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| vOdToasT Sweden. November 05 2012 21:03. Posts 1567 | Profile Blog # |
Is 12 pool supposed to beat 9 pool speed on Fighting Spirit?
Whenever I go 12 pool vs 9 pool I lose. He just has more lings than I do. I just want an answer from good players, yes or no. That's all I need to know. If the answer is yes, then I'll continue trying to go 12 pool until I get it to work.Last edit: 2012-11-05 21:04:34 |
| | If you see an amazing game, or moment within a game, on any Twitch.tv Brood War stream, PM me a link to the archived vod, tell me when it happens, and I'll upload that part as a clip to Youtube. |
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| amazingxkcd United States. November 06 2012 00:50. Posts 2704 | Profile # |
On November 05 2012 21:03 vOdToasT wrote:
Is 12 pool supposed to beat 9 pool speed on Fighting Spirit?
Whenever I go 12 pool vs 9 pool I lose. He just has more lings than I do. I just want an answer from good players, yes or no. That's all I need to know. If the answer is yes, then I'll continue trying to go 12 pool until I get it to work.
Can you link replay of this? |
| | "Did this guy just randomly finger me?" - Sayle | | Flash: He smiles because he loves the game. So much, that he enjoys every lesson from it. |
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| vOdToasT Sweden. November 06 2012 01:16. Posts 1567 | Profile Blog # |
On November 06 2012 00:50 amazingxkcd wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 21:03 vOdToasT wrote:
Is 12 pool supposed to beat 9 pool speed on Fighting Spirit?
Whenever I go 12 pool vs 9 pool I lose. He just has more lings than I do. I just want an answer from good players, yes or no. That's all I need to know. If the answer is yes, then I'll continue trying to go 12 pool until I get it to work.
Can you link replay of this?
This is just a question. You don't need a replay to answer a yes or no question. |
| | If you see an amazing game, or moment within a game, on any Twitch.tv Brood War stream, PM me a link to the archived vod, tell me when it happens, and I'll upload that part as a clip to Youtube. |
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| KaiGreene November 06 2012 02:14. Posts 110 | Profile # |
On November 06 2012 01:16 vOdToasT wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:50 amazingxkcd wrote:
On November 05 2012 21:03 vOdToasT wrote:
Is 12 pool supposed to beat 9 pool speed on Fighting Spirit?
Whenever I go 12 pool vs 9 pool I lose. He just has more lings than I do. I just want an answer from good players, yes or no. That's all I need to know. If the answer is yes, then I'll continue trying to go 12 pool until I get it to work.
Can you link replay of this?
This is just a question. You don't need a replay to answer a yes or no question.
He wants to see (I think) whether the 12pooler in this case maybe sneaked a few drones in as to losing to more zerglings because with 12pool vs 9pool you have same amount of lings with constant production (your lings have shorter reinforcement route). |
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| ninini Sweden. November 06 2012 03:06. Posts 1181 | Profile # |
I'm pretty sure 12 pool, 11 gas, 10 hatch can deal with any aggression, but it's possible that you might have to react differently to different builds and followups. Look at the replay(s) and make sure that you always have a equal amount of lings. If you don't, at some point, figure out how to fix that. It's zvz, so it's very easy to analyze and figure out why you lost. If you're mainly struggling at the speed timing, make sure that at that timing, you have some kind of advantage that can help you stall for your own speed, such as sunkens or more lings, and if it's really necessary, pull some drones.
If the builds you're facing are not too unorthodox, I would recommend studying progamer vods. Just do what they're doing and you'll be fine. |
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| amazingxkcd United States. November 06 2012 03:11. Posts 2704 | Profile # |
On November 06 2012 02:14 KaiGreene wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:16 vOdToasT wrote:
On November 06 2012 00:50 amazingxkcd wrote:
On November 05 2012 21:03 vOdToasT wrote:
Is 12 pool supposed to beat 9 pool speed on Fighting Spirit?
Whenever I go 12 pool vs 9 pool I lose. He just has more lings than I do. I just want an answer from good players, yes or no. That's all I need to know. If the answer is yes, then I'll continue trying to go 12 pool until I get it to work.
Can you link replay of this?
This is just a question. You don't need a replay to answer a yes or no question.
He wants to see (I think) whether the 12pooler in this case maybe sneaked a few drones in as to losing to more zerglings because with 12pool vs 9pool you have same amount of lings with constant production (your lings have shorter reinforcement route).
I just wanted to see if there was other issues besides the build orders because 12pool will be out in time and your lings out by the time that his 9pool is coming your way. 12pool should be ahead of 9pool with proper micro |
| | "Did this guy just randomly finger me?" - Sayle | | Flash: He smiles because he loves the game. So much, that he enjoys every lesson from it. |
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| asiantraceur United States. November 06 2012 05:34. Posts 93 | Profile # |
| 12 pool should be able to hold off 9pool easily, as long as you keep up equal zergling production the numbers will balance out from defender's advantage; it'd be easier to see a replay so we can see what you did wrong but just make sure your lings arent out of position and that you don't build too many drones...also if its desperate use your drones to supplement your lings... |
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 Harem United States. November 06 2012 08:07. Posts 9351 | Profile # |
Yes, it can.
However, you need to pull at least 2 drones to help defend nat. They really make a huge difference in defending otherwise you just die.
Are you sending first ovie to nearest nat to see lings (potentially) come down from ramp as they spawn? Are you not saving larva when pool finishes based on your read of him?
You also didn't mention if you are going lair or speed first with 12pool. This makes a huge difference in defending vs it as the difference when he has speed and you don't with 12 pool lair first is pretty abusable. Also, if speed first then you are making sure to pull at least 1 drone off gas after starting speed right? Just need patience and not engaging too hastily/badly when he is pecking at your nat hat until speed finishes. (assuming speed first yourself here) You really want to have a good read of his zergling movements and pre-emptively blocking them ie having 2 lings on hold pos on ramp if you expect an attempted feint into main runby.
Anyways, one of the keys in defending vs it is ensuring that you don't let speedlings into your main as defending vs speedlings with slowlings on multiple fronts is just a huge headache that no one ever wants to deal with
It's zvz, so it's very easy to analyze and figure out why you lost.
This isn't true at all. It's easily one of the hardest matchups to figure out what and where went wrong. Most people don't even have an idea of what to look for and don't know how to watch or analyze zvz vods and don't have many reliable sources for learning. So, this just leads to people going, "oh maybe i just need more mutas and micro is terrible????" when there were a million other factors going on.
Don't have time to further elaborate on this but I'll just quote Day[9] cause he is pretty cool.
On October 29 2009 19:22 Day[9] wrote:
It's a good sign if you're struggling because ZvZ is the absolute hardest matchup in the game (i will stand by this to the grave).
Part of what is likely screwing up your mindset is the fact that in the other 8 matchups, there is a clear beginning, middle, and endgame. Unfortunately, in ZvZ, everything "appears" to be early game. In fact what's happening is that, due to the intensity and fast pace of the matchup, the early, mid, and late game get squished together into a small 8 minute timeframe. What seems like part of the "opening" is in fact your midgame plan.
As a result, many different openings directly lead to a unique midgame.
On December 05 2007 10:01 Day[9] wrote:
zvz isn't rock paper scissors
its just really really really hard lol
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| | [iHs]h8m ｡◕‿◕｡ 저그 보고 싶어요 정은지 RIP aers ㅠㅠ |
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| Assault_1 Canada. November 06 2012 12:01. Posts 1347 | Profile # |
Instead of this I suggest you watch 12pool vs 9pool zvz progames and pretty much just copy them (obviously dont copy the losing guy).
In 12pool, you always get speed before lair if you don't know their build (because it could be 9pool, in which case you get raped). That means the first 100 gas, after 6 lings, then take a drone or two off gas. depends what happens next, make sure you keep making lings, bring a couple drones, dont freak out if he starts banging ur hatchery, just dance forward/backward and he might or might not attack (if you stay in formation he'll lose if he attacks). |
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| vOdToasT Sweden. November 06 2012 16:15. Posts 1567 | Profile Blog # |
| Thank you for the responses. I will continue trying to do 12 pool, since it seems that it can in fact defend vs 9 pool. |
| | If you see an amazing game, or moment within a game, on any Twitch.tv Brood War stream, PM me a link to the archived vod, tell me when it happens, and I'll upload that part as a clip to Youtube. |
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| CardinalAllin November 07 2012 04:57. Posts 164 | Profile # | |
| | BW Map:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412375 |
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| ninini Sweden. November 07 2012 07:59. Posts 1181 | Profile # |
On November 06 2012 08:07 Harem wrote:This isn't true at all. It's easily one of the hardest matchups to figure out what and where went wrong. Most people don't even have an idea of what to look for and don't know how to watch or analyze zvz vods and don't have many reliable sources for learning. So, this just leads to people going, "oh maybe i just need more mutas and micro is terrible????" when there were a million other factors going on.
What I mean is, ZvZ is the fastest matchup, and the unit compositions are very stale, and it's a mirror matchup. This means that you typically see situations where you have the same amount of lings and the same amount of muta/scourge. So if you lost because of bad micro, the replay will clearly tell you this, and if you lost because you were overwhelmed with units, the replay will clearly tell you this too. If you were overwhelmed, examine your build and see if you can adapt differently next time. Sometimes, when you're not doing mirror builds it's not possible to get out enough lings or air units at the right timing, and in those situations you need to find other solutions, and this is something you can learn from watching progamers play.
ZvZ is the least forgiving matchup, but it's really straightforward. It's hard making the right decisions in the moment, and every bad decision and mistake hits you tenfold, compared to other matchups, but analyzing ZvZ's is much easier than playing.
In TvP for instance, if you lose in the typical endgame as 3-4 base terran, some ppl will say that you should have harassed more/less/more effectively, defended better against harass, or adjusted your push timings, or microed or macroed better. Typically they will all be correct to a varying extent, and it can be hard to figure out what the main factor was. In ZvZ, however, mistakes tend to lose you the game immediately. That's why I think it's much easier to figure out what went wrong. The games are also shorter, and less eco oriented, so the patterns are much clearer. |
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| Maximusjesse November 08 2012 14:59. Posts 24 | Profile # |
The best and most popular way to play ZvZ in current meta goes something like this:
Firstly, I've heard it being called by Koreans as the 10 drone build. It goes like this:
12p
11 extractor
11 natural expansion
After that, it is incredibly easy: make only zerglings. You can add a drone here and there, but it will weaken your push later. If opponent went 9p and he is close spawns, pull 2 drones. Otherwise, your 6 should be enough. Rally all zerglings to your natural expansion, and make a line. With your first 6, you can make a line with your natural hatchery and the wall, as you get more you can make a line with the choke. Get lair first, then speed! Your lair timing is very important, as your spire can almost match a 9p lair if you go lair first. After lair, pull 1 drone off gas, only let 2 mine. You should have 8 on minerals. You play defensive until one timing. You want to engage when your opponent's spire is 50% done, so send your zerglings around 25%. You should have a TON of zerglings.
The good part is, even if you do not kill drones or snipe spire, the opponent will have to make zerglings to counter your zerglings, meaning he will not have the larva to make mutas. You should then have a 3 muta advantage, which you can use to hold off ling pressure or use to kill drones. From here it is easy game.
This is a very defensive ZvZ build, so it is very easy to play. It is very strong and easy to execute, giving you good econ as well as midgame aggression. It was really popular last Proleague, I think there are some good hyuk and soulkey games that were played this way. GLHFLast edit: 2012-11-08 15:08:24 |
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| Assault_1 Canada. November 10 2012 23:26. Posts 1347 | Profile # |
thats 9pool lair, u pretty much have to spore vs it
On November 08 2012 14:59 Maximusjesse wrote:
Get lair first, then speed! Your lair timing is very important, as your spire can almost match a 9p lair if you go lair first. After lair, pull 1 drone off gas, only let 2 mine.
pretty sure that's wrong, you generally always get speed first if you don't know their build. if you get lair first, they 9p speed and keep massing lings and attack right before ur speed finishes I doubt you can hold it. its also really hard to micro slowlings vs fastlings. can you find a rep where he went 12pool lair vs 9p speed? |
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| CardinalAllin November 10 2012 23:39. Posts 164 | Profile # |
| Yeah, vodtoast originally asks about 9 pool with speed first but then later in the op and in the comments he just says 9 pool so I linked it. |
| | BW Map:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412375 |
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 ArvickHero November 11 2012 04:38. Posts 9380 | Profile Blog # |
I think it's a bit fallacious to go about claiming ZvZ is the hardest match up. For a player like Day9, whose strength was his management play, it's understandable why he'd consider ZvZ to be the "hardest". But for a player who has killer control but weak management, ZvP/T could be considered much harder.
And all matchups, for the foreigner scene, are pretty abysmal in regards to sources of reliable learning. ZvP has almost no modern guides, there's practically nothing about latemech or how to counter it, TvT is a mystery to many and foriegner PvP has its own weird metagame going on. So ZvZ is not unique in that aspect
Back on topic, my (general) understanding of ZvZ 9p v 12p is that you need to pull drones along w/ lings vs 9p.. 12p has the advantage over 9p but your control needs to be just as good as the other player's. Ofc, like harem stated there a lot of finer details to it, but honestly the best way to go about is to grind practice games vs it |
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| Chef November 12 2012 10:34. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
12 pool has an advantage over 9pool...
9pool speed has an advantage over 12hatch.
By no means is the game over if you are on the disadvantageous side tho, as you have proven to your opponents lol. I think you might have trouble with the fundamentals of ZvZ if you feel like you're at a BO disadvantage vs 9pool when you 12 pool. Your opponent is the one that has to make something happen, because you have more drones and your lings will hatch before his arrive / as they arrive. You just keep making lings and watch what he is doing with your overlord. If he isn't getting lair and is just continuing to make more and more lings, sim city a sunken and you've pretty much won.
If day9 says zvz is the hardest matchup, it's because it's unlike any other matchup in the game. It's really important to understand larvae management and scouting technique in ZvZ, or else you lose in stupid ways. It hurts you if you don't know the advantages of your own build. If you're losing 12pool to 9pool, you're probably not acknowledging that the 9pool player has the aggressive role and you have the defensive. Or your ling micro is really bad.
I'm not sure what people are talking about with pulling drones. I would only do that if I 12 hatches at my nat. Otherwise if I were losing the ling battle for whatever reason (which I shouldn't be) I would run back to my mineral line and drill his lings. I wouldn't pull drones to my ramp tho, unless I accidentally skimped on lings when I shouldn't have but thought I would hold the ramp if I pulled a drone or two. Unless you are going like 12pool 11hatch? In that case maybe, since they are going to be transferred anyway soon...Last edit: 2012-11-12 10:38:43 |
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| Jaevlaterran Sweden. November 20 2012 00:19. Posts 381 | Profile # |
On November 08 2012 14:59 Maximusjesse wrote:
The best and most popular way to play ZvZ in current meta goes something like this:
Firstly, I've heard it being called by Koreans as the 10 drone build. It goes like this:
12p
11 extractor
11 natural expansion
After that, it is incredibly easy: make only zerglings. You can add a drone here and there, but it will weaken your push later. If opponent went 9p and he is close spawns, pull 2 drones. Otherwise, your 6 should be enough. Rally all zerglings to your natural expansion, and make a line. With your first 6, you can make a line with your natural hatchery and the wall, as you get more you can make a line with the choke. Get lair first, then speed! Your lair timing is very important, as your spire can almost match a 9p lair if you go lair first. After lair, pull 1 drone off gas, only let 2 mine. You should have 8 on minerals. You play defensive until one timing. You want to engage when your opponent's spire is 50% done, so send your zerglings around 25%. You should have a TON of zerglings.
The good part is, even if you do not kill drones or snipe spire, the opponent will have to make zerglings to counter your zerglings, meaning he will not have the larva to make mutas. You should then have a 3 muta advantage, which you can use to hold off ling pressure or use to kill drones. From here it is easy game.
This is a very defensive ZvZ build, so it is very easy to play. It is very strong and easy to execute, giving you good econ as well as midgame aggression. It was really popular last Proleague, I think there are some good hyuk and soulkey games that were played this way. GLHF
how does this build work vs 12 hatch openings? |
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| asiantraceur United States. November 20 2012 02:00. Posts 93 | Profile # |
| Kinda like how this does against 9 pool, lings arrive just as other guys lings pop...And his hatch is a bit earlier... It's not a game ender tho |
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| CardinalAllin November 20 2012 02:31. Posts 164 | Profile # | |
| | BW Map:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412375 |
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