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| Incomplet United Kingdom. November 10 2012 04:36. Posts 1329 | Profile # |
Burrow vs Cloak
Major Update: Dustin Browders statement as of 11/11/2012.
Good job people!!
+ Show Spoiler +I want to be as clear as I can on our current position of the Infestor in Wings of Liberty.
- We are not going to make any changes before BWC.
- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data.
- We will discuss changes.
- We may try a balance map sometime after BWC.
- We may try some changes in Swarm Beta, using that as a test-bed for stuff we could bring back into Wings of Liberty.
At this time I could see these as possible outcomes:
- We nerf Infested Terrans, Fungal Growth or both.
- We make a change to the Infestor (hit points, movement speed, etc.).
- We do a change to how the unit is designed (add a projectile back to Fungal Growth, increase the visibility of burrowed units while they are moving, etc.).
- We buff some of the potential counters (EMP, Feedback).
- We do a combination of any of the above.
- We see something that makes us decide that doing nothing is the right answer. Obviously if this occurs we would share this data or reasoning.
For those of you who believe that this is too slow a response, I am sorry.
Anyone notice in pro games that many players have become adept at spotting hidden observers, Dts, banshees and other cloaked units, but when it comes to moving burrowed infestors and roaches, they almost never. How often do we see a clutch unit surround on an invisible DT compared to a sick orbital scan catching all the burrowed infestors about to bombard the enemy with eggs? With all the infestor OP talk going on atm, could this be one of the factors why?
Surely 2 years into the game now, we should have seen some players who have a keen eye for spotting burrowed movement, the same way Taeja does with Protoss observers. But we haven't, and I can't help but feel that this is not a player problem, but rather a game problem. Heck even Taeja who is so good at destroying cloaked units can't seem to see burrowed units (refer to Taeja vs Stephano at Dreamhack Ohana)
First let's compare the costs. Please note that I have no issue with stationary burrowed units being virtually invisible, only moving burrowed units.
Zerg
Burrow: 100m, 100g, 100 research time
Allows ALL Zerg ground units to burrow, infestors to move underground + use eggs, banelings to detonate underground.
Tunnelling claws: 150m, 150g, 110 research time
Allows roaches to move underground. Increase HP regeneration underground.
Terran
Banshee Cloak: 200m, 200m, 110 research time.
Only cloak for banshees.
Ghost cloak: 150m, 150g, 120 time
Only cloak for ghost.
Protoss
Observer and DT have an innate permanent cloak.
Mothership cloaks other units.
So as we can see here, something doesn't seem right. Not only is Burrow the cheapest to research, quickest to research but also effects all units as well as huge perks such as burrowed banelings and infestor movement. Terrans have it the worst as their cloaking is the most expensive, and most restrictive to one unit each. Protoss have it ok, as their units are naturally perma cloaked, but always comes at a massive cost to tech paths. IE: going DT will set your very far back if failed. Observers at the cost of not making immortal/colos/warp prism. And by the time Mothership comes out, scans and overseers are in abundance.
The point being is, if burrow is going to be the cheapest, make it more visible to the eye compared to the high costs and exclusiveness of Terran cloak and tech gimping for Protoss. You're meant to get what you pay for right? Alternately, if burrow should stay the best in terms of visibility and extra perks, make it more expensive and/or longer to research. So let's end this with a poll...
Poll: What do Blizz need to do?Make movement when burrowed more visible (482) 50% It's fine the way it is (445) 46% Make cloak less visible (13) 1% Make burrow more expensive and/or longer to research (11) 1% Other. Please specify below. (7) 1% Make cloak cheaper for T and less tech gimpy for P (6) 1% 964 total votes Your vote: What do Blizz need to do? (Vote): Make movement when burrowed more visible
(Vote): Make cloak less visible
(Vote): Make burrow more expensive and/or longer to research
(Vote): Make cloak cheaper for T and less tech gimpy for P
(Vote): It's fine the way it is
(Vote): Other. Please specify below.
Please excuse any typos, wrote all this on phone.Last edit: 2012-11-12 03:36:57 |
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| S_SienZ November 10 2012 04:38. Posts 1833 | Profile # |
Can someone please confirm the visibility of burrow and how it compares to cloaked units?
It just seems odd that Terrans like Taeja who insta-scan whenever an observer is in sight don't scan when infestors are close, and en masse as well. |
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| habeck November 10 2012 04:39. Posts 795 | Profile # |
| different race, different things. |
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| sickoota Canada. November 10 2012 04:39. Posts 708 | Profile Blog # |
| I've been having this thought a lot lately myself. Burrowed stuff is WAY harder to see than cloak stuff while at the same time spamming ITs while burrowed is more useful/destructive than anything a cloaked unit can do. Even pros can almost never see the tiny black lines that mean burrowed movement, while they catch stuff like observers every time. Should be much more visible imo. |
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| Nimelrian Germany. November 10 2012 04:40. Posts 118 | Profile # |
It is just as visible as cloaked units.
Burrowed Units moving around can be seen by a dark shade moving over the map, very easy to spot. |
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| Hryul Germany. November 10 2012 04:41. Posts 989 | Profile Blog # |
On November 10 2012 04:38 S_SienZ wrote:
Can someone please confirm the visibility of burrow and how it compares to cloaked units?
It just seems odd that Terrans like Taeja who insta-scan whenever an observer is in sight don't scan when infestors are close, and en masse as well.
It might just be that he is more used to it. I can't see burrow movement on creep (ultra graphics) and have a really hard time to spot it off creep.
For me cloaked units are much easier to spot. |
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| Assirra Belgium. November 10 2012 04:41. Posts 3450 | Profile # |
So first the infestor, now burrow.
What is next? a thread about zerglings?Last edit: 2012-11-10 04:42:22 |
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| WaesumNinja November 10 2012 04:42. Posts 70 | Profile # |
| What's up with this recent crusade against infestors? I keep seeing threads like these popping up everywhere, filled with biased people. Last edit: 2012-11-10 04:43:02 |
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| capu Finland. November 10 2012 04:43. Posts 134 | Profile Blog # |
| yeah burrowed movement is harder to notice just compare bunch of infestors moving vs ´bunch of cloaked banshees. Although the thing with e.g protoss is you kind of know the timing when to look for obs in your base. You just know it's there so you pay more attention. |
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| Blezza United Kingdom. November 10 2012 04:43. Posts 183 | Profile # |
| Burrow is just a completely different thing, all zerg ground units but two cant move while burrowed and bear in mind that any burrowed unit is a sitting duck atleast DT's or banshees can run away. Burrow is completely different from other races cloacking, thats why its like that |
| | Winners race > Other race I don't play > My race. How Twitch chat work in tournaments... |
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| Lumi United States. November 10 2012 04:44. Posts 1034 | Profile # |
| cool post, nice to see some infestor positive discussion.. since I'm not very on board with the infestor negataive :D |
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| Koshi Belgium. November 10 2012 04:45. Posts 7125 | Profile Blog # |
| If there is a problem, burrow visibility is not it. |
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| RiSkysc2 November 10 2012 04:45. Posts 555 | Profile # |
| A very very good point, IMO cloaked units are TOO easy to spot, and burrowed units are too difficult to spot... So both should be slightly altered. |
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| S_SienZ November 10 2012 04:45. Posts 1833 | Profile # |
On November 10 2012 04:43 Blezza wrote:
Burrow is just a completely different thing, all zerg ground units but two cant move while burrowed and bear in mind that any burrowed unit is a sitting duck atleast DT's or banshees can run away. Burrow is completely different from other races cloacking, thats why its like that
Note that no one has a problem with burrowed banes or zerglings being virtually invisible, it's precisely Infestors that are mostly the problem here. Unloading a ton of ITs does much more damage than a small group of banshees or DTs, and doesn't even cost gas. |
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| QQKachoo United States. November 10 2012 04:46. Posts 102 | Profile Blog # |
On November 10 2012 04:42 WaesumNinja wrote:
What's up with this recent crusade against infestors? I keep seeing threads like these popping up everywhere, filled with biased people.
I kind of hope that all of these threads and suggested changes are coming up because people want to change the current meta with zerg since infestor is used in every matchup. But in reality it is probably because they want their matchup to be easier and have to put in less effort when playing against zerg. |
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| Blezza United Kingdom. November 10 2012 04:48. Posts 183 | Profile # |
On November 10 2012 04:45 RiSkyToss wrote:
A very very good point, IMO cloaked units are TOO easy to spot, and burrowed units are too difficult to spot... So both should be slightly altered.
Burrow cant be compared to cloak in a any way, only the roach and inf can move while burrowed and when any unit is burrowed it is a sitting duck and cant attack, unlike cloaked units
They are completely different things it like comparing an apple with a cow. |
| | Winners race > Other race I don't play > My race. How Twitch chat work in tournaments... |
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| Chewbacca. United States. November 10 2012 04:48. Posts 1480 | Profile # |
On November 10 2012 04:45 Koshi wrote:
If there is a problem, burrow visibility is not it.
Pretty much this. I see a ton of people complaining about infestors but it is always about IT eggs soaking up too much damage in a fight or the fact that landing one fungal can lock down an army forever. I have never really seen anyone complaining about how infestors are so overpowered because they can sneak into a base and throw down a few eggs and killing a few scvs/addons. |
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| Brutaxilos United States. November 10 2012 04:48. Posts 887 | Profile Blog # |
I definitely agree with the OP. Burrowed units are much more difficult to spot than cloaked units. I think, because this is SC and not WC3, that cloaking should be more of a user interface (unattack-able) thing than a visual thing (something like a changeling). DTs and ghosts shouldn't be dangerous because you can't see them, they should be dangerous because you aren't prepared (the same way with not preparing anti-air against spire or something). That said, burrow should be as visual as cloak. Hidden strategies based on visual unawareness could be saved for things like nydus (could help make them more viable).
One more thing, can burrowed units even be spotted if thu aren't moving or can't move? Can someone confirm this?
Edit: Also, I want to add that I understand that this does change the game for some strategies so I would hope that if Blizzard does make a change, they took that into consideration.Last edit: 2012-11-10 04:55:33 |
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| NoobSkills United States. November 10 2012 04:48. Posts 1291 | Profile # |
| You cannot attack while burrowed, you can attack while cloaked. Zerg units burrow, but don't attack while burrowed. Terran has expensive upgrade, but cheap units that use cloak for a short time. Protoss has expensive units (gas) and expensive tech to get to those units, so the cloak is permanent. It makes sens amirite? Also, I don't know if you don't get this, but the races aren't supposed to be equal. You use the advantages of whatever unit you're making, rather than making everything equal. If everything was equal there wouldn't be a need for 3 races. I'm glad everyone seems to be fixing the game for Blizzard, a game developing company, that is clueless I agree, but that everyone seems to know more than them o_O |
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| KoKoRo United States. November 10 2012 04:51. Posts 181 | Profile # |
| I don't have a problem seeing burrowed... That said a lot of people don't play on low enough settings to where the only thing moving you'd be able to see is the burrow animation. |
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