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| TheLunatic October 03 2012 03:59. Posts 296 | Profile # |
| All this talk on terran being the most complete race is garbage, timing attacks are crucial to victory, these are the only way to win out in macro by putting the enemy on the back foot, if terran simply tries to keep pace in the macro without doing damage there are huge openings were the enemy can simply a move to victory thus expelling the race is complete theory from any legitimate unbiased conversation about the workings of the race |
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| Ramiz1989 October 03 2012 04:03. Posts 1210 | Profile # |
On October 03 2012 02:59 kmillz wrote:
What defines a "complete" race? O_o
A race that have the most options and its units are usable in a lot of situations, and that every unit fills the gap, or has some role. That being said, none of the races are complete, but the most complete also in my opinion is Terran. Right now, beside the Reaper that is terrible, Battle Cruisers are also almost nonexistent(at least on top level, but they still have their uses), but every other unit is used regularly.
Being the most complete, doesn't mean the strongest, easiest or whatever. Zerg isn't the most complete simply because we can't stay on Lair tech and finish the game if we don't want to commit too much(go all-in), we have to rush the Infestor and Brood Lord army composition because it is easier to play with it and it is really strong. I am forced to do that. Also, at the Lair tech, Hydras are underused, Nydus is underused, Mutas are used less and less, just because Infestor fills every single gap out there. The unit is just awfully designed, because it is answer to everything enemy can make. Seeing 10 Corruptors, 10 Brood Lords and 30+ Infestors in the late game against every single race is just sad...
Infestors need seriously tuning, right now, they are just too good, and there is no drawback by having a lot of the Infestors. I hope that they change it somehow, so it becomes support caster instead of caster that kills everything. Looking at the Zerg streams of HOTS beta, they still prefer to rush to the Infestors than to the Swarm Hosts, or Vipers, or Hydras with speed or anything else.
I am Zerg player, and I hope that what DB said is true(that they will maybe nerf the Infestor while looking at other stuff that Zerg got), because I absolutely hate the current Zerg metagame, rushing Hive at 10th minute, and I hate Infestor + Brood Lord army composition. |
| | "Living for the Swarm..." |
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| numberThirtyOne United States. October 03 2012 05:20. Posts 294 | Profile # |
| Hmm. 4-gates with MC to spot high ground seem ridiculous. |
| | voIDRAys are the most bm unit in SC2 |  |
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| KevoVargas Peru. October 03 2012 05:44. Posts 18 | Profile # |
Just remove air atack on widow mine and make it 1/2 supply.
build 2 at a time from factory, like zearglins. and with reactor build 4 at a time.Last edit: 2012-10-03 05:44:54 |
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| kmillz United States. October 03 2012 06:04. Posts 1245 | Profile # |
On October 03 2012 04:03 Ramiz1989 wrote:A race that have the most options and its units are usable in a lot of situations, and that every unit fills the gap, or has some role. That being said, none of the races are complete, but the most complete also in my opinion is Terran. Right now, beside the Reaper that is terrible, Battle Cruisers are also almost nonexistent(at least on top level, but they still have their uses), but every other unit is used regularly. Being the most complete, doesn't mean the strongest, easiest or whatever. Zerg isn't the most complete simply because we can't stay on Lair tech and finish the game if we don't want to commit too much(go all-in), we have to rush the Infestor and Brood Lord army composition because it is easier to play with it and it is really strong. I am forced to do that. Also, at the Lair tech, Hydras are underused, Nydus is underused, Mutas are used less and less, just because Infestor fills every single gap out there. The unit is just awfully designed, because it is answer to everything enemy can make. Seeing 10 Corruptors, 10 Brood Lords and 30+ Infestors in the late game against every single race is just sad... Infestors need seriously tuning, right now, they are just too good, and there is no drawback by having a lot of the Infestors. I hope that they change it somehow, so it becomes support caster instead of caster that kills everything. Looking at the Zerg streams of HOTS beta, they still prefer to rush to the Infestors than to the Swarm Hosts, or Vipers, or Hydras with speed or anything else. I am Zerg player, and I hope that what DB said is true(that they will maybe nerf the Infestor while looking at other stuff that Zerg got), because I absolutely hate the current Zerg metagame, rushing Hive at 10th minute, and I hate Infestor + Brood Lord army composition.
Ok thank you for clearing that up. Maybe they should take away one of the infestors abilities and give another unit an ability that fills the same role? |
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| Ramiz1989 October 03 2012 07:15. Posts 1210 | Profile # |
On October 03 2012 06:04 kmillz wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 04:03 Ramiz1989 wrote:
On October 03 2012 02:59 kmillz wrote:
What defines a "complete" race? O_o
A race that have the most options and its units are usable in a lot of situations, and that every unit fills the gap, or has some role. That being said, none of the races are complete, but the most complete also in my opinion is Terran. Right now, beside the Reaper that is terrible, Battle Cruisers are also almost nonexistent(at least on top level, but they still have their uses), but every other unit is used regularly. Being the most complete, doesn't mean the strongest, easiest or whatever. Zerg isn't the most complete simply because we can't stay on Lair tech and finish the game if we don't want to commit too much(go all-in), we have to rush the Infestor and Brood Lord army composition because it is easier to play with it and it is really strong. I am forced to do that. Also, at the Lair tech, Hydras are underused, Nydus is underused, Mutas are used less and less, just because Infestor fills every single gap out there. The unit is just awfully designed, because it is answer to everything enemy can make. Seeing 10 Corruptors, 10 Brood Lords and 30+ Infestors in the late game against every single race is just sad... Infestors need seriously tuning, right now, they are just too good, and there is no drawback by having a lot of the Infestors. I hope that they change it somehow, so it becomes support caster instead of caster that kills everything. Looking at the Zerg streams of HOTS beta, they still prefer to rush to the Infestors than to the Swarm Hosts, or Vipers, or Hydras with speed or anything else. I am Zerg player, and I hope that what DB said is true(that they will maybe nerf the Infestor while looking at other stuff that Zerg got), because I absolutely hate the current Zerg metagame, rushing Hive at 10th minute, and I hate Infestor + Brood Lord army composition.
Ok thank you for clearing that up. Maybe they should take away one of the infestors abilities and give another unit an ability that fills the same role?
I don't think that they will take away some of the ability, but nerf some of them, and specifically fungal growth, they even said that they are taking a look at that ability. Infested Marines are problem when you have high number of Infestors, but you can get to the higher number of them because of the fungal, it stops everything, you just can't kill Zerg when he is camping with 20 Spines and 10 Infestors, and he keep adding more and more Infestors to his army.
Otherwise Infested Marines aren't problem when you have lower number of Infestors because they are immobile, they die to AoE and if Infestors overextend with energy usage on Infested Marines, they won't have enough energy for fungal, where in late game that isn't the problem, since you will always have the energy for fungal with 20+ Infestors... And Neural Parasite is never a problem, since its nerf it is situational ability at best.
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| | "Living for the Swarm..." |
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| G00BAK Canada. October 03 2012 08:12. Posts 51 | Profile # | |
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| G00BAK Canada. October 03 2012 08:14. Posts 51 | Profile # |
| I don't care what people way about the momma core. I like how the Toss has to tiskit if they want to use mass recall. Makes way more sense to me. |
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| Jerubaal United States. October 03 2012 08:38. Posts 2504 | Profile # |
| I'm sure this has been stated much more eloquently before, but this change completely changes the flavor of the mothership core and not for the better. The previous version of the mothership core opened up a huge new range of possibilities. You could literally throw your dart at a timing and pick that time for aggression and that's what's needed especially against zerg. Zerg has been steadily reaching a point where they can react to any aggression and come out ahead provided they see it coming. What's needed to counteract this is the ability to be random, reactive and reflexive- the opposite of Protoss. With the new mothership core, needing to protect it, Protoss will once again have to go back to only their strongest timings. And then what's the point of the recall? Fun fact: If you hit a two base timing and march over to the zerg's base and don't do any damage, you're dead. You better keep attacking until you do some damage. The times when recall would actually be useful in that situation will be..situational. |
| | I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain. |
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| archon256 United States. October 03 2012 09:34. Posts 360 | Profile # |
On October 03 2012 08:38 Jerubaal wrote:
You could literally throw your dart at a timing and pick that time for aggression and that's what's needed especially against zerg.
It's clear that Blizzard felt that such tactics were too strong, hence the change.
Now you can still do timing attacks, you just need to choose between slower attacks with the ability to recall your units if things get hairy, or faster attacks where you don't need to worry about protecting the Mcore.
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| | "The troupe is ready, the stage is set. I come to dance, the dance of death" |
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| NET United States. October 03 2012 19:13. Posts 643 | Profile Blog # |
Widow mine in mineral line is scary with no detection lol.
Maybe have it not target workers like the mine in sc1, if by chance they happen to get it in the mineral line and I have no detection, its basically gg. |
| | "Dark Templar are the saviors of the Protoss Race." -Artosis |  |
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| Hattori_Hanzo Singapore. October 03 2012 19:29. Posts 967 | Profile # |
I can see widow mines in the mineral line being a problem in the lower leagues, but come on. Medivac timings are at least 8minutes and above. Given their high cost, anything less than 6 worker kills is hugely expensive because of the gas and one hit nature of the mine.
I agree they COULD be imba if they were placed at expands with no way to defend, but again there ARE So many counters past the 7 minute mark. I do agree that this strategy is problematic for Terrans as scans and ravens aren't as readily available as overseer and observers. |
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| kmillz United States. October 04 2012 00:26. Posts 1245 | Profile # |
On October 03 2012 19:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I can see widow mines in the mineral line being a problem in the lower leagues, but come on. Medivac timings are at least 8minutes and above. Given their high cost, anything less than 6 worker kills is hugely expensive because of the gas and one hit nature of the mine.
I agree they COULD be imba if they were placed at expands with no way to defend, but again there ARE So many counters past the 7 minute mark. I do agree that this strategy is problematic for Terrans as scans and ravens aren't as readily available as overseer and observers.
Uhh..how do you figure? Scans should be available damn near all game unless you are mule greedy..and you can scan anywhere. If obs and or overseer are out of position you can't just instantly get vision where you need it.Last edit: 2012-10-04 00:28:06 |
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| Hattori_Hanzo Singapore. October 04 2012 04:05. Posts 967 | Profile # |
On October 04 2012 00:26 kmillz wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 19:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I can see widow mines in the mineral line being a problem in the lower leagues, but come on. Medivac timings are at least 8minutes and above. Given their high cost, anything less than 6 worker kills is hugely expensive because of the gas and one hit nature of the mine.
I agree they COULD be imba if they were placed at expands with no way to defend, but again there ARE So many counters past the 7 minute mark. I do agree that this strategy is problematic for Terrans as scans and ravens aren't as readily available as overseer and observers.
Uhh..how do you figure? Scans should be available damn near all game unless you are mule greedy..and you can scan anywhere. If obs and or overseer are out of position you can't just instantly get vision where you need it.
... You do realize the act of having to scan and have enough units there to kill the mine before the scan wears off costs more APM than both P's observer/stalker and Z's overseer/roach/infestor? |
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| kmillz United States. October 04 2012 04:12. Posts 1245 | Profile # |
On October 04 2012 04:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 00:26 kmillz wrote:
On October 03 2012 19:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I can see widow mines in the mineral line being a problem in the lower leagues, but come on. Medivac timings are at least 8minutes and above. Given their high cost, anything less than 6 worker kills is hugely expensive because of the gas and one hit nature of the mine.
I agree they COULD be imba if they were placed at expands with no way to defend, but again there ARE So many counters past the 7 minute mark. I do agree that this strategy is problematic for Terrans as scans and ravens aren't as readily available as overseer and observers.
Uhh..how do you figure? Scans should be available damn near all game unless you are mule greedy..and you can scan anywhere. If obs and or overseer are out of position you can't just instantly get vision where you need it.
... You do realize the act of having to scan and have enough units there to kill the mine before the scan wears off costs more APM than both P's observer/stalker and Z's overseer/roach/infestor?
Why would it take more apm? why does that even matter, my point was that scans are always available unless you are reckless with your energy, whereas vision for P or Z is not always available at every base unless you have 1 obs/overseer at every base (or spores or cannons). |
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| ReachTheSky United States. October 04 2012 05:39. Posts 2336 | Profile # |
On October 03 2012 19:13 NET wrote:
Widow mine in mineral line is scary with no detection lol.
Maybe have it not target workers like the mine in sc1, if by chance they happen to get it in the mineral line and I have no detection, its basically gg.
Yeah it is, I think the widow mine should not be activated by workers.
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| ReachTheSky United States. October 04 2012 05:41. Posts 2336 | Profile # |
On October 03 2012 19:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I can see widow mines in the mineral line being a problem in the lower leagues, but come on. Medivac timings are at least 8minutes and above. Given their high cost, anything less than 6 worker kills is hugely expensive because of the gas and one hit nature of the mine.
I agree they COULD be imba if they were placed at expands with no way to defend, but again there ARE So many counters past the 7 minute mark. I do agree that this strategy is problematic for Terrans as scans and ravens aren't as readily available as overseer and observers.
Its the early game proxy factory/in your opponent's base factory that is the problem. Harassing at the front with marine/marauder or reapers with a factory in your opponent's base churning out widow mines is, dare i say it, pretty overpowered. If blizzard changed the widow mine to not be activated by workers this would be much less of a problem. |
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| summerloud Austria. October 05 2012 00:56. Posts 951 | Profile # |
On October 03 2012 05:20 numberThirtyOne wrote:
Hmm. 4-gates with MC to spot high ground seem ridiculous.
so do reapers than can pick off any buildings on the edge of your starting plateau
im all for adding overpowered stuff like this, it will balance itself out |
| | why is everyone but me suffering from selective perception? |
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| Hattori_Hanzo Singapore. October 05 2012 03:09. Posts 967 | Profile # |
On October 05 2012 00:56 summerloud wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 05:20 numberThirtyOne wrote:
Hmm. 4-gates with MC to spot high ground seem ridiculous.
so do reapers than can pick off any buildings on the edge of your starting plateau im all for adding overpowered stuff like this, it will balance itself out
You bring up a valid point now ALL races have the ability to peek up the ramp albeit at a cost.
Reapers
Overlords
MC |
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| Von United States. October 05 2012 04:56. Posts 345 | Profile # |
On October 03 2012 02:59 kmillz wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 01:45 summerloud wrote:
On October 02 2012 05:33 s3rp wrote:
On October 02 2012 04:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:
On October 02 2012 04:41 pmp10 wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote:
I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics...
Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:36 TheLunatic wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote:
I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics...
Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right.  is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but  and  need more to fill in the gap than .
At least a third of Terran options in WoL is total crap. They have most options but since so many of them are just useless this doesn't really matter . Terran in WoL was the most complete race then they made several units and upgrades totally useless now it def. isn't anymore. Zerg probably is right now.
zerg isnt a complete race. its just that the infestor fills every single role
What defines a "complete" race? O_o
When your favorite race gets a big red Destructo button that instantly wipes out all enemy units and structures on the map.
Last edit: 2012-10-05 04:56:52 |
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