The LAN Experiment Starcraft 2 had just come out and I had planned a big LAN party with many of my friends. Some of them had never played Starcraft at all before, but were very excited about the new game and wanted to try it out. One of my friends, we’ll call him Yukon Cornelius, had never played Starcraft before and came early so that I could show him the ropes a bit before everything got started. I found a safe build for him to learn and wrote it down for reference and tried to explain as much as I could about the game: Unit compositions, counters, strategies, and all the things that I learned to play the game. He was eager to learn and began working on his build order. When the rest of my friends came and we started playing games and setting up brackets, I checked in on Yukon to see how he was doing. He had been playing for about 9 hours at that point and he was getting very frustrated and not showing very much improvement. Many of my friends chalked this up to the idea that “Starcraft is a really hard game”, but I wasn’t satisfied with stopping there.
After watching him play, I came up with an experiment. I told him to only focus on 3 things: Keep your money low, build pylons ahead of time, and build only zealots and probes. The result was mind bending. He wasn’t only beating some of my other friends who had just recently picked up the game; he was beating me; he was beating the friends that had been playing in the beta, with our build order notebooks, counters, and strategies; and he was having fun doing it. I had many LAN parties to follow, and repeated this experiment; the results were consistent. The players I taught with this approach had more fun, improved faster and won. The players I taught with the strategic approach got frustrated, overwhelmed, and lost. The latter result could be attributed to poor strategic coaching, but the former was interesting to me, so I continued to pursue it.
Psychology and Starcraft Games use a variety of psychological methods to get you to play and to keep playing. The Skinner Box is one of the more well known methods but there are others. Starcraft 2 has a form of this in the achievement system, but the reward isn't directly tied to improvement, which is what I wanted to do. I began looking for a better understanding of human motivation and found this talk by Dan Pink particularly interesting.
I would definitely describe playing Starcraft as requiring more than "rudimentary cognitive skill" and therefore the motivators of Autonomy, Mastery, and Purpose, apply here. Mastery is clearly a motivator for playing Starcraft. Purpose is somewhat distorted as the mainstream opinion of video games as a whole has been that they are a waste of time, that is changing slowly, but Starcraft has, i think, a particular role to play in this problem. It is an incredibly beneficial exercise and challenge. More and more studies are coming out about the benefits of playing Starcraft both mentally and physically. In the future I will be doing more research on this and collecting all of these things in one form or another, but until then there's one more motivator to address: Autonomy.
Now, if you've heard about this method before, you may be saying to yourself, "Limiting which units you can make does not promote Autonomy!" That is correct in a way, but let's look at the picture as a whole. Given complete Autonomy, every player would have to learn for him or herself all of the basic and unchanging things about Starcraft that we already know. On the other hand, removing all autonomy and saying that there is one and only one thing you must to do learn this game is very de-motivational. The goal of this system is to give enough guidance so that the player has a purpose and direction, but not so much so that the player isn't being encouraged to exercise their creativity or to have fun through experimentation.
There is one more parallel I want to draw between Dan Pink's talk on motivation, and Starcraft 2. He talks about how money is a motivator in jobs, but that the best way to use money as a motivator is to take it off the table so that the employee doesn't have to worry about money, and can put all of their focus on the task at hand. This, to me, is like winning and losing in Starcraft. If we can take the anxiety of winning and losing out of the equation, the player can better focus on the task at hand, improvement.
The Myth of the Bronze Player Its been more than a year now that I've focused on trying to understand "The Bronze Player" and why he/she has such a hard time moving up in the ranks. From my experience, most higher level players respond to this question by saying things like, "They don't care", "They don't want it bad enough", "They're just having fun" and "They don't want to improve". Before launching TheJaKaTaK on May 1st, 2012, I spend around 6 months in the bronze league, meeting bronze players, talking with them after matches, asking them if they're frustrated, and what their plan is for improvement. Some said things like, "Whatever, I don't care, I'm just having fun, it's just a game, etc." but when I talked to them long enough, and they had enough time to cool down about their loss to a worker rush or an unexpected attack, they took it all back, admitted they were frustrated and asked for help. This did not happen once, but many times over. I think it makes perfect sense that the biggest thing keeping bronze players from promotion is not that they don't care, or aren't trying, but that they are frustrated and lost. Many of them were trying build orders and strategies, but couldn't find the motivation to stick with them because it felt boring to them.
It is important to note that Starcraft, like any other skill, requires time, focus, and consistency to improve. There were some bronze players I spoke with that simply weren't playing enough to get promoted. This is another thing that higher level players often times note, sometimes in the abrasive and unhelpful, "Just play more games noob" style. Right now, you only need a couple months where you are averaging 1-2 focused games a day to get yourself into the silver league. But as you climb higher, you will need to put in more time, fortunately, as you get higher in the leagues, the play becomes more challenging and fun (IMO) so putting in more time will likely be a scheduling problem and not a motivational problem. When setting your league goal, make sure it is reasonably in line with the time you have to play.
I recently watched this video from extra credits about Skill/Power ratio and how it can be beneficial or detrimental to the game depending on how it is set up. They use the example of the zerg rush in the original starcraft (when the spawning pool was 150 minerals instead of 200). Its definitely popped into my head to develop a strategical improvement system that chooses strategies in the order of less Skill/Power ratio to greater Skill/Power ratio, but that will likely be a long ways away. For now, instead of choosing strategies in order of less to greater Skill/Power ratio, TheStaircase unit list will be in order from least Skill/Power Ratio to most Skill/Power ratio. This of course is only a suggestion, my hope is that it makes choosing units easier for you.
This is a constantly evolving community project, many people have helped in the development of this project thus far, and I'm sure that many more will in the future. Please post any ideas, criticisms, and opinions in an intelligent, humble, and helpful way, so we can all discuss and improve TheStaircase together.
Remember, the content of your idea is more important than your league here. Feel free to include it if you think its absolutely necessary, but also remember that everyone's experience is a valid and important contribution to this system. Keeping the discussion to the ideas and their content, and not the person who is contributing the idea, is one of the best ways to keep things constructive.
On October 10 2012 04:43 shogeki wrote: Sweet! This has deserved its own thread for a long time. Good job!
Thanks man, I'm really hoping that this brings in new ideas and improvements, as well as explain in a more complete way what it is we're trying to accomplish and why we've done what we've done so far. :D
Imagination is more important than knowlege
reikai United States. October 10 2012 05:12. Posts 307
This is a fantastic fail safe for players trying to improve. I think mastering bite size bits and applying them in practice later is fantastic and is actually the basis of almost ALL education.
That said the quote is very poorly written on the spreadsheet. I think it is missing a full stop on the third line.
This is a complete waste of time. You cannot simply become better in any reasonable amount of time by limiting yourself to bad play. You're telling people to only build Zealots/Marine/Zerglings for level 1, and moving up to a few units on the next levels without micro'ing their units at all or anything. It's just fucking pointless. This game is not that simple and there's no reason to practice this way, because it's 100% non-viable in any high level of play. Why would you practice a mechanically and strategically complex game using only 1 variable? If you want to master StarCraft 2, then you shouldn't play like an idiot on purpose. If you seriously cannot find yourself capable of doing 120'ish+ APM and correct unit compositions/timings every game, then you need to forget about any kind of goal of "improving" or becoming one of the best players, just play for lols, because you will be a joke forever.
StarCraft 2 is not a game of long-term improvement or skill. There is 1 game, one 1v1 on ladder. or a Bo3/5/7/etc in a tournament settings. Why should you have a goal to have an "SQ" of a certain number and no supply blocks with only zealots/marines/zerglings? It has no relevance to standard and correct play. Once you implement more structures/units into the game the relationships fall apart, and what you did with only 1 unit doesn't work with 2, 3,etc. anymore. You cannot "master" this game in small baby steps. You will master it by playing the correct way over and over. You obviously know nothing about RTS gaming, and you should consider a different hobby, because you're going no where.
User was banned (PBU).
Last edit: 2012-10-10 11:07:07
rikter United States. October 10 2012 06:15. Posts 207
These are some responses from the other thread which is now about streaming, moved here for convenience.
@Jdub "Theoretically you could achieve cost efficiency by out-macroing your opponent so hard that your zealot/stalker force can trade well with a MMM or roach army, but such a requirement I would agree is against the philosophy of TheLevels.
Cost efficiency comes from unit control and strategy. Positioning, timing windows, composition and micro all have an effect on how much damage your units can potentially do. Making more units than is necessary is the opposite of efficiency, its just a workaround, and it has a limit (200 supply)
@shogeki "Efficiency in trading, in my opinion, is something more important when you are the one trying to win on fewer bases than your opponent with some kind of timing attack. It feels to be against the spirit of TheLevels, which to me was always get way more stuff than your opponent and win through "power overwhelming" mode. That's not to say that you can't trade efficiently playing this style - you totally can - but I feel it's a poor metric for the style.
Like I said above, once you max thats it, and if you arent efficient it is going to be a problem, even on equal bases. Power overwhelming is the timing attack, because by design you are hitting as hard as you possibly can at a point where your opponent is weak.
@Jak "As far as forcing people to choose a build from a list, I think that cuts way to far into Autonomy than is necessary. Giving a link to places where they can find builds if they want to try them might be a good compromise, but I do not think forcing a player to do a build is a good idea. If they choose to, that's great, but it should be their choice, not mine.
How about just the proper amount of buildings per base, with no restriction on what they are, or the proper amount of workers per base. Or is this just a training method to work in hotkeys, because thats what it seems like sort of. Those are some limits that give people lots of room to do stuff while still learning the very basics of managing an economy. Without those things though, it seems like just a way to familiarize yourself with the hotkeys.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
Antylamon United States. October 10 2012 06:22. Posts 1364
This is a complete waste of time. You cannot simply become better in any reasonable amount of time by limiting yourself to bad play. You're telling people to only build Zealots/Marine/Zerglings for level 1, and moving up to a few units on the next levels without micro'ing their units at all or anything. It's just fucking pointless. This game is not that simple and there's no reason to practice this way, because it's 100% non-viable in any high level of play. Why would you practice a mechanically and strategically complex game using only 1 variable? If you want to master StarCraft 2, then you shouldn't play like an idiot on purpose. If you seriously cannot find yourself capable of doing 120'ish+ APM and correct unit compositions/timings every game, then you need to forget about any kind of goal of "improving" or becoming one of the best players, just play for lols, because you will be a joke forever.
StarCraft 2 is not a game of long-term improvement or skill. There is 1 game, one 1v1 on ladder. or a Bo3/5/7/etc in a tournament settings. Why should you have a goal to have an "SQ" of a certain number and no supply blocks with only zealots/marines/zerglings? It has no relevance to standard and correct play. Once you implement more structures/units into the game the relationships fall apart, and what you did with only 1 unit doesn't work with 2, 3,etc. anymore. You cannot "master" this game in small baby steps. You will master it by playing the correct way over and over. You obviously know nothing about RTS gaming, and you should consider a different hobby, because you're going no where.
Try telling that to the people who have clearly improved as a result of this method.
The goal is not to limit your options. The goal is to have less to worry about.
You don't juggle ten balls on your first try. You start with one and work your way up. TheLevels is very similar to this.
Last edit: 2012-10-10 06:22:48
ishyishy United States. October 10 2012 06:24. Posts 795
Dont think it needs to be this complicated. Improving at the game comes down to 1 thing: enjoyment. It really is that simple. If you enjoy the game, you will play it when you have the time, and you will eventually get better at it because you are encouraged to play more. If you dont enjoy it, and you are miserable and frustrated, you will spend less time playing and wont even want to imrove.
If i stopped to think about this much crap every time i play, id be wasting time. Just grind games, hopefully you enjoy the game, and the improvement will come. That doesnt mean you have no skill ceiling; you might hit a wall somewhere, and you should be ok with that. If you arent, then sorry there is nothing anyone else can do for you. Either stay mad or move on (i suggest league of legends, far far easier and stress-free ).
snively United States. October 10 2012 06:29. Posts 1080
On October 10 2012 06:15 rikter wrote: @Jdub "Theoretically you could achieve cost efficiency by out-macroing your opponent so hard that your zealot/stalker force can trade well with a MMM or roach army, but such a requirement I would agree is against the philosophy of TheLevels.
Cost efficiency comes from unit control and strategy. Positioning, timing windows, composition and micro all have an effect on how much damage your units can potentially do. Making more units than is necessary is the opposite of efficiency, its just a workaround, and it has a limit (200 supply)
I'm not exactly sure what your point is. Composition affects how much damage your units can potentially do, which means it affects their efficiency. So with TheLevels you are going to have unit compositions that are not cost efficient. I'm not sure what you mean by "more units than is necessary" -- what is the "necessary" number of units? The bare minimum to win a game? The size of your army, while obviously limited by the supply cap, can increase its cost efficiency. For example, 50 marines v. 10 zealots and you probably won't lose more than 2-3 marines (very cost efficient). Try 30 marines against 10 zealots and you probably win the battle, but lose a whole bunch of marines. This is all I was saying. If you are using TheLevels, the only way you will achieve having a smaller resources lost total than your opponent is by outmacroing them to such a degree that your inferior composition still achieves cost efficiency.
What part of my argument are you disagreeing with?
Edit: I think your point that what I'm saying is a "workaround" to achieve cost efficiency was exactly the point that I was trying to make. My whole point is that the only way you will achieve cost efficiency when doing a build that is "macro as much as you can, build as many of these low-tier units as you can, and then try to micro them against your opponent" is going to be from having such an overwhelming force that you don't lose very many units at all. Unit control can't make equal supply of unupgraded zealot/stalker cost efficient against MMM.
Last edit: 2012-10-10 06:38:59
ThyLastPenguin United Kingdom. October 10 2012 06:31. Posts 86
On October 10 2012 06:14 GoldenPro wrote: This is a complete waste of time. You cannot simply become better in any reasonable amount of time by limiting yourself to bad play. You're telling people to only build Zealots/Marine/Zerglings for level 1, and moving up to a few units on the next levels without micro'ing their units at all or anything. It's just fucking pointless. This game is not that simple and there's no reason to practice this way, because it's 100% non-viable in any high level of play. Why would you practice a mechanically and strategically complex game using only 1 variable? If you want to master StarCraft 2, then you shouldn't play like an idiot on purpose. If you seriously cannot find yourself capable of doing 120'ish+ APM and correct unit compositions/timings every game, then you need to forget about any kind of goal of "improving" or becoming one of the best players, just play for lols, because you will be a joke forever.
StarCraft 2 is not a game of long-term improvement or skill. There is 1 game, one 1v1 on ladder. or a Bo3/5/7/etc in a tournament settings. Why should you have a goal to have an "SQ" of a certain number and no supply blocks with only zealots/marines/zerglings? It has no relevance to standard and correct play. Once you implement more structures/units into the game the relationships fall apart, and what you did with only 1 unit doesn't work with 2, 3,etc. anymore. You cannot "master" this game in small baby steps. You will master it by playing the correct way over and over. You obviously know nothing about RTS gaming, and you should consider a different hobby, because you're going no where.
Wow you need to calm down.
First off. 120+ apm is not something that everyone juts hops into learning starcraft and finding their APM at. APM of 120+ is picked up from learning the mechanics and then getting used to being mechanically better and better until you are doing things faster and as such have more spare APM/time and also more APM being put into mechanics. The thing about learning with just zealots is because macro is 100% the reason people are still in low levels. I got to plat with only macro and my macro still sucks compared to a master league. Macro is so important and it's also a lot of stuff to get used to and get good at. There are really just a few basic things to get good at in macro though, and then you just do these basic things more complex etc. How much easier would it be to spend all your money on pure zealots than thinking "Hmm. I see he has x. Well, I can build y and counter it if I do z" for a new player? Compare this to being perfect at making zealots. Then you just say "Okay, I'll do the same, except this time I'll do it with stalkers and zealots".
TL;DR you seem mad and need to broaden your horizons.
"Stephano is pretty much saving SC2 one hidden knife and pedophile joke at a time." - Fionn
Czarnodziej Poland. October 10 2012 06:33. Posts 567
I really like The Levels and I think it has tremendous potential. I especially liked it simplicity and clear goals.
On the other hand I think The Levels v.4.0 is a failure when compared to previous version.
1) The Levels v. 3xx : simple goals, easy to follow for players regardless of skill, experience or amount of knowledge regarding the game. Easy to pick up, hard to master, fun to play and experience. 2) 4.0 - a load of random ideas stacked on top of each other in order to satisfy the needs of everyone. It lacks the most important thing any development absolutely requires - a focus. It tries to cater to needs of both novice and advanced players, which is bound to fail. You can't magically bridge the gap between them.
"2 - Scout, React, Make Decisions, Review your replay." - its sounds like telling Average Joe to go rob a bank and expect him to succeed. This blows my mind, because I remember that whole idea of The Levels was to avoid these type of things. Why the sudden change when you said yourself that it is a terrible approach to learn sc2?
Antylamon United States. October 10 2012 06:33. Posts 1364
On October 10 2012 06:24 ishyishy wrote: Dont think it needs to be this complicated. Improving at the game comes down to 1 thing: enjoyment. It really is that simple. If you enjoy the game, you will play it when you have the time, and you will eventually get better at it because you are encouraged to play more. If you dont enjoy it, and you are miserable and frustrated, you will spend less time playing and wont even want to imrove.
If i stopped to think about this much crap every time i play, id be wasting time. Just grind games, hopefully you enjoy the game, and the improvement will come. That doesnt mean you have no skill ceiling; you might hit a wall somewhere, and you should be ok with that. If you arent, then sorry there is nothing anyone else can do for you. Either stay mad or move on (i suggest league of legends, far far easier and stress-free ).
The goal is not exactly to sit back and enjoy the game, either. It helps people visibly improve, which in of itself is fun for some people, including myself.
Laddering all day with no other intentions in mind, besides vague things like "improving" and "getting used to a build order" is clearly not the most efficient way of improving. Planning it out like this makes it that much more efficient, even if it does seem like triple-overkill. I'm sure Jak is all about going the next step, what with theCore and now theLevels being designed to be very planned out and efficient.
Last edit: 2012-10-10 06:34:54
SwordfishConspiracy United States. October 10 2012 06:34. Posts 146
On October 10 2012 06:24 ishyishy wrote: Dont think it needs to be this complicated. Improving at the game comes down to 1 thing: enjoyment. It really is that simple. If you enjoy the game, you will play it when you have the time, and you will eventually get better at it because you are encouraged to play more. If you dont enjoy it, and you are miserable and frustrated, you will spend less time playing and wont even want to imrove.
If i stopped to think about this much crap every time i play, id be wasting time. Just grind games, hopefully you enjoy the game, and the improvement will come. That doesnt mean you have no skill ceiling; you might hit a wall somewhere, and you should be ok with that. If you arent, then sorry there is nothing anyone else can do for you. Either stay mad or move on (i suggest league of legends, far far easier and stress-free ).
If your goal is to play the game purely for enjoyment, sure, but this is for people who want to improve their skills and play the game at a higher level. Just saying "next game I'll play better" is a really poor way to improve. SC2 is a macro focused game; it's much, much, much more important to macro effectively than it is to play with good strategy. This system makes sure your macro is top notch before you event start to think about complex strategies. And there's a lot of really effective things you can do even at the early levels with upgrade timing attacks, harass play, etc. I've won quite a few games in mid-high diamond by massing lings and harass + counter attacks.
SwordfishConspiracy
StateofReverie United States. October 10 2012 06:35. Posts 632
For my motivation, I turned starcraft 2 into something that is fun for me to get better at. Can easily sit down now when I have free time and just sit and play 8-10 games in a row and enjoy winning or losing, although lately I have been winning a lot...its like terran just got an invisible buff haha
SwordfishConspiracy United States. October 10 2012 06:40. Posts 146
Another thing to mention is that this system is WONDERFUL for learning a new keyboard layout. It limits the things you can build so you don't have to memorize all the keys at once. First you learn the basic production structures, then you slowly work in tech, upgrades, and spells until you've used everything in the game.
If anyone was thinking about switching over to something different (like TheCore which I highly recommend) and were intimidated by the learning curve, this makes it a lot easier.
SwordfishConspiracy
ishyishy United States. October 10 2012 06:49. Posts 795
On October 10 2012 06:24 ishyishy wrote: Dont think it needs to be this complicated. Improving at the game comes down to 1 thing: enjoyment. It really is that simple. If you enjoy the game, you will play it when you have the time, and you will eventually get better at it because you are encouraged to play more. If you dont enjoy it, and you are miserable and frustrated, you will spend less time playing and wont even want to imrove.
If i stopped to think about this much crap every time i play, id be wasting time. Just grind games, hopefully you enjoy the game, and the improvement will come. That doesnt mean you have no skill ceiling; you might hit a wall somewhere, and you should be ok with that. If you arent, then sorry there is nothing anyone else can do for you. Either stay mad or move on (i suggest league of legends, far far easier and stress-free ).
If your goal is to play the game purely for enjoyment, sure, but this is for people who want to improve their skills and play the game at a higher level. Just saying "next game I'll play better" is a really poor way to improve. SC2 is a macro focused game; it's much, much, much more important to macro effectively than it is to play with good strategy. This system makes sure your macro is top notch before you event start to think about complex strategies. And there's a lot of really effective things you can do even at the early levels with upgrade timing attacks, harass play, etc. I've won quite a few games in mid-high diamond by massing lings and harass + counter attacks.
Ok so wait...are you spouting all this macro nonsense in an attempt to argue with me about something? lol
Look, if forcing yourself to play and stressing yourself over improvement is your way of enjoying the game, then by all means keep doing it. Like i said, enjoyment is the only thing that matters at the end of the day. If you know anyone that improves at a game or a hobby or a sport by hating it and being frustrated over it with no enjoyment, please let me know, id like to meet this person lol.
ishyishy United States. October 10 2012 06:51. Posts 795
On October 10 2012 06:24 ishyishy wrote: Dont think it needs to be this complicated. Improving at the game comes down to 1 thing: enjoyment. It really is that simple. If you enjoy the game, you will play it when you have the time, and you will eventually get better at it because you are encouraged to play more. If you dont enjoy it, and you are miserable and frustrated, you will spend less time playing and wont even want to imrove.
If i stopped to think about this much crap every time i play, id be wasting time. Just grind games, hopefully you enjoy the game, and the improvement will come. That doesnt mean you have no skill ceiling; you might hit a wall somewhere, and you should be ok with that. If you arent, then sorry there is nothing anyone else can do for you. Either stay mad or move on (i suggest league of legends, far far easier and stress-free ).
The goal is not exactly to sit back and enjoy the game, either. It helps people visibly improve, which in of itself is fun for some people, including myself.
Laddering all day with no other intentions in mind, besides vague things like "improving" and "getting used to a build order" is clearly not the most efficient way of improving. Planning it out like this makes it that much more efficient, even if it does seem like triple-overkill. I'm sure Jak is all about going the next step, what with theCore and now theLevels being designed to be very planned out and efficient.
I think your first sentence contradicts itself You are saying enjoyment is not the only important thing, and then saying that you have fun by stressing yourself. Well...then you are enjoying the way you are playing, which still leads to my point :D
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GoldenPro England. October 10 2012 06:14. Posts 1
