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I've been running a PvZ build that seems to work pretty well, and I was looking for quality feedback or replays/VODs of players doing similar strategies so that we might all improve. The build goes something like this:
Opening and third behind WG pressure:
FFE Quick gate 1 gas Core 2nd gas Zealot and 2 stalkers rallied at Z's third--keep these alive 2 more gates, chrono the crap out of WG tech and start +1 weapons Warp in 3 stalkers at ~7:50 and attack Z's third with 1z+5s Take third immediately after warping in the stalkers
Turtle:
About 5 sentries Robo, a bunch more gates, twilight Blink and +2 weapons when gas allows Colosus den (build about 3 colossi as you transition to mass air) Stargate
More turtling:
4th base, fleet beacon, mothership templar archives and a few more stargates carriers and storm
Win:
Keep deflecting attacks until you have around 6-10 carriers, 6 templar, a mothership and a bunch of archons. Build a billion cannons. Take a fifth if you can.
Kill Zerg.
http://drop.sc/261093 http://drop.sc/261095 http://drop.sc/261096
Honestly, it's a pretty boring build to use, but it seems to win more than anything else I try, so I keep doing it.
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Or if anyone has good high-level builds that involve a third base and don't open stargate, I'd be interested in seeing those too. My build was a result of trial and error trying everything I could think of with a third base. This was the only thing I could find that didn't lose like 75% of the time.
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United States8476 Posts
First, I don't how the way you take your third is safe. Should easily fall to a roach max. Second, I don't see how what you're doing is different from a standard turtle style.
The two "safe" builds that don't involve stargate are the standard robo expand, which i talked about here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327905
and a defensive 4 gate into twilight into robo expand, which was innovated by creator.
Creator vs Moon on Metropolis from GSTL Parting vs Symbol on Daybreak from GSL Oz vs JKS on Metropolis from GSL, 4 gate, twilight, robo, expand Oz vs JKS on Entombed Valley from GSL, 4 gate, twilight, robo, expand Oz vs Violet on Cloud Kingdom from MLG Sumemr Arena, 4 gate, twilight, robo, expand, vs roach/ling heavy pressure into infestors Oz vs Stephano on Entombed Valley from MLG Summer Arena, 4 gate, twilight, robo, expand Creator vs Idra on Ohana from IPL TAC 4, gate, twilight, robo, expand Squirtle vs Hyun on Metropolis from IPL Fight Club, 4 gate, twilight, robo, expand
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This build will hold roach max because with chrono on the robo, you will get immortals out and if you have good sim city, you can hold it. The 3-gate pressure also helps delay the attack.
This build is basically similar to the twilight-robo expand but you do a 3-gate pressure and delay tech for a bit.
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Yay, another kcdc guide! Thanks!
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United States8476 Posts
On October 04 2012 05:43 ian952 wrote: This build will hold roach max because with chrono on the robo, you will get immortals out and if you have good sim city, you can hold it. The 3-gate pressure also helps delay the attack.
This build is basically similar to the twilight-robo expand but you do a 3-gate pressure and delay tech for a bit. Yes, but it requires you to do damage plus you get slower sentries. If your opponent reacts perfectly, you'll be behind than you would have been if you did a standard gateway twilight robo build. And gateway twilight robo barely holds roach max anyways and doesn't on maps like Antiga.
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Monk, at least for me, this third is easier to hold than one where you get robo before the third nexus. I've tried both options quite a bit, and the WG timing seems to weaken the roach pressure considerably. Try it out--I think you'll agree that it's an easier third to hold.
As for what's different, I'm taking my third a little differently than how I see pros do it. And I'm skipping the pre-BL colossus pressure for faster fleet beacon. I'm also consistently hitting 6+ carrier counts, which seems unusual.
Also, thanks for the links. I'll be sure to check them out.
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On October 04 2012 05:51 monk. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 05:43 ian952 wrote: This build will hold roach max because with chrono on the robo, you will get immortals out and if you have good sim city, you can hold it. The 3-gate pressure also helps delay the attack.
This build is basically similar to the twilight-robo expand but you do a 3-gate pressure and delay tech for a bit. Yes, but it requires you to do damage plus you get slower sentries. If your opponent reacts perfectly, you'll be behind than you would have been if you did a standard gateway twilight robo build. And gateway twilight robo barely holds roach max anyways and doesn't on maps like Antiga.
Try it out--you get the third faster this way, and you wind up matching their production so you don't need as many forcefields.
Also, it's hard to put a finger on what the "perfect" Zerg response is to the 1z/5s pressure. It's pretty rare that Z will have speed at that point, and if they do, you fall back to your pylon for more zealots. If you're up against slow lings, you just micro a bit until they've built a reasonable army and then you go home. It's not supposed to do damage--it's just supposed to stall their economy a bit.
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I personally do a 2 gate 3 stalker pressure that hits before warpgate is done. After producing 3 stalkers, I make sentries only and take third off 2 gate way at about 6:45. Then I add gateway+cannons+robo and twilight at around 9:40.
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On October 04 2012 06:08 ian952 wrote: I personally do a 2 gate 3 stalker pressure that hits before warpgate is done. After producing 3 stalkers, I make sentries only and take third off 2 gate way at about 6:45. Then I add gateway+cannons+robo and twilight at around 9:40.
That's more or less how I was taking my third before I saw a pro game with a light WG stalker pressure into third. I think it might have been Titan that I stole the idea from? I'd say that adding the WG pressure improves the build over just doing a pre-WG stalker poke. You can do a zealot+stalker poke before WG tech to force some lings (like you would with a 3 stalker poke) and then you follow it up with the quick warp-ins. It seems to force a more significant response from Zerg, which makes a big difference in their eventual counter attack.
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United States8476 Posts
On October 04 2012 05:56 kcdc wrote: Monk, at least for me, this third is easier to hold than one where you get robo before the third nexus. I've tried both options quite a bit, and the WG timing seems to weaken the roach pressure considerably. Try it out--I think you'll agree that it's an easier third to hold.
As for what's different, I'm taking my third a little differently than how I see pros do it. And I'm skipping the pre-BL colossus pressure for faster fleet beacon. I'm also consistently hitting 6+ carrier counts, which seems unusual.
Also, thanks for the links. I'll be sure to check them out. Skipping colossi isn't too unusual these days against fast broodlords; Startale Protoss like Ace and Squirtle have been doing it for about half a year. Also, carriers are becoming very common lately. About half the games that go into extreme late game involve carriers.
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On October 04 2012 06:14 monk. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 05:56 kcdc wrote: Monk, at least for me, this third is easier to hold than one where you get robo before the third nexus. I've tried both options quite a bit, and the WG timing seems to weaken the roach pressure considerably. Try it out--I think you'll agree that it's an easier third to hold.
As for what's different, I'm taking my third a little differently than how I see pros do it. And I'm skipping the pre-BL colossus pressure for faster fleet beacon. I'm also consistently hitting 6+ carrier counts, which seems unusual.
Also, thanks for the links. I'll be sure to check them out. Skipping colossi isn't too unusual these days against fast broodlords; Startale Protoss like Ace and Squirtle have been doing it for about half a year. Also, carriers are becoming very common lately. About half the games that go into extreme late game involve carriers.
I'm not skipping colossi. That was another thing I had to learn the hard way. If you skip colossi, it's very hard to stop infestor-roach attacks before Z finishes his BL transition. What I'm not doing is attacking with the colossi. I just build about 3 colossi and park them next to my cannons.
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wasnt ling speed bit after 8min so ur push would get crushed 15s after it starts?
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On October 04 2012 06:21 SMMN wrote: wasnt ling speed bit after 8min so ur push would get crushed 15s after it starts?
It doesn't seem to. Usually, they don't quite have speed when the attack starts, and they almost always have a low unit count. You can either warp in some zealots to help or run away in time.
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On October 04 2012 05:09 kcdc wrote: Or if anyone has good high-level builds that involve a third base and don't open stargate, I'd be interested in seeing those too. My build was a result of trial and error trying everything I could think of with a third base. This was the only thing I could find that didn't lose like 75% of the time.
I think jangbi did a cool build in proleague, 1 gate pressure while taking a 3rd into mass +2 blink stalkers
i think it was versus sacsri...
ok found the VOD
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On October 04 2012 06:19 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 06:14 monk. wrote:On October 04 2012 05:56 kcdc wrote: Monk, at least for me, this third is easier to hold than one where you get robo before the third nexus. I've tried both options quite a bit, and the WG timing seems to weaken the roach pressure considerably. Try it out--I think you'll agree that it's an easier third to hold.
As for what's different, I'm taking my third a little differently than how I see pros do it. And I'm skipping the pre-BL colossus pressure for faster fleet beacon. I'm also consistently hitting 6+ carrier counts, which seems unusual.
Also, thanks for the links. I'll be sure to check them out. Skipping colossi isn't too unusual these days against fast broodlords; Startale Protoss like Ace and Squirtle have been doing it for about half a year. Also, carriers are becoming very common lately. About half the games that go into extreme late game involve carriers. I'm not skipping colossi. That was another thing I had to learn the hard way. If you skip colossi, it's very hard to stop infestor-roach attacks before Z finishes his BL transition. What I'm not doing is attacking with the colossi. I just build about 3 colossi and park them next to my cannons.
lately, many people are getting delayed colossus of double robo so they will have 4 colossi by the time zerg has BL even if they start their support bay very late.
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Watched the first rep. I used to pretty much do this exact thing almost every PvZ, namely warpgate aggression without fast tech, relatively fast 3rd, turtle with colossus and cannon, get 4th, get carrier/mothership, make carrier/colossus/archon/ht mothership deathball, win.
However, problems with it include:
1. Fast 3rd with slow tech is unsafe. You need to know if they're trying to mass roach off 3 base to kill you or if they're teching/macroing/getting a 4th. If you have few or no immortals against fast roach max, you will die, if you blindly chrono immortals/more sentries and other defenses you'll be behind going into late game or if they go mutas. I guess in your game you might have reacted differently if you sensed/scouted a fast roach max was coming, but there would be no way you'd survive it doing what you did.
2. Getting a 4th early before you're nearly maxed or have a large number of robo units is unsafe. The zerg should have been maxed at that point, and also his infestor play was sloppy so you were able to defend it (for example he threw infested terrans only after his army died). I'm never able to hold a 4th at that stage of the game though.
3. Slowly transitioning to carriers is awkward. If you have a large ground army you want to vortex broodlords and then burst DPS when units come out. If you have carriers you want to vortex corruptor. If you are slowly transitioning to carriers then you have a period time where you're extremely weak when you only have a few carriers out and a lot of supply tied into making more carriers. At that point your army is still mostly ground but it's significantly smaller, and the few carriers you have are not adding much to your side especially when your own vortex sucks in interceptors. In other words what I'm trying to say is mass carrier with colossus/ht/archon support is strong, mass ground with mothership is not bad, but mostly ground with some carrier support is very bad.
So now my standard PvZ macro/turtle build is a bit different. Here's how I've adapted:
1. Fast robo, fast 3rd but still with the 8 minute 4 gate warpgate timing. My first 100 gas goes to warpgate tech and a stalker, my next 100 gas goes to the robo. Then I add 3 additional gateways, and I can put down my 3rd at around 7:30. I afford this by not getting my +1 upgrade that early (usually I start it after I start my 3rd base), and by delaying my 2nd gas and the 3rd/4th gas until after I start the 3rd base (I know that you also delay your 2nd gas in your games, but most standard PvZ builds get double gas at 19/20 supply). Not only does the fast robo provide me with a fast obs for fast scouting, it also allows me to build up that immortal count fast to defend my 3rd against roaches.
2. I don't take a 4th until I'm nearly maxed and I'm moving out to attack. I typically go for a pre-bl colossus timing, but I still get a mothership behind it so it's not a complete all-in and I have something to fall back on if he is able to defend until BLs come out. Because my 4th is later, I can't afford to get carriers that fast, so I don't. But this leads to my next comment:
3. Carrier transition - the best way I've come up with to transition to air is to prepare for a mass transition - get air upgrades and lay down a lot of stargates, but don't make any carriers yet, just focus on your stalker/colossus/archon/mothership army first. Work on your mothership micro (which is actually quite difficult - you need to control it will since it needs to be fully stopped before it can cast vortex, and also you need to watch it at all times and protect it from neurals), but if you are careful with your mothership although the game may stalemate if he hides behind a spine wall, he shouldn't be able to beat your army until he slowly turns his entire army to ~20 broodlords with some infestors/corruptor support. At this point you should be grabbing a 5th and even more bases and mass cannoning to protect them, while harassing with warp prism/poking with your main army. When he finally attacks you can choose to try to defend it, or go counter into his main. Most likely he'll turn around to try to defend, and then you do your air transition while trying to kill off as much of his base/tech as you can. After he stabilizes, continue to buy time by doing warp prism harass (use 2+ warp prisms). Hopefully you haven't actually killed any of his brood lords so that all his supply is tied into bl when you get air out. It sounds kinda cheesy but it's the best you can do unless you just want to all-in earlier and pray for lucky vortexes, once the zerg gets like 20 broodlords and doesn't stack them all in 1 place there is literally no way for you to kill it with only ground and 2 vortexes.
Note that the carrier transition doesn't always happen - in fact it's actually quite rare for the game to get to that stage, but it's pretty much the best way I can come up to make carriers. I
Here's a replay kinda showing this, it's not too good (some early timings were off especially the late warpgate timing, also I get an early 4th like I say not to, but I get it because I scout his fast hive plus I kill off a group of roaches without taking any losses), but it's the best I can quickly find right now. I'll try to find other reps later. http://drop.sc/261127
Also just as another build you may want to look at is that jangbi fast 3rd build where you just chrono gateway units out of your first gate, and get your 3rd base off of 1 gateway. It's nice if you want to pressure the zerg earlier, since most zergs are just used to defending the 8:00 warpgate timing and can get caught off guard either taking more damage than they should or overbuilding units and then being behind in drones. I personally don't like it because your tech is slower but if you don't mind that you should try it, it's safer than you'd think with a lot more early aggressive potential.
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United States8476 Posts
On October 04 2012 06:29 rsvp wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Watched the first rep. I used to pretty much do this exact thing almost every PvZ, namely warpgate aggression without fast tech, relatively fast 3rd, turtle with colossus and cannon, get 4th, get carrier/mothership, make carrier/colossus/archon/ht mothership deathball, win. However, problems with it include: 1. Fast 3rd with slow tech is unsafe. You need to know if they're trying to mass roach off 3 base to kill you or if they're teching/macroing/getting a 4th. If you have few or no immortals against fast roach max, you will die, if you blindly chrono immortals/more sentries and other defenses you'll be behind going into late game or if they go mutas. I guess in your game you might have reacted differently if you sensed/scouted a fast roach max was coming, but there would be no way you'd survive it doing what you did. 2. Getting a 4th early before you're nearly maxed or have a large number of robo units is unsafe. The zerg should have been maxed at that point, and also his infestor play was sloppy so you were able to defend it (for example he threw infested terrans only after his army died). I'm never able to hold a 4th at that stage of the game though. 3. Slowly transitioning to carriers is awkward. If you have a large ground army you want to vortex broodlords and then burst DPS when units come out. If you have carriers you want to vortex corruptor. If you are slowly transitioning to carriers then you have a period time where you're extremely weak when you only have a few carriers out and a lot of supply tied into making more carriers. At that point your army is still mostly ground but it's significantly smaller, and the few carriers you have are not adding much to your side especially when your own vortex sucks in interceptors. In other words what I'm trying to say is mass carrier with colossus/ht/archon support is strong, mass ground with mothership is not bad, but mostly ground with some carrier support is very bad. So now my standard PvZ macro/turtle build is a bit different. Here's how I've adapted: 1. Fast robo, fast 3rd but still with the 8 minute 4 gate warpgate timing. My first 100 gas goes to warpgate tech and a stalker, my next 100 gas goes to the robo. Then I add 3 additional gateways, and I can put down my 3rd at around 7:30. I afford this by not getting my +1 upgrade that early (usually I start it after I start my 3rd base), and by delaying my 2nd gas and the 3rd/4th gas until after I start the 3rd base (I know that you also delay your 2nd gas in your games, but most standard PvZ builds get double gas at 19/20 supply). Not only does the fast robo provide me with a fast obs for fast scouting, it also allows me to build up that immortal count fast to defend my 3rd against roaches. 2. I don't take a 4th until I'm nearly maxed and I'm moving out to attack. I typically go for a pre-bl colossus timing, but I still get a mothership behind it so it's not a complete all-in and I have something to fall back on if he is able to defend until BLs come out. Because my 4th is later, I can't afford to get carriers that fast, so I don't. But this leads to my next comment: 3. Carrier transition - the best way I've come up with to transition to air is to prepare for a mass transition - get air upgrades and lay down a lot of stargates, but don't make any carriers yet, just focus on your stalker/colossus/archon/mothership army first. Work on your mothership micro (which is actually quite difficult - you need to control it will since it needs to be fully stopped before it can cast vortex, and also you need to watch it at all times and protect it from neurals), but if you are careful with your mothership although the game may stalemate if he hides behind a spine wall, he shouldn't be able to beat your army until he slowly turns his entire army to ~20 broodlords with some infestors/corruptor support. At this point you should be grabbing a 5th and even more bases and mass cannoning to protect them, while harassing with warp prism/poking with your main army. When he finally attacks you can choose to try to defend it, or go counter into his main. Most likely he'll turn around to try to defend, and then you do your air transition while trying to kill off as much of his base/tech as you can. After he stabilizes, continue to buy time by doing warp prism harass (use 2+ warp prisms). Hopefully you haven't actually killed any of his brood lords so that all his supply is tied into bl when you get air out. It sounds kinda cheesy but it's the best you can do unless you just want to all-in earlier and pray for lucky vortexes, once the zerg gets like 20 broodlords and doesn't stack them all in 1 place there is literally no way for you to kill it with only ground and 2 vortexes. Note that the carrier transition doesn't always happen - in fact it's actually quite rare for the game to get to that stage, but it's pretty much the best way I can come up to make carriers. I Here's a replay kinda showing this, it's not too good (some early timings were off especially the late warpgate timing, also I get an early 4th like I say not to, but I get it because I scout his fast hive plus I kill off a group of roaches without taking any losses), but it's the best I can quickly find right now. I'll try to find other reps later. http://drop.sc/261127Also just as another build you may want to look at is that jangbi fast 3rd build where you just chrono gateway units out of your first gate, and get your 3rd base off of 1 gateway. It's nice if you want to pressure the zerg earlier, since most zergs are just used to defending the 8:00 warpgate timing and can get caught off guard either taking more damage than they should or overbuilding units and then being behind in drones. I personally don't like it because your tech is slower but if you don't mind that you should try it, it's safer than you'd think with a lot more early aggressive potential. Feel like I need to ban you for this post. You know why.....
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lol lots of posts in the time it took me to write that
Some things I want to comment on -
1. Versus roach max - there's the kind that waits until 200/200 max at 12-13 minutes before attacking - which I believe kcdc's build in the OP will be fine against. However, lots of roach max builds begin attacking much earlier, and any sort of fast 3rd, especially those without a fast robo and sentries, will have a lot of difficulty holding.
2. On early gateway aggression - there are tons of variants out there (whether you get units out of 1 gate or 2 gate, chronoed units before warpgate, how many gates, zealots vs stalkers, etc. it doesn't matter), and zergs are getting good at defending all them. Typically they just get a decent number of lings early on and use those to scout/delay and produce an optimal response to whatever variation of gateway harass you're doing. So in other words, it's still good to do these kinds of pokes, but you can't depend on them to really significantly slow down the zerg.
3. Colossus vs no colossus, pre-BL timings - I've played around a lot with getting colossus versus no colossus and I really think getting colossus is the better and safer route. I know that progamers often skip colossus but I think those are specific towards special situations/builds/maps. Monk, do you have any replays/vods showing PvZ without colossus going up a heavy ling/infestor style?
As far as pre-BL timings go now I always go for it, while still getting a mothership behind the attack. That way it's not all-in, and why not do it? You have the chance to do a lot of damage, and you should be safe since before BLs your 200/200 colossus army should be able to beat anything else zerg throws at you. Then when they do get BL you can safely retreat since BLs are so slow.
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On October 04 2012 06:36 monk. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 06:29 rsvp wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Watched the first rep. I used to pretty much do this exact thing almost every PvZ, namely warpgate aggression without fast tech, relatively fast 3rd, turtle with colossus and cannon, get 4th, get carrier/mothership, make carrier/colossus/archon/ht mothership deathball, win. However, problems with it include: 1. Fast 3rd with slow tech is unsafe. You need to know if they're trying to mass roach off 3 base to kill you or if they're teching/macroing/getting a 4th. If you have few or no immortals against fast roach max, you will die, if you blindly chrono immortals/more sentries and other defenses you'll be behind going into late game or if they go mutas. I guess in your game you might have reacted differently if you sensed/scouted a fast roach max was coming, but there would be no way you'd survive it doing what you did. 2. Getting a 4th early before you're nearly maxed or have a large number of robo units is unsafe. The zerg should have been maxed at that point, and also his infestor play was sloppy so you were able to defend it (for example he threw infested terrans only after his army died). I'm never able to hold a 4th at that stage of the game though. 3. Slowly transitioning to carriers is awkward. If you have a large ground army you want to vortex broodlords and then burst DPS when units come out. If you have carriers you want to vortex corruptor. If you are slowly transitioning to carriers then you have a period time where you're extremely weak when you only have a few carriers out and a lot of supply tied into making more carriers. At that point your army is still mostly ground but it's significantly smaller, and the few carriers you have are not adding much to your side especially when your own vortex sucks in interceptors. In other words what I'm trying to say is mass carrier with colossus/ht/archon support is strong, mass ground with mothership is not bad, but mostly ground with some carrier support is very bad. So now my standard PvZ macro/turtle build is a bit different. Here's how I've adapted: 1. Fast robo, fast 3rd but still with the 8 minute 4 gate warpgate timing. My first 100 gas goes to warpgate tech and a stalker, my next 100 gas goes to the robo. Then I add 3 additional gateways, and I can put down my 3rd at around 7:30. I afford this by not getting my +1 upgrade that early (usually I start it after I start my 3rd base), and by delaying my 2nd gas and the 3rd/4th gas until after I start the 3rd base (I know that you also delay your 2nd gas in your games, but most standard PvZ builds get double gas at 19/20 supply). Not only does the fast robo provide me with a fast obs for fast scouting, it also allows me to build up that immortal count fast to defend my 3rd against roaches. 2. I don't take a 4th until I'm nearly maxed and I'm moving out to attack. I typically go for a pre-bl colossus timing, but I still get a mothership behind it so it's not a complete all-in and I have something to fall back on if he is able to defend until BLs come out. Because my 4th is later, I can't afford to get carriers that fast, so I don't. But this leads to my next comment: 3. Carrier transition - the best way I've come up with to transition to air is to prepare for a mass transition - get air upgrades and lay down a lot of stargates, but don't make any carriers yet, just focus on your stalker/colossus/archon/mothership army first. Work on your mothership micro (which is actually quite difficult - you need to control it will since it needs to be fully stopped before it can cast vortex, and also you need to watch it at all times and protect it from neurals), but if you are careful with your mothership although the game may stalemate if he hides behind a spine wall, he shouldn't be able to beat your army until he slowly turns his entire army to ~20 broodlords with some infestors/corruptor support. At this point you should be grabbing a 5th and even more bases and mass cannoning to protect them, while harassing with warp prism/poking with your main army. When he finally attacks you can choose to try to defend it, or go counter into his main. Most likely he'll turn around to try to defend, and then you do your air transition while trying to kill off as much of his base/tech as you can. After he stabilizes, continue to buy time by doing warp prism harass (use 2+ warp prisms). Hopefully you haven't actually killed any of his brood lords so that all his supply is tied into bl when you get air out. It sounds kinda cheesy but it's the best you can do unless you just want to all-in earlier and pray for lucky vortexes, once the zerg gets like 20 broodlords and doesn't stack them all in 1 place there is literally no way for you to kill it with only ground and 2 vortexes. Note that the carrier transition doesn't always happen - in fact it's actually quite rare for the game to get to that stage, but it's pretty much the best way I can come up to make carriers. I Here's a replay kinda showing this, it's not too good (some early timings were off especially the late warpgate timing, also I get an early 4th like I say not to, but I get it because I scout his fast hive plus I kill off a group of roaches without taking any losses), but it's the best I can quickly find right now. I'll try to find other reps later. http://drop.sc/261127Also just as another build you may want to look at is that jangbi fast 3rd build where you just chrono gateway units out of your first gate, and get your 3rd base off of 1 gateway. It's nice if you want to pressure the zerg earlier, since most zergs are just used to defending the 8:00 warpgate timing and can get caught off guard either taking more damage than they should or overbuilding units and then being behind in drones. I personally don't like it because your tech is slower but if you don't mind that you should try it, it's safer than you'd think with a lot more early aggressive potential. Feel like I need to ban you for this post. You know why.....
is it because you guys are wasting time trying to figure out how to macro vs. zerg when everyone knows all-ins are easier? lol
in all seriousness though, I feel like you guys are underestimating just how flexible and often times unpredictable zerg can be.
Pushing with colossus and making a mothership behind it so you have something to fall back on just doesnt sound that smart. Your going completely against the protoss way of either committing to an attack or not committing to an attack.
If your trying to hit an anti-hive timing then that 8 supply and 400 gas can make a difference after youve begun trading units. Not to mention that if you get caught with fungals and you happen to lose a chunk of your army (and dont say this doesnt happen because you'd be lying) then even if you retreat and fall back you'll find yourself burning more and more gas on replacing stalkers and you'll have a blink stakler mothership army. And this might have worked out ok a year ago, but today it just doesnt cut it vs. the mass brood infestor style thats so popular today.
Carriers seem like a horrible choice too, I used to be all for Carrier HT as a unit comp but the build time to make carriers and their cost just makes them such a difficult transition. Not to mention that if they have a high infestor count then corruptor infested terran with fungal is just going make you sad.
You think replacing colossus is annoying? try replacing carriers with their 2minute build time.
AND you have to take into consideration that you might not be able to defend the 5-6 bases needed to support this. I cant tell you how many times I've made carriers only to run out of minerals and can no longer afford Interceptors
Zerg OP!
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