Tournament Map Pools

I'm a scrub but I enjoy watching and playing Starcraft 2, but something bothers me about the maps being played in tournaments. Please, hear me out.

There are a handful of maps that are widely regarded as tournament material. They are carefully analyzed and played often to ensure balance. I totally understand that, but what I would like to see is maps being used that pro players have never seen before. Here's how it may work:

Before a tournament, new maps would be made. Care would be given to make sure the maps are as unique as possible as well as fair as possible, given a short amount of time to make them. (The idea isn't to make them perfect, more on that later.) Upon tournament day the maps are revealed to the players. Perhaps they aren't shown until the loading screen.

The point of this exercise is to test the adaptability of the players. It's one thing to memorize engagements and be skilled at a certain map. It's an entire different thing to quickly assess a new battlefield you have never seen before and make decisions quickly about your strategy and such. To me, someone who can think on the fly successfully like this is typically a better player than someone who is mechanically adept because he's played the same map 1,000 times. At the end of the tournament the maps are discarded and not used again.

Now, you may be thinking to yourself that it wouldn't be fair or the map may be unbalanced in some way. The point of not revealing the map until play time is that there is no time to abuse any tactics that may be present. Furthermore, the maps are generally discarded so the next time one of these tournaments happens all the maps may be fresh again. This could be a lot of fun for the audience as well as the map reveal would be surprising to them as well.

These kinds of rounds could be bonus rounds or specially made events for these special tournaments. Just for fun or whatever, until the bugs get worked out. Anyway, I think the point is clear. I really think this would be fun to watch. What does the community think?

S_SienZ November 10 2012 05:33. Posts 1795

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It's called Red Bull Battlegrounds

You might have to tie Day9 up or lock up the mega infestor button though.

Yoshi Kirishima United States. November 10 2012 05:34. Posts 9002

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I think one of the main problems with this is that you would have to make a lot of maps for this, unless you want it to just be used occasionally... but how that would work would seem to require a bit of planning.

@above

ah didn't know they did that there

Last edit: 2012-11-10 05:34:25

Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."

Teoita Italy. November 10 2012 05:37. Posts 4232

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Adding to what Yoshi said, it would also lower the overall quality of play. Builds are optimized also based on which map they are played on, and even spawning positions on a particular map sometimes, and this would not be possible if a map wasn't studied beforehand. Also, by not testing maps you make it a lot more likely to introduce an imbalanced map pool; traits that contribute majorly to map imbalance such as cliffs, third base layouts, siege positions and forcefield locations are immediately recognizable.

I agree that the map pool does feel a bit stale, but currently it's hard to design new maps, especially with how limited Protoss is. For example, Abyssal City and Bel'Shir Vestige may be fancy new and exciting or whatever, but they are in fact fucking terrible as every PvZ on there will be a 2base all-in, which will show heavily in this season as well as the next one.

Last edit: 2012-11-10 05:39:18

Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.

Flopjack United States. November 10 2012 05:46. Posts 44

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Teoita, I think you may have misunderstood. The maps would definitely be tested, but not by the players.

Teoita Italy. November 10 2012 05:46. Posts 4232

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Who would test maps if not top progamers? One of the points of giving out a list of maps before a tournament is so pros can practice on them, and so indirectly test them. No pro is going to practice on a map that may or may not be used, but he's damn sure going to figure out that new esv map that will be at the next mlg or whatever.

Last edit: 2012-11-10 05:47:57

Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.

Flopjack United States. November 10 2012 05:59. Posts 44

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Whoever is NOT going to the tournament could test it and provide feedback, provided they keep their mouth shut. (Which would be a whole new issue entirely too, people spilling the beans about the maps. This is why it would probably be best kept as a funzies thing.) Again, the point here isn't to make a perfectly balanced map. Pros will only have a few hours on the maps before the tournament is over. The point is to test their ability to adapt versus memorize. How well can they think on the fly with their race?

Last edit: 2012-11-10 06:01:13

Sajaki Canada. November 10 2012 06:05. Posts 702

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Overall it seems too complicated and a waste of resources to be honest. Like others' said, a large part of the strategic element in starcraft IS based around specific builds per map. The quality of games would go down, as unique reflexive build orders would be unrefined. Not to mention there would be a large cost associated with making and testing each map (thoroughly enough to ensure balance, if blizzard tells us anything its that we cannot trust them in this regard, for the most part) prior to the tournament. Would it be cool? Maybe. Practical? Probably not.

Last edit: 2012-11-10 06:06:46

Gnusnu United States. November 10 2012 06:06. Posts 51

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I don't see the best possible games happening under these conditions which is what I personally value. If there's even one map flaw overlooked and someone spots it during a tournament things could get stupid. It takes months to figure out map flaws sometimes and they also take a while to make properly. Then there's the aforementioned build orders that would change a bit depending on how you need to build your wall or base distances or whatever. It's a lot to get done in such a little amount of time for too great of a risk.

It's a good thought but let's stick with what we know concerning map pools.

Last edit: 2012-11-10 06:07:16

Flopjack United States. November 10 2012 06:25. Posts 44

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The best possible games? There would be a higher chance that deviations would occur, hence something interesting. And, if map flaws take months to discover, why is that an issue? Remember, they are only playing on the maps for a day or two, tops.

OK, hold up. I think you guys are missing the point here. If someone organized a single event like this it would:

-Be exciting for the audience.
-Be something fresh for the players, if they chose to participate. (Did you see what Penny Arcade did at their event? Much more extreme than this and very fun.)
-Be something fun for those who make the maps. (This isn't a weekly thing, just occasionally.)
-Have very little or nothing on the line so it would be more relaxed. You know, fun? (This wouldn't be a $10,000 tournament or whatever.)

Agreed on those points?

Last edit: 2012-11-10 06:28:14

Gnusnu United States. November 10 2012 06:31. Posts 51

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On November 10 2012 06:25 Flopjack wrote:
The best possible games? There would be a higher chance that deviations would occur, hence something interesting. And, if map flaws take months to discover, why is that an issue? Remember, they are only playing on the maps for a day or two, tops.

OK, hold up. I think you guys are missing the point here. If someone organized a single event like this it would:

-Be exciting for the audience.
-Something fresh for the players, if they chose to participate (Did you see what Penny Arcade did at their event? Much more extreme than this and very fun.)
-Something fun for those who make the maps. (This isn't a weekly thing, just occasionally.)
-Very little or nothing on the line. (This wouldn't be a $10,000 tournament or whatever.)

Agreed on those points?

You're missing the point of what I was saying.

1. No, best possible doesn't mean standard predictable play. I mean someone doesn't put a tank on a cliff overlooking your natural when I say that. That's not interesting that's just lame. You can say "well we just won't put that in our map". Easier said than done.

2. What a dozen people don't spot one person may spot. There's a very high chance of this happening. It happens all of the time every day not just with starcraft maps.

Yeah it's fresh and you may see some different ways to abuse a map but it is also very likely to get out of control. It won't really change the meta or unit compositions or whatever so there's very little point in even trying if you want to see deviation. There's better ways to encourage that, at least.

Last edit: 2012-11-10 06:32:41

Flopjack United States. November 10 2012 06:39. Posts 44

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I can see your concern. And there may be loop holes or cheese. I would expect the map makers to not make a tank placement issue. But your point is, there could be an abuse that is found. To counter that, I would say multiple maps would be available. If a game is ended through this kind of cheese, then that's that. You move on and people know not to pick that map in that circumstance again.

So in short, it may happen and ruin a match or two, but it's something you just say "Oh well" to and move on. It certainly wouldn't happen every match.

I'd also like to stress the range of maps you could find. Players may find themselves in a very odd shaped map, or a patterned map, or an island map. Or odd minerals placement, like having 4 yellow crystals (with gas) at your start and your expansion having mixed crystals with only 1 gas, then another base with just 3 gas, then yet another base that you have to proxy mine to; just really shuffling the cards. All of this would be hidden information thus finding abusable tactics like your tank scenario would be minimized.

We all like seeing our pros in unusual situations and see how they respond or who thinks quicker and more creative. This is just a fun effort to push them into those situations. I mean, 99.99% of all Starcraft games aren't effecting the meta, they are for fun. I'm not saying this should replace the traditional tournament scene.

Last edit: 2012-11-10 06:41:47

Gnusnu United States. November 10 2012 06:45. Posts 51

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Fair enough. I do see the appeal in wildly different maps with different resource patches or various other things. The problem is this would be absurdly difficult to implement without heavily favoring one race or another. I hope something like that is possible but balance is pretty delicate as is. I would definitely like to see how this would go but also wouldn't want to waste a professional's time if there's a significant chance of a game being ruined. That's all I'm concerned with really.

Flopjack United States. November 10 2012 07:16. Posts 44

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You could throw a few test runs with semi(?) pros or propose to see if the pros are willing to donate some testing time to see if there are any major flaws. It would just take a few hours. They don't need to fly somewhere to test to see if there is a critical flaw in this. This seems like something Day 9 might do, and if there are a few people like him over seeing the process, you could minimize damage fairly well before using a pro's time for the first test run. Furthermore, with his influence and quirky disposition, a few pros may be interested in participating for fun, after said checks are made.

Also, on your balance comment. You mention balance is delicate, but that's only with current play styles on current maps. In this situation, anything is possible. I'm not saying balance would not be delicate for sure, I'm saying we wouldn't know.

I would love to see their face when the mini-map pops up, or see weird resource placement or when they realize they start on an island. It could be gold.

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