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| evanthebouncy! United States. November 09 2012 04:05. Posts 10737 | Profile Blog # |
was messing around today but not too sure still.
The idea of energy boot is great, you get 250 mana bonus (this is useful to boost your total mana pool for combo) and you get 150 mana every 55 seconds.
However I don't like how it is build. It requires an energy booster which costs 1000 gold. With that being said it's a lot harder to farm for it in lane (if you are not solo) and while you are farming it you miss out on a lot of ganking potentials.
Even when you have it it is not incredibly strong in brawling, because it offers no armour nor survibability, and in a team fight often you'll find yourself full of mana but very low on HP (yes you are a ninja but initiating with low hp sucks)
So the question is what are some of the alternative you can explore? I won't deny if you can get a mana boot go for it but I'm purely interested in the alternatives.
So maybe in this topic we just discuss:
Imagine you have 1k extra gold for not purchasing the energy booster. What can you invest this in?
Things to consider:
1) Raw mana pool (in an extended team fight you'd want a big raw mana pool for casting all your spells)
2) Mana regen (this is important for running around outside collecting exp/lvl/gold instead of going back to base to refill
3) Combat power (this is what mana-boot lacks. Imagine a green-boot where it has armour, regen, more movement speed. Imagine a tread with great late-game potentials)
4) Cost (around 1k budget, the price for energy booster)
So far I'm messing around with this as a (core) build. Before dagger
magic-wand (a must have)
bracer (must have)
boot (must have)
Now with an extra 1k gold, what to do? drum of endurance is fairly nice, but I'm thinking of always getting it now for some durability.
I was messing around with urn of shadow but it somehow didn't work out as well.
Soul-ring? SK doesn't really have a lot of health to spare but if we compliment that with some more health could it work?
Also to consider is you now have a choice for an alternative boot, what should the boot be? I'm really like green boot atm.
In any case I'm curious... I've played a lot of sandkings (~150 games) and I'm curious to see what are some of the alternatives to the usual wand/bracer/energyBoot coreLast edit: 2012-11-09 04:07:33 |
| | Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die! |
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| iGrok United States. November 09 2012 04:10. Posts 4244 | Profile Blog # |
| soulring + green boot works ok, lets you be a little more flexible than just blue boot. but blue boot is the way to go. |
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 TheYango United States. November 09 2012 04:14. Posts 15762 | Profile # |
Farming for mana boots shouldn't be a problem. If you don't have a solo lane, you can easily get the gold pulling creeps.
Your ganking ability before levels 5-7 is fairly weak anyway because of how prohibitively short Burrowstrike range is at ranks 1 and 2, so you should be farming during that time anyway. There's very little productive you can accomplish other than that during that time. |
| | Tongfu icon until xiao8's back on a ganker role. |
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| D4V3Z02 Germany. November 09 2012 04:34. Posts 570 | Profile # |
On November 09 2012 04:10 iGrok wrote:
soulring + green boot works ok, lets you be a little more flexible than just blue boot. but blue boot is the way to go.
Arcane boots is just much better because you are a clasher and most of the time you use them your whole team gets mana too.
Just get Arcane Boots and then Dagger asap. I see no reason for bracer since u survive due to you teams disables or your second spell. Magic Wand before dagger is needed if arcane boots are late due to low farm or you are aggressive in the early game. Urn can also be incredibly great if you are aggressive early on.Last edit: 2012-11-09 04:36:51 |
| | Reason your quotes please. |
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| Anazaki Finland. November 09 2012 04:40. Posts 1 | Profile # |
| Bottle also helps with mana regen, and if you have a Bracer you could buy Robe of Magi (small mana pool bonus) and go for Drum. Usually i just stack tier 4 neutral creeps 3-4 times and kill them with epicenter and couple of right clicks. That's about mana boots gold and decent amount of bonus xp. |
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| GG_DotA2 United States. November 09 2012 06:08. Posts 103 | Profile # |
maybe a bottle would help with the mana
but mana boots are very good, get the gold from pulling neutrals or being involved in kills(as sandking, without a doubt you will be involved) |
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| Dead9 United States. November 09 2012 07:45. Posts 2327 | Profile Blog # |
i don't think bracer and wand are necessary
boots + stick + branch + branch + tp leaves a slot for your blink or w.e, so you can get your arcanes 700 gold earlier
bottle is an alternative to arcanes; it doesn't support your team as much but it's much cheaper and it heals hp. soul ring also works but it hurts really bad |
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| findingthelimit Hong Kong. November 09 2012 08:42. Posts 136 | Profile # |
when i play sk i usually go tranquil bottle blink and maybe stick, but never wand. i get bottle first if i get mid (and not level sandstorm, outlane using caustic finale), otherwise both sidelanes are okay, obwards if long lane. i think sand king is a fairly fast farmer, i try to find a window after the laning phase to farm my blink.
i go veil / blade afterwards but that's if i'm teaming with idiots, otherwise i'd stop farming and let the carry take over the lane.  |
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 Kipsate Netherlands. November 09 2012 09:00. Posts 18180 | Profile Blog # |
| The thing is you are not the only player on your team, a good team most of the time has 1 or 2 pair of arcane boots. |
| | Park Ji Yeon/Ye Eun/Kang Min Kyung, T-ara/Wonder Girls/Davichi |
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| Dienosore Brunei Darussalam. November 09 2012 22:24. Posts 546 | Profile Blog # |
Can't give any input on dota seeing as I havn't played since allstars war3 days, but for sandking's HoN clone Magmus, this is my build:
chalice/striders/bracer (if necessary)/hatchet/portal key/vestments (if necessary)
Other than that, its just wards wards wards... maybe spellshards if you need more magic dmg or shrunken head if you need survivability |
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| 5-s United States. November 09 2012 23:12. Posts 880 | Profile # |
| Bracer is not necessary, also don't need to upgrade to wand (stick is fine, although at all but highest levels it doesn't matter). Soul ring's awful, since SK doesn't spam him spells very often. Urn Is a good alternative to bracer sometimes. |
| | I liked Dota before it was Mainstream. |
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| Sefln November 09 2012 23:37. Posts 1 | Profile # |
You have to understand what you're getting out of boots in the long term, not just what an exra 1000 gold will give you. For example: Late game on SK i want Blink + Aghs Scepter + Boots of some kind. Therefore in the beginning of the game i go for Mana Boots as i can disassemble it later to use for Aghs Scepter. This means is get use out of the item throughout the entire game even when mana provided by mana boots is not needed in late game.
If you go Tranquil Boots, it builds to a more force staff oriented build when you disassemble unless you're buying vlads to streamline your teams item builds (in the case of 3+ melee heros who require more expensive items faster).
Power treads is a stable option that provides the attribute of your choosing, some attack speed etc. This is useful if in a unique circumstance you need to tank/provide some non-magic dps in a fight. However I would avoid these. These don't optimally build into late game but give you a means to get to the point in time that you can sell them for boots of travel.
Phase is a tricky, if your team needs more physical damage or the enemy team has really squishy heroes. This is good, other wise I don't prefer it.
TL;DR - Get the boots that streamline your spending, meaning you assess what your team needs late game, and adjust your early game items.
PS: Common sense dictates that you should also consider your laning opponents and their strengths and weaknesses (as well as ur laning partner/s, if you have any). |
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 how2TL November 10 2012 00:29. Posts 1063 | Profile # |
| wand bracers are nowhere near musthaves |
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| Sn0_Man Lesotho. November 10 2012 00:34. Posts 2712 | Profile # |
On November 09 2012 23:37 Sefln wrote:
You have to understand what you're getting out of boots in the long term, not just what an exra 1000 gold will give you. For example: Late game on SK i want Blink + Aghs Scepter + Boots of some kind. Therefore in the beginning of the game i go for Mana Boots as i can disassemble it later to use for Aghs Scepter. This means is get use out of the item throughout the entire game even when mana provided by mana boots is not needed in late game.
If you go Tranquil Boots, it builds to a more force staff oriented build when you disassemble unless you're buying vlads to streamline your teams item builds (in the case of 3+ melee heros who require more expensive items faster).
Power treads is a stable option that provides the attribute of your choosing, some attack speed etc. This is useful if in a unique circumstance you need to tank/provide some non-magic dps in a fight. However I would avoid these. These don't optimally build into late game but give you a means to get to the point in time that you can sell them for boots of travel.
Phase is a tricky, if your team needs more physical damage or the enemy team has really squishy heroes. This is good, other wise I don't prefer it.
TL;DR - Get the boots that streamline your spending, meaning you assess what your team needs late game, and adjust your early game items.
PS: Common sense dictates that you should also consider your laning opponents and their strengths and weaknesses (as well as ur laning partner/s, if you have any).
PS: Energy booster isn't part of aghanims.
Mana boots are kinda not optional on sand king unless a) your team doesn't need them (think OD, CM, etc), and b) you don't need them (think fast Point Booster instead if you were mid and got a fast bottle or some other wierd situation where you have lots of mana).
So basically, while it is conceivable that mana boots might not be required, 95/100 games you are right to just blindly go mana boots and be happy with them. Too bad IceFrog nerfed them  Last edit: 2012-11-10 00:35:24 |
| | "Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad". -Na'Vi.Kuroky |
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| Nevuk United States. November 10 2012 00:35. Posts 4176 | Profile Blog # |
On November 09 2012 23:37 Sefln wrote:
You have to understand what you're getting out of boots in the long term, not just what an exra 1000 gold will give you. For example: Late game on SK i want Blink + Aghs Scepter + Boots of some kind. Therefore in the beginning of the game i go for Mana Boots as i can disassemble it later to use for Aghs Scepter. This means is get use out of the item throughout the entire game even when mana provided by mana boots is not needed in late game.
If you go Tranquil Boots, it builds to a more force staff oriented build when you disassemble unless you're buying vlads to streamline your teams item builds (in the case of 3+ melee heros who require more expensive items faster).
Power treads is a stable option that provides the attribute of your choosing, some attack speed etc. This is useful if in a unique circumstance you need to tank/provide some non-magic dps in a fight. However I would avoid these. These don't optimally build into late game but give you a means to get to the point in time that you can sell them for boots of travel.
Phase is a tricky, if your team needs more physical damage or the enemy team has really squishy heroes. This is good, other wise I don't prefer it.
TL;DR - Get the boots that streamline your spending, meaning you assess what your team needs late game, and adjust your early game items.
PS: Common sense dictates that you should also consider your laning opponents and their strengths and weaknesses (as well as ur laning partner/s, if you have any).
Energy booster isn't part of aghanims.
Phase are my preferred boots of choice on SK if I can farm them fairly quickly or if there are several other mana boots already on the team. |
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| Percutio United States. November 10 2012 03:43. Posts 1366 | Profile Blog # |
My only real alternatives to arcanes are bottle if mid, solo or just able to bottle crow. Sometimes if I do this I might get basilius, but usually not.
I guess tranquils and soul ring might be an option if bottle crowing isn't available and there is a lot of harass, but I've never found a situation where I wouldn't try to bottle crow instead.
If I solo (Not suicide) and have bottle I try to stay brown boots until I want boots of travel. BoT's making you a split push farming machine. It is usually a good choice anyways considering your team gave you solo experience. |
| | What does it matter how I loose it? |
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| evanthebouncy! United States. November 10 2012 05:22. Posts 10737 | Profile Blog # |
On November 09 2012 23:37 Sefln wrote:
You have to understand what you're getting out of boots in the long term, not just what an exra 1000 gold will give you. For example: Late game on SK i want Blink + Aghs Scepter + Boots of some kind. Therefore in the beginning of the game i go for Mana Boots as i can disassemble it later to use for Aghs Scepter. This means is get use out of the item throughout the entire game even when mana provided by mana boots is not needed in late game.
If you go Tranquil Boots, it builds to a more force staff oriented build when you disassemble unless you're buying vlads to streamline your teams item builds (in the case of 3+ melee heros who require more expensive items faster).
Power treads is a stable option that provides the attribute of your choosing, some attack speed etc. This is useful if in a unique circumstance you need to tank/provide some non-magic dps in a fight. However I would avoid these. These don't optimally build into late game but give you a means to get to the point in time that you can sell them for boots of travel.
Phase is a tricky, if your team needs more physical damage or the enemy team has really squishy heroes. This is good, other wise I don't prefer it.
TL;DR - Get the boots that streamline your spending, meaning you assess what your team needs late game, and adjust your early game items.
PS: Common sense dictates that you should also consider your laning opponents and their strengths and weaknesses (as well as ur laning partner/s, if you have any).
Mana boot does not build into Agi when you dis-assemble it.
That's one of my biggest concern. The mana crystal builds NOTHING.
Maybe bloodstone but that's silly |
| | Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die! |
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| synapse China. November 10 2012 07:52. Posts 6915 | Profile Blog # |
I've never found it too difficult to farm the 1k gold for arcanes. Ideally you would get the farm from pulling or soloing in the safe lane (if you're offlaning then farm is just harder to come by in general and not really relevant to this discussion). The extra max mana early on is extremely important for being able to tp and burrowstrike when you need to, and gives you a lot more flexibility with your stun ult combo. You never want to find yourself in a situation where you suddenly don't have enough mana to cast ult/blink/burrow, and without arcanes youre going to have to be very conservative with your mana (which kind of makes blink dagger very shitty).
Also, I disagree with bracer as a must-have. It's perfectly viable to go directly from wand/boots to arcanes, and personally i prefer to go urn over bracer anyway. Soul ring is simply not worth the price since you then need money for some other regen mechanism when you couldve just finished your arcanes (which is more than enough mana) with that gold.
You mentioned that tranquil boots / treads might be better, but honestly urn does tranq boots' job and treads' attack speed is completely wasted on sk. The only boots that might be better would be BoT but that's a very lategame pushing item and you still need the mana regen to be able to use those effectively, meaning you'd have to have built a shivas or some other big int / mana item.
On November 10 2012 00:29 how2TL wrote:
wand bracers are nowhere near musthaves
I do think wand is always a good item choice, but I agree you definitely don't need them. Nothing wrong with arcane rush to enable a lvl 6 stun ult kill easily without having to go back to base to regen mana.
On November 10 2012 05:22 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 23:37 Sefln wrote:
You have to understand what you're getting out of boots in the long term, not just what an exra 1000 gold will give you. For example: Late game on SK i want Blink + Aghs Scepter + Boots of some kind. Therefore in the beginning of the game i go for Mana Boots as i can disassemble it later to use for Aghs Scepter. This means is get use out of the item throughout the entire game even when mana provided by mana boots is not needed in late game.
If you go Tranquil Boots, it builds to a more force staff oriented build when you disassemble unless you're buying vlads to streamline your teams item builds (in the case of 3+ melee heros who require more expensive items faster).
Power treads is a stable option that provides the attribute of your choosing, some attack speed etc. This is useful if in a unique circumstance you need to tank/provide some non-magic dps in a fight. However I would avoid these. These don't optimally build into late game but give you a means to get to the point in time that you can sell them for boots of travel.
Phase is a tricky, if your team needs more physical damage or the enemy team has really squishy heroes. This is good, other wise I don't prefer it.
TL;DR - Get the boots that streamline your spending, meaning you assess what your team needs late game, and adjust your early game items.
PS: Common sense dictates that you should also consider your laning opponents and their strengths and weaknesses (as well as ur laning partner/s, if you have any).
Mana boot does not build into Agi when you dis-assemble it. That's one of my biggest concern. The mana crystal builds NOTHING. Maybe bloodstone but that's silly
I don't see why that's a problem. You get a lot out of arcane boots, it's not like a slot is being wasted.Last edit: 2012-11-10 08:57:19 |
| | Mmmm butterfly... delicious. |
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| Kabras Romania. November 11 2012 00:40. Posts 467 | Profile # |
| bracer is useless, before dagger and arcane boots at least. magic wand stats + charges are more than enough until you get arcane boots. sounds to me like you're feeding a lot in lane, i don't see any other reason to get bracer before your real core. if that's the case, delaying your mana boots by more than half way isn't going to help. soul ring isn't ideal either, but definitely better than bracer. |
| | Anger cannot be dishonest |
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| Testuser November 11 2012 22:45. Posts 2652 | Profile Blog # |
On November 09 2012 23:37 Sefln wrote:
You have to understand what you're getting out of boots in the long term, not just what an exra 1000 gold will give you. For example: Late game on SK i want Blink + Aghs Scepter + Boots of some kind. Therefore in the beginning of the game i go for Mana Boots as i can disassemble it later to use for Aghs Scepter. This means is get use out of the item throughout the entire game even when mana provided by mana boots is not needed in late game.
If you go Tranquil Boots, it builds to a more force staff oriented build when you disassemble unless you're buying vlads to streamline your teams item builds (in the case of 3+ melee heros who require more expensive items faster).
Power treads is a stable option that provides the attribute of your choosing, some attack speed etc. This is useful if in a unique circumstance you need to tank/provide some non-magic dps in a fight. However I would avoid these. These don't optimally build into late game but give you a means to get to the point in time that you can sell them for boots of travel.
Phase is a tricky, if your team needs more physical damage or the enemy team has really squishy heroes. This is good, other wise I don't prefer it.
TL;DR - Get the boots that streamline your spending, meaning you assess what your team needs late game, and adjust your early game items.
PS: Common sense dictates that you should also consider your laning opponents and their strengths and weaknesses (as well as ur laning partner/s, if you have any).
You can't use the energy booster for agh.
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