefully the order that the Zergs in the above games spend their larvae. Try to imagine the game from the Zerg point of view. What can he see, what must he prepare for. Watch the games a few times, try to come up with some ideas of why you think the loser lost. Then we can learn the game properly as it were.
Iplaythings Denmark. September 22 2012 00:29. Posts 7085
On September 21 2012 19:29 MyTHicaL wrote: You should just watch all pvz VODs pre-bisu (if it wasn't him who popularised the FE in pvz then I'm going to look stupid ).
The builds you describe are pretty silly as well. Basically you should be on 2 base to his 1, scout correctly and counter to win. Only 2 gate pressure into FE or tech should cause you any kind of problem.... There must be thousands of VODs to help you out, use the database!
You do look silly, not stupid cus it's a common misunderstanding
Nal_ra was the one to popularize forge FE, bisu was the one who did the sair dt opening and made the opening completely mainstream. Fun thing is that when everybody was forge FE'ing rA still also did 1 base tech builds.
To the OP, you are completely wrong about having to stick to 2 hatches, especially if the opponent does the 1 gate 1 gas -> sair or reaver or whatever.
3 hatches is more flexible, you should do 2 hatches at your natural and sim city them with 1 sunken (1-2 more if you scout more than 2 gateways), add a hydra den with your first 50 gas and then you can either go for a bust where you get speed or range before lair ( for ovie speed if he dts).
Done properly you should be safe vs anything. Going straight to lurkers or mutas can be risky vs speedlot heavy or reaver builds, pure hydra untill you hold of initial pressure and then going lurker / muta / 5-6 drones for a 4th/5th hatch at 3rd or in main.
If your opponent succesfully expands you can do various doom drop / expand / lurker contain etc strats. 2 hatch might be better vs a pure 2gate opening though, haven't experimented that much with 2hatch at all, 3hatch is just so much more versatile
Last edit: 2012-09-22 00:57:56
In the woods, there lurks..
Xiphias Norway. September 22 2012 03:18. Posts 539
And probably 12 hatch 12 pool is a good basic start.
This sentence gives away alot about your understanding of the game. .
... or just the fact that I've been playing sc2 for the last couple of years..... Got to get into to old bo's. But thanks for the reply, I'll check out the games.
krndandaman Mozambique. September 22 2012 05:11. Posts 4379
And probably 12 hatch 12 pool is a good basic start.
This sentence gives away alot about your understanding of the game. .
... or just the fact that I've been playing sc2 for the last couple of years..... Got to get into to old bo's. But thanks for the reply, I'll check out the games.
12h 11pool 12h is good vs 1base builds (other than 9/9 2gate / proxy) just get 3 hatches, get hydra to defend against toss' possible tech, try to get a scout in to see what he's doing and adapt appropriately. after you defend his attack with some kind of tech (or if he just tries to get map control with dt), depending on the situation harass and pressure if you can so that he can't get his expansion up but if not thats fine, just tech to mutas and take an expansion then tech to lurkers. from then on its a pretty normal game.
And probably 12 hatch 12 pool is a good basic start.
This sentence gives away alot about your understanding of the game. In ZvP overpool is the best opening.
....lings only vs zealot heavy aggression wont get you anywhere. The faster you can get that hatch up, the faster you can get a sunken down, with ling support, which is much more effective.
I strongly disagree with the fact that an overpool is the "best" opening in this match up. It has its place in certain conditions (e.g. on a 2 player map, where a pylon block at the natural can prevent 12 hatch), but it does not account for all protoss openings or zerg playstyles at all.
12 hatching is bad advice if you know your opponent is doing zealot heavy aggression. It is not impossible to hold, but you have to play very smart. If your opponent tends to 2gate you, go 11pool and then hatch.
If you advice 12 hatch (you can't know your opponent's build ahead of time usually, so what does that help..), you really need to explain how 12 hatch deals with various 1base or it is pointless advice. If you just build a sunken and think that is going to protect you, you'll lose the game. Defending a 2 gate with probes requires good decision making. Move lings to intercept reinforcements, attack probes that are out of position, don't engage zealots unless you outnumber them 4:1 or very close (unless zealots are weakened). Don't try to pick off one and then run away, because any protoss can just pull that one zealot back and get free hits on your lings and suddenly you've lost 5 lings and killed nothing. 12 hatch vs 2gate is unpleasant, but if you have good focus and engage at the right timing you can live in a decent position. Building a sunk doesn't hurt, but it's not gonna save the day if your ling use is sloppy. Creep colony will die really quick to 3 zealots and if you've only got 6 lings you're not really gonna be able to save it, so think of it as something that maybe buys a little time, especially if you can make your opponent chase your lings a little without actually engaging. But yeah... when a protoss 2gates he likes to be vs normal 9pool, and he likes to be vs 12 hatch. Anything that is economic but gets lings first fairs much better. Overpool and 11pool included. What really hurts when you're getting attacked by zealots is that you're not building drones and your lings aren't really that cost effective until you're outnumbering him 4:1, so the more drones you have before the attack starts the better. once you 12 hatch you're basically at 10 drones (because you built a pool) then 9 drones (if you built a sunken) or 8 (if you thought you'd build 2 sunks). Then you're sacking lings by the handful to try to keep your expo alive, while protoss is happily building probes and zealots concurrently. So be patient and wait for the right timing, while trying not to let reinforcements meet.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
trutaCz Poland. September 22 2012 15:37. Posts 223
Versus 1 base protoss there are some options. You can go for 12h exp normally but it depends on your ling/drone control because if he goes for zealot agression you have to defend it. If you go 12h exp and he goes for 9/9 gate(proxy) it may be hard if he pull probes it's almost impossible to defend your hatchery in natural but, if you have somewhere drone(drones) on map you can go and expand and there's still chance for you to win. If he blocks the ramp with zealot you have to somehow scout him for every 1-2min with lings to check if something happens, it's sometimes even necessary to lose your overlord and scout his base using overlord. And then as you wrote we see 3 options what protoss can go for:
a)- One base zealot push (guess 3-4 gates, maybe with speed). It depends on what you play, if you go for: -muta just make some good simcity and put 2-3 sunkens and have some lings to not let him runby into your base -some mass hydra, you also need good simcity but a lot of sunkens aren't necessary -lurkers/hydra or lurkers/ling, you can go for contain or make other exp and defend it using lurkers
b)- One base crossair / zealot, or crossair /dt's. versus corssair/dt's imho the best way to deal with it is go for normal 12h build and then make overlord speed as soon as lair is finished, and mass hydra. It works vs corssair zealot too. there's also semi all-in to counter this. you deny his scout and make a lot of speed lings from 3 hatcheries and it's gg. Works from D to A+.
versus corssair/zealot you can also go for mutas/scourges but you need good simcity to defend 1st zealot push. c)- One base reaver / goon. Lot of options: It has to be scouted properly first. You can go for hydra/ling and also muta/ling. He probably won't be faster and won't kill you than your muta will pop out from larvas
yo~.~
wcr.4fun Belgium. September 23 2012 00:00. Posts 685
Sorry to ask my own question here, but I didn't want to make a new thread and it's on topic:
If you go overpool into 11 hatch, make 6 lings and placed down your third only to suddenly spot a 2 gate (10/12 for example); what should your game plan be?
I read this advice on the forums from an A- player, dragon or something. He said, you shouldn't build a sunken when you overpooled because you'll be in a terrible economic position. He said you should get speed, but take drones off of gas and produce lings non-stop till you can push his pressure back.
Now when should you be making a third hatchery versus 2 gate? Staying on 2 hatches felt really terrible in my own games because you just don't have enough larvae to do anything decent.
In the games I've played, after I push back his zealots, he'll take an expansion with forge and just go for the typical stargate opening -> citadel -> templar.
He has a ton of zealots left and taking a third against them is seemingly impossible because they'll have speed really soon.
I'm thinking about the next plan: - check his gates/gas/expansion with my overlord and stop producing lings if the situation allows (he takes gas/expansion etc). - add third hatchery (at natural) - go for a spire, the mutalisk/scourges will arrive about at the same time as his corsair would. - with the mutalisks and a lot of lings leftover (+ extra build) and a sunken or two (+ sim city with third hatch) at the natural I should be able to defend both natural and my morphing third. - harrass with mutalisks - go to 4 base lurker/hydra or just a standard 'zvp'.
Last edit: 2012-09-23 00:01:39
knightpraetor United States. September 23 2012 03:56. Posts 173
Lately I definitely feel like it's suicide to stay on 2 bases after the toss takes two for more than 30sec unless the toss did not suicide sairs to kill the two ovies you had near his base...if you have an ovie nearby you can force cannons so that you don't get timing attacked before your 3rd base gets up.
On the other hand I almost always win when i just take a 3rd early. I don't know if it's possible to hold 1 gate tech into 3 gate speedlot with a 3rd base though.
Is it just absolutely crucial to keep at least one of your ovies near their base alive at all costs?
I'm just C- btw. I just was hoping some higher level players might discuss their thoughts. Do i need to go lair after speed instead of getting more hydras in order to get a faster ovie timing to attack the nat if they kill my ovies with the initial sairs?
cause when I do that I feel like I use too much gas to be able to have sufficient hydra numbers..they just build minimal cannons and seem up economically.
So far the only builds that work well is two base when they don't catch both of my initial hidden ovies so that i have sight on their base or 3 base from the start.
Last edit: 2012-09-23 05:26:27
FlaShFTW United States. September 23 2012 08:17. Posts 4963
On September 21 2012 19:29 MyTHicaL wrote: You should just watch all pvz VODs pre-bisu (if it wasn't him who popularised the FE in pvz then I'm going to look stupid ).
The builds you describe are pretty silly as well. Basically you should be on 2 base to his 1, scout correctly and counter to win. Only 2 gate pressure into FE or tech should cause you any kind of problem.... There must be thousands of VODs to help you out, use the database!
uhh.... that was Nal_Ra... bisu popularized the bisu build... xD
Never Surrender. Never GG. Always Fighting. BW4LYF. Woo Jung Ho Never Forget.
Bill Murray United States. September 23 2012 08:28. Posts 7057
I've watched a lot of Testie's replays over the years, and whenever he knew he would likely be facing a 2 gate opener, he'd use the extractor trick, get a 10th drone, expo, pool at 9. Not the most larvae efficient ofc, but it guaranteed an expansion and plenty of lings on time. You can make up for any damage done to econ by getting more hatcheries before gas. You won't need a quick gas anyway, being that toss sacrificed any early tech in favor of a rush.
You have enemies? Good. It means you stood up for something.
).
wcr.4fun Belgium. September 23 2012 00:00. Posts 685
