| boredrex United States. November 08 2012 14:30. Posts 119 | Profile # |
Hello TL.
I'm enjoying reading all of the suggestions on how to balance HotS and make it fun again. I read in a post that David Kim is interested in reworking the Raven and Void Ray link here I thought that perhaps we can have an actual discussion on how to rework the raven.
Before we begin, rework to me sounds a lot more aggressive than tweak. This means that in HotS, we could possibly have a completely different unit. However, it will likely remain a caster built from the starport.
Allow me to pose a few of my ideas. My ideas are tweaks, but I think they would help
1) Auto turret at the moment is a fairly blah ability. However, I found that it is particularly good at killing widow mines, since it cannot target the turret. However, if you drop a turret adjacent to the mine, your raven dies. As a result, I think increasing the deployment range of the auto turret would be helpful. In addition, I would like it to be able to be dropped on lowered supply depots, creep tumors and units, just like a forcefield. Also, I think it would be cool if the auto turret had detection for as far as it can see so it can effectively deal with burrowed units without the raven being there.
2) Seeker Missile needs either to be replaced or reduced in cost. 125 energy is just too much. For 125 energy, I want a freaking missile that shoots at 9 range that deals 100 AoE damage like a tank shot. OR maybe a shot that does 160 damage to one target and 40 splash....sounds familiar....Currently, having a missile that does about the damage of two tank shots on air and ground units for 125 energy is really not acceptable.
3) A popular one on this forum is to replace HSM with Irradiate....
4) My final thought is to reduce the amount of upgrades needed. Make corvid reactor one upgrade and one other upgrade that combines range, armor, and duration into one. Building armor and hi-sec auto targeting should remain, but they should not affect the raven (or alternatively, they should further enhance the ravens abilities.)
Happy reworking!Last edit: 2012-11-08 14:34:13 |
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| PrsdntKmacho United States. November 08 2012 14:42. Posts 19 | Profile # |
Wow you managed to write so much and say so little
User was warned for this post |
| | I thought yo head would be bigger... |
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| dragonblade369 Canada. November 08 2012 15:02. Posts 403 | Profile # |
| I agree that auto-turrets are... really bad.... they should change that with a spell that grants (aoe or single target) mech unit like +30 more armor for 5 seconds. |
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| crbox Canada. November 08 2012 15:02. Posts 871 | Profile # |
I like your first point to increase autoturret range
Also, It'd be nice if blizzard would make it that you can cast them like infested terran. I mean that you could place it anywhere, because it's hard to ravens to put autoturret during a big battle, and it's not worth your precious apm |
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| boredrex United States. November 08 2012 15:03. Posts 119 | Profile # |
On November 08 2012 14:42 PrsdntKmacho wrote:
Wow you managed to write so much and say so little
Thanks, it's a talent I picked up doing college course work.
Also, crbox, your suggestion to make it like infested terran is actually what I really meant, not like forcefield. I was thinking it would be awkward if you stacked about 30 turrets in one 2x2 box. Not sure why my mind didn't go straight there.Last edit: 2012-11-08 15:06:20 |
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| MoonCricket November 08 2012 15:14. Posts 205 | Profile # |
| First things first, you need to ask yourself what roll the Raven should assume in the Terran army and what current design problems the Raven should address. If they re-designed the Raven to be a support unit for Mech in TvP match ups then it could potentially replace Auto Turret with Lockdown in order to hard counter Colossus and Immortal for example. |
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| Freeborn Germany. November 08 2012 16:04. Posts 270 | Profile # |
I am pretty sure that blizzard will not add any bw units or skills to the game at this point, so stop asking for it already.
As for the raven - it's actualy a really good unit and auto turret are pretty good too. But it's simply not usable enough for it's price and the time it takes to mass them.
My suggestion would be too cut the gas costs a little and decrease the buildtime.
Then increase auto turret drop range and maybe lower energy cost.
But remove HSM and instead give it to the viking as an upgrade, each viking gets 1 missile.
That would make ravens more easily available and massable but they would not be able to kill anything by themselves other than using autoturrets.
One other option would be to give them a second type of turret to drop...
How about taking away EMP from the ghost, but then not just giving it to the raven - instead it drops an Inhibitor Turret which deactivates all shields and energy dependent abilities in the vicinity. If the troops leave the are of effect they become instantly available again though.
That would make the raven superbly useful while at the same time offering a different EMP variant.
Anyone besides me like that idea?
I think it's great  |
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| Von United States. November 08 2012 17:33. Posts 345 | Profile # |
I've always throught the Raven deserved to be more of a core support unit, as equally valuable as the Sci Vessel was in BW.
Instead, it's overpriced, fragile, and the abilities - as a rule - are not balanced to be useful enough.
For some reason Seeker Missles are one of the coolest weapons in the game lol. I can't quite define why it's so awesome to see these go off in a match and get a strike off at the crucial moment, but it is. Love it. And I know I'm not alone.
How hard can it be to tweak the numbers on that ability to make it viable (but not OP) in all three matchups?
It's not.
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| | If its not fun I dont want it. |
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| Tritanis Poland. November 08 2012 17:38. Posts 330 | Profile # |
| I think it would be fun if auto-turrets, just like PDD, were a flying, immobile units. |
| | I live, I serve, I die for the Metal |
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| Breight New Zealand. November 08 2012 17:42. Posts 6 | Profile # |
I think increasing the deployment range of the auto turret would be helpful. In addition, I would like it to be able to be dropped on lowered supply depots, creep tumors and units, just like a forcefield.
This
As many people currently regard getting close enough to deploy a seeker missile a suicide mission for the raven, it's even worse trying to place a turret at three range, then a unit moves into your intended location and the turret can't be placed.....but your raven dies anyway.
If they made turret range six, energy cost 25 and decreased seeker missile cost to 100, I would be very happy with the raven.
Might even be enough to stop me switching to Zerg when hots comes out. |
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| Aetherial Australia. November 08 2012 17:54. Posts 907 | Profile # | |
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| Psychobabas United Kingdom. November 08 2012 18:08. Posts 1962 | Profile Blog # |
Autoturrets should get damage upgrades alongside mech ground.
Replace seeker missile with irradiate. |
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| y0su November 08 2012 18:11. Posts 1769 | Profile # |
I think auto turrent (cast) range and HSM cost are the biggest problems. (As a Fuzer fan, I've seen him simply beat zergs with ravens - and have occasionally had some luck with them as well).
As others have mentioned, it's VERY difficult to successfully place ATs. This is due to both their 2x2 size and limited cast range. At times, I wish they were more like IT's ("units" not "building") however there are definitely situations where they can be useful (blocking ramps - hmmm, gonna try a sentry immortal style ramp block next chance i get - and even serving as buffers in engagements). Again, the problem is being ABLE to place them. With a cast range buff they could be used much easier as your raven's don't need to get into position first. I really like the idea of giving turrets detection too - I know it might seem redundant, but having personally used them to clear creep, it would actually make a difference (and I'm sure it would help with mines too).
HSM... I think the energy cost is an obvious issue (unless something else was buffed). Obviously not everything can be equal, but comparing HSM to storm and fungal is... interesting. I really wouldn't change anything besides the casting cost from 125 to 100. However, it's also important to note that HSM is the only one of the 3 spells that stacks damage so maybe there is a reason for the higher cost (but is also the only spell that can be 100% dodged AFTER it's cast - I do like the mechanic tho and think it should remain). Another angle might be to increase the benefit of the corvid reactor upgrade (+50 instead of 25). This would allow the raven to be more quickly useful but still not allow double HSMs per caster...
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| iKill Denmark. November 08 2012 20:39. Posts 781 | Profile Blog # |
On November 08 2012 17:38 Tritanis wrote:
I think it would be fun if auto-turrets, just like PDD, were a flying, immobile units.
Agreed. Some might argue that this would make it OP vs ground armies with no AA, but then again, by the time you have ravens out shouldn't the other guy have some AA too? |
| | thepuppyassassin: "My god... the deathball's grown wings!" |
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| Decendos Germany. November 08 2012 21:12. Posts 916 | Profile # |
auto-turrets are fine. they are supposed to be used as a harrassment tool not as a deathball tool. terrans need to harrass more often with raven + vikings which is completely riskless because of PDD protecting them if there is only air space underneath them. problem is that most maps dont have that air space so the expensive ravens can be catched by blinkstalker/marines/fungal.
HSM needs to really be changed. instant superhigh splash damage that is ranged and from a flying unit cant be balanced so it is pretty bad right now (low range, slow movement towards opponent). give the raven a "non-instant" over time splash damage (like fungal or storm damage works) like irridate. that way they could make it a spell that hits the opponents unit immediately instead of walking towards it and it could have a higher range so no more suicide ravens. Last edit: 2012-11-08 21:13:38 |
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| link0 United States. November 08 2012 21:15. Posts 1071 | Profile # |
| The raven is a decent support unit already. We don't need more super power spell caster units like the infestor or HT, we need more powerful positional units. Buff the Seige Tank, not the Raven. |
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| Fen1kz Russian Federation. November 08 2012 22:24. Posts 148 | Profile # |
autoturret -> placing anywhere and make benefit from upgrades, even maybe +2/upgrade
also lower upgrades cost for that unit (armor, range etc)
PDD -> make it stop broodlord shots and kill (yea!) interceptors, and also stop widow mine widows (rockets)
now its kind of buggy unit which doesn't stop things it should
seekor -> awful spell, but if not rework it: lower cost to 75, damage 50-75 too, make it ground targetable, increase speed and lower splash radius and increase target raduis to 9
otherwise its just dont needed, instead of your 100-200 raven better build 4-8 mines, they at least will deal damage, not like stupid HSM |
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| AzraelArchontas United States. November 08 2012 22:54. Posts 78 | Profile # |
I have been working on changes for many units and working them into a mod this is what I did to the Raven
Raven
+ Show Spoiler +These are several BIG buffs to raven Build time reduced to 50 Changes to Upgrades+ Show Spoiler +Corvid reactor + Show Spoiler +Gives raven and PDD increased energy regen of .3
Increases attack rate of auto turret by .2
Increases attack range by 2
HSM acceleration increased by .2
HSM ability increased range by 2 Durable Materials + Show Spoiler +Raven health increased by 20
Auto turret and PDD health increased by 50 Auto-Turret + Show Spoiler +Armor increased to 2 from 1 HSM + Show Spoiler +Increased range by 1
Increase splash to 2.5
Increased damage to 125 and 65 in outer .5 of radius This is to make a faster better support unit for terran that can change the strategic landscape, harass or support |
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| Snowbear Korea (South). November 08 2012 22:56. Posts 1705 | Profile Blog # |
On November 08 2012 17:54 Aetherial wrote:
Defensive Matrix!
This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!! |
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| SarcasmMonster November 08 2012 23:06. Posts 2897 | Profile # |
On November 08 2012 22:56 Snowbear wrote:This and irrediate, would make me so happy as terran!!!
Irradiate isn't strong enough in TvP IMO. |
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