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http://drop.sc/261771
I haven't really lost to a 6 gate before (not many people do it/poor execution on player's part) so I'm kind of at a loss to what I could have done better. I opened Bomber's 1 Rax FE; I had 2 full bunkers and a hand full of MM when the attack occurred. Stim wasn't ready. I lost a bunker(and 4 marines) before pulling scvs but was force-fielded out anyway. Missile Turret and Supply depot in front of bunkers to help lower zealot dps. I eventually just lose too many units and it snowballs.
I'm not ranting or looking for " herr derr FF so op"; I'm in the mentality winning/losing only depends on me, meaning that I lost because I didn't play well enough, so I'd rather just talk about what I COULD have done. I don't think that my macro was bad (except for the late additional 2 rax) and my reaction was decently fast until I got force fielded anyway, so I don't think that scvs could have repaired regardless.
Do I just chalk this up to no scouting info? If I had scvs at the bunkers already, I suppose that I can keep them for awhile longer, at least long enough to have more units when Stim finishes. This is at Diamond-level for people who care, but I welcome input from all leagues. Thanks!
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United States8476 Posts
You post is good, but please remember to tag your threads in the strategy forums in accordance with the strategy forum guidelines in the future.
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Ahhh! I knew that I forgot something. The "[H]" tag. Sorry and Thanks! :D
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You need at LEAST 3 bunkers to hold off a six gate just sayin always have a scout ahead to see if he's going to attack because pulling scvs when he's at your front door decreases your chances of holding
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While your reaction wasn't 'that' slow, you could have seen it coming if you contested the tower more. As soon as a marauder pops, send your army to the watch towers and leave a marine then afteryou pull back. Map control is one of the biggest aids vs protoss all ins, as there is no fool proof way to scout protoss tech or gateways, they are easily hidden.
with good map control you should sniff out all ins coming and have more bunkers prepared, or at the very least, have scvs at the ready if you see it coming
edit:typo
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Does anyone know if you're able to afford a blind THIRD bunker with the Bomber 1 Rax FE? I know that you're able to get 2 (which is why I did). Not that my macro is good enough for it to really matter, but it would be nice to know if I could just build a blind 3rd bunker at my level until my macro doesn't allow it.
In regards to contesting the tower more, I normally don't move out until around 9ish minutes because of the timings (of both the 6-7 gate all ins and the late marauders from Bomber's Build) but I can definitely see how having the tower could help immensely. I'll keep it in mind. It's just that I'm normally kind of scared that if I meet the Protoss army in the middle of the map and he IS 6-7 gating, Stim still isn't finished and I'll lose whatever army I moved out with meaning its GG.
Thanks for the input though. :D
Edit: Grammer
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Well the biggest problem you had was, that you didn´t scout at all after your initial worker scout. If you scout a 1 gate fe you can try to take the watchtower with your first 6 or 7 marines. With this you can scout arround your base and look for proxy pylons and the number of stalker. If you want to make sure, you can build a marrauder after you start stim and then you basically have the mapcontroll. While doing little moveouts like this you can see the army movement of your opponent. If he´s in front of your base with a lot of stuff then you should prepare for a gateway timing. The biggest tell is imo to see sentries out on the map. What a protoss normally does is to rely on 2-3 sentries at their natrual for defensive force fields and a few units. If you see a lot of units out on the map it´s almost allways an allin. To hold a gateway timing you really need at least 3 bunkers and your scvs ready to repair arround your bunker if he walks up the ramp. If you want to stay extra safe and you saw sentries, build 1 bunker for every sentry you scout.
Also keep in mind even if you loose a good number of scvs, the protoss is way behind in tech(unit tech and upgrades!), which gives you good opportunities to do drop herrass and to hit a 2-2 timing aggainst his tech choice, which should win you the game if you execute it well.
Their´s no reason not to take mapcontroll aggainst a protoss who goes 1 gate fe, since the normal way he relys on 1 or 2 stalkers for mapcontroll and plays as greedy as he can behind it. So when you move out with your marines and chase the stalker away the protoss has to asume, that a 4 rax pressure is possible and make more units to stay safe. This will help you overall in TvP since your opponent can´t play that greedy anymore.
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You need three or more bunkers to hold a six gate, but it's ridiculous to make a third bunker blind just because you're scared, so you have to get information.
I think it's a really good move for terrans to hide an SCV on their opponents side of the map after the initial scout. Even if you run to his natural and he kills your SCV instantly with some units you still get information (his units aren't outside your base or on the map building up for an attack). You could also attempt to send an SCV around your half of the map to look for pylons just to see if your opponent has aggressive potential.
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I really like the 6-7 marine move out to take control of the tower. The way you explained it totally makes sense. Thanks Sianos.
Regarding the blind bunkers, I guess it is a little ridiculous but I tend to want to be more cautious. Plus, it was really hard to look at the replay completely objectively so that was the only thing that I could think of. Regardless, all this input is helping out a lot; I just started playing 1v1 as Terran (~60 wins). Much appreciated.
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On October 06 2012 17:34 Shebuha wrote: You need three or more bunkers to hold a six gate, but it's ridiculous to make a third bunker blind just because you're scared, so you have to get information.
I think it's a really good move for terrans to hide an SCV on their opponents side of the map after the initial scout. Even if you run to his natural and he kills your SCV instantly with some units you still get information (his units aren't outside your base or on the map building up for an attack). You could also attempt to send an SCV around your half of the map to look for pylons just to see if your opponent has aggressive potential.
what you said is correct, however, most of the time with the follow up scout vs a 6 gate you will simple see he has expanded with some units at the front (which is important scouting information) but this doesn't really help with holding the 6 gate per se
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master T here
eddy, u lost because you left those rax idle too much of the time. SC2 is an arms race, you need constant units, constant upgrades, constant everything. As the game proceeds you must become deadlier.
You 2 TLabs and 1 reactor, instead u had 2 naked rax. You also needed 1 reaper in those bunkers, invaluable at carving up zealots quicker. 2 TLabs lets u get Combat Shield and Conc Shells whilst stim is researching.
Macro decisions were thy downfall olde chappe :^)
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On October 08 2012 17:27 BioTech wrote: master T here
eddy, u lost because you left those rax idle too much of the time. SC2 is an arms race, you need constant units, constant upgrades, constant everything. As the game proceeds you must become deadlier.
You 2 TLabs and 1 reactor, instead u had 2 naked rax. You also needed 1 reaper in those bunkers, invaluable at carving up zealots quicker. 2 TLabs lets u get Combat Shield and Conc Shells whilst stim is researching.
Macro decisions were thy downfall olde chappe :^)
Pretty much this. Also you can get a 3rd bunker without a problem with the Bomber build, it'll just delay getting more scvs.
And it also is pointless of doing the build if you lose because you couldn't build an extra bunker ^^;
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On October 08 2012 17:27 BioTech wrote: master T here
eddy, u lost because you left those rax idle too much of the time. SC2 is an arms race, you need constant units, constant upgrades, constant everything. As the game proceeds you must become deadlier.
You 2 TLabs and 1 reactor, instead u had 2 naked rax. You also needed 1 reaper in those bunkers, invaluable at carving up zealots quicker. 2 TLabs lets u get Combat Shield and Conc Shells whilst stim is researching.
Macro decisions were thy downfall olde chappe :^)
Youre not supposed to get additional addons until 8.30 or something like that with bomber's build. Reaper wont help at all either. Youre definetely right about the constant producion though. Its insanely important to keep producing all the time, cause otherwise you simply wont have enough units sometimes. Also, hotkey all your scvs at natural so you can pull them quickly, put one marine in front of ur natural so you can spot his attack in time, and lastly you can scout around for a proxy pylon around your base in order to know whether an all in is incoming or not.
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On the ladder I always make 3 blind bunkers because every single protoss will do some warpgate abuse. I take my gases 5 seconds later which allows me to have the extra 200 minerals in tradeoff to my tech beeing delayed. Better safe than sorry. Have a Marine or scv at the bottom of your ramp to add some more reaction time to pull scv. Take 5 or more marines to chase away the stalker in front of your base. If you see a zealot or sentry there you know a push is coming. If you can check the gas at his natural and no gases are taken, it means a gateway push is coming too, unless he took a third nexus. If you can scout that he is doing a push, a nice rule I have is adding 1 bunker per gateway he has, so in this case 6 bunkers. Too often I died with 3 bunkers surrounded with scvs, its just ridiculous. I saw Mvp also making like 6-7 bunkers on his stream.
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my advice would be having a marine /scvs a bit in front of youre bunkers, (after you cleared the beginning stalker) to scout for the attack and then react properly by pulling scvs to repair, then just let scvs stay at bunkers and wait for stim to finish,after that you should be fine. 2 bunkers are enough to hold stuff like that
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I wouldn't blindly build a third bunker. Like others suggested: you should try to get map vision or at least vision directly in front of your natural so you're able to pull scv's in time. I think the safest choice is to scan his main at around 6:30
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im also a master terran and i die a lot to protoss allins (timings as they say).. especially on maps like entombed with the awesome spawns where controlling the watch tower does basically nothing i think it is absolutely valid to build 2 blind bunkers ALL the time on ladder as i dont have pro level reaction time and game experience. scanning his base around 6 minutes is also ALWAYS good as it oftenly reveals his tech and warpgate count.
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But building 1 or even 2 more blind bunkers is still cheaper than wasting a scan that early in the game. I usually scan either at about 10 min or not at all.
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You could also try to open with a factory build and deploy 2-3 sieged tanks, i saw a lot of pro gamers do this to be safe of protoss all-ins. I do MC's 6gate vs terran quite often and 2-3 siege tanks would make it 100% worthless. but you'd probably need a different opening than bomber's.
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Diamond Terran player here. Your opening is standard so I don't bother comment it.
I think you should scan his natural between 7:30-8:00. If you see no gas at his natural he is probably going for some kind of all in (maybe a fast third). If I see no gas at that time I always send out a marine to scout in front of my base.
In this case you would have seen a huge army there and would have been able to pull 10 SCVs in time to repair those bunkers.
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