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| rQdjay United States. November 21 2012 10:18. Posts 22 | Profile # |
Hello TL, I am rQdjay, a Masters player on NA. I am making this guide simply because I am astounded by the brilliance behind the legend that is Rain. Hopefully, this will shed some light that PvZ is not a hopeless matchup, and can be favored toward the Protoss depending on the timings that are hit. I believe Rain is in the process of figuring out these timings and even showing us that infestor broodlord can seem like a weak composition that can easily be abused.
Goals:
+ Show Spoiler +
Continually attack in order to slow the Zerg down in order to force a low infestor count to the point where he cannot drone his 4th while getting early broodlords and get to the turtle stage. In order to prevent the Zerg from getting to this turtle stage you have to continually attack, especially hitting the prehive timing, while establishing a 3rd/4th and eventually 5th for yourself so you have the economy to switch to high templar carrier. Having map control allows you to get up your army of death that Zerg is unable to kill. This version of map control is not about walking your grandmother out to the middle of map and back safely, but is instead the freedom to tech. There are two huge timings to kill the zerg. ONE: a huge immortal stalker push onto the Zerg's 4th in order to hit a prehive timing and TWO: delaying with warp prisms in order to get out a mega death ball and rolling over the infestor corruptor broodlord army of the Zerg.
The Attacks:
+ Show Spoiler +1. Zealot Stalker Push: + Show Spoiler +
The point of the zealot stalker push is to slow the Zerg's droning and larva usage to open up a window where the zealot stalker push can do damage because of a lack of roaches. The priority is to snipe the queen at the 3rd, however this is the best case scenario. Sniping the queen means you are taking away 5 larva and 150 minerals from the Zerg, slowing him down considerably at this stage of the game. If the queen cannot be sniped (decision has to be made instantly) go for drones. Three drones have, and should, be killed by the zealot and stalker. Simply target them down as the queen throws tissue paper at the zealot and stalker. It is worth it to lose the zealot for 3+ drones and worth it to lose both the zealot and the stalker for 4-5+ depending on how much mining time was delayed. These units are not vital after the attack, but should be used afterward in order to clear path for the warp prism so it is not scouted.
2. 3 Sentry Zealot Warp Prism Attack: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +The goal of this attack is to FORCE UNITS FORCE UNITS FORCE UNITS TO DELAY TECH! Three sentries should be loaded up from the natural into the warp prism and then go to the 3rd.Before the warp prism arrives to the 3rd 4 zealots should be warped in to lead for the prism. These zealots allow for an instant warp in once the warp prism is in place at the 3rd as well as preventing queens from attacking the warp prism once it is powered. Juggling Sentries in and out of the warp prism is very strong against small number of roaches. Have the warp prism set up at 3rd if the queen is dead. Only zealots should be made in this attack as your gas is going towards upgrades and immortals. Best case scenario is to obviously kill the 3rd. However, you are in an amazing position if you are able to force a large amount of roaches from the Zerg as this means he will not have any tech. The timing that this hits is exactly when Zerg begins to get their +1/+1 as well as lair already started. If the zerg has roaches prepared, the damage is already done as he that means his upgrades are too delayed for your next push and it is impossible to get a healthy infestor count for the rest of the game. This attack is a double edged sword for the Zerg, he must react and either way you are continuing to get your 3rd and tech and no matter what he is vulnurable to your next attack. Note: During this attack you will stockpile on gas! Do not fret! As you are establishing your 3rd, since you will be down on minerals because of probe and immortal production, all of your gas will be spent on sentries (6-8). Then the stalker production will commence. 3. 3-4 Immortal Stalker Pre-Hive Death Push: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +The Zerg's 4th dies. The game is now over. However, because Zerg is... well Zerg, your push may be barely held off. If their 4th lives substantial damage will be done to his army, all his infestor energy will be used, and a turtle brood transition is the only possible way to play after this. This push has the potential to outright kill Zergs on maps like Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak because your units are too spread out to be chain fungaled and the only response to this push is a healthy broodlord count, and no more than 4 will be out because of the two previous attacks. Getting broodlords would be death of the Zerg, which means the only response is going to be fungal. Zerglings are nullified because of your +1 armor and blink, and 3-4 +2/3 immortals will shred any roach count. During this attack it is vital to spread your units and blink small amounts of stalkers onto the infestors in order to snipe them and destroy his infestor count for the rest of the game. Additional stalkers should be warped in, especially after the infestor energy is used, to further push your victory and possibly snipe the 3rd and any morphing broodlords. This is best case scenario, as killing the 4th or all the infestors would already be the end of the game. 4. Getting to the late game: + Show Spoiler +
If by chance you meet Nestea on ladder, the Zerg may still be alive. Do not be fooled, this is only an illusion,as this is just Nestea shifting the universe in order to make it seem like he is still in the game. The key to this stage is to rip the Zerg apart. WARP PRISMS WARP PRISMS WARP PRISMS WARP PRISMS and zealots. There should be a minimum of 2 active warp prisms on the map, and on a map like Daybreak 3 warpprisms are extremely beneficial. Warp prism speed should be researched as 3rd is nearing saturation/taking 4th. You cannot afford dark templar during this time, so just try to tear the zerg's defense apart. Even though he may have spines at his base zealots can easily wear this down. The whole point is to delay so you can establish your 5th base and build up towards your death army. On a map like Ohana, huge zealot warp ins will force the Zerg to pull back a significant chunk of his army, which can open up a window to snipe the Zerg's 5th and possibly even his 4th. During this time high templar should be built for feedback and storm, mothership should be building up energy, 3-3-3 should be near completion, and air attack upgrades can begin. The key is to never engage the Zerg army until you have an unkillable army.
5. The Final Army: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +High Templar for storms and feedback are the absolute key to this stage, whether or not carriers are out or not. Pure infestor broodlord can be destroyed by feedbacking the infestors and using storms to zone the broodlords and infestors to get the necessary engage. During the super late game stage use the storms to chunk away at the corruptors and allow your carriers and couple of voidrays to rape face. Warp prisms can destroy Zerg's tech and economy at this point as dark templar are feasible.
The Build:
+ Show Spoiler +
17 nexus
Forge
Pylon
Gate
Cannon
Double gas @ half Gateway completion
Cyber @ Gateway completion
Zealot (Use this zealot in order to clear watchtower to wittle down the zergling count and clear a path for the stalker)
Note: By this point all crono should have been continually used on probes.
Stalker Cronoboosted (Pressure with Zealot Stalker and continue sentry production out of gateway)
Robo
Robo Build Priority: Warp Prism, Observer, Immortal, Immortal, Immortal, from this point continue immortal or warp prism production
2 gas
3 gates
Note: 2 sentries made out of gateway and 3rd warped in at natural
3 Sentry Zealot Warp Prism Push (Push should be leaving base 7:50-8:10 depending on crono use)
Add 3rd and 2-3 gates (3 if necessary to wall 3rd)
Get up sentry count (4-5)
Twilight -> Blink/+2
3-4 Immortal Stalker Pre-Hive Death Push
Establish 4th and continue tech as needed
Additional Notes:
+ Show Spoiler +
2 Observers are vital for scouting the exact hive timing of the Zerg as well as when the Zerg decides to take his 5th. Having constant vision of the army allows you to do large warp ins of zealots in order to take the main army of the zerg out of position and snipe his 4th/5th or catch broodlords/infestors out of position. While harassing with zealots you must build up your high templar count while building up energy on your mothership. Having a low stalker count is necessary in the super late game as any stalker count you have should end up being sacrificed in order to do some sort of economic or army damage to free up supply while teching towards carriers. Cannons at your 5th on a map like daybreak are vital to avoid taking damage from the zerg clearing up supply. In the super lategame you should also be double upgrading air armor and weapons, while already having shields maxed out. Your high templar and mothership timing while harassing with zealots makes it impossible for the Zerg to attack with infestor broodlord without risking the game.
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +Rain vs Idra Daybreak: + Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/277200In this game Rain only pushes with 2 sentries because his timing was slightly off. You are able to warp in the 3rd sentry at home but it would have delayed his push, and as he killed Idra's 3rd, Rain obviously made the correct decision. This is the best case scenario for this push. After this point Rain stuck to his plan and hit the pre-hive timing to get Idra's 4th and saw that he could push the advantage and end the game. Rain vs Sen Ohana + Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/277207Rain opened with a stargate in this game, however I am attaching this game because of his excellent use of warp prisms, spreading out the Zerg, and attacking at multiple fronts to wear him down. Rain's choice to go for colossus in his games is very specific to what the Zerg is doing and I may end up making a guide on Rain's stargate play as well as the games to go for colossus because of the extremely precise things he has to see in order to do so. Rain vs Killer Daybreak: + Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/277169During this game Rain scouted Killer in order to tell that he should go for colossus and killed multiple of Killer's bases. From this point he could easily bring it to super late game where Rain has the advantage. This replay is a must see for people who believe that infestor broodlord is impossible to deal with. The fact is that at super late game nothing of Zerg can kill a well microed toss deathball, with the correct unit composition. Rain rolls over Killer in the final battle while losing only a couple of units. Note: These replays are all from BWC 2012 as I was unable to find any other replays from Rain. If anyone finds additional replays I would be happy to update the guide and make adjustments as necessary. Last edit: 2012-11-24 09:52:01 |
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| PsychiC.SC2 United States. November 21 2012 10:40. Posts 1 | Profile # |
I was able to catch Rain do this in the BWC and was amazed as well. With multiple focused attacks at precise timings he was able to control the pace of the game and roll over IdrA.
Thanks for writing out this guide. The amount of detail you go into this build is impressive and I truly appreciate the effort you put into this. Tried it out a few times, had a little trouble executing the warp prism sentry-zealot part of the attack but I'm sure that comes with practice.
I'd advise trying this build out vs AI a couple times to see if you can get the timings right (at least what I did), definitely helped me out before using it on ladder.
I hope people start realizing that infestor BL is possible to engage as Protoss - especially if you wear the zerg down all game. |
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| SkaPunk United States. November 21 2012 11:01. Posts 424 | Profile # |
| Ive done a similar style for a few months now and this build seems very... rigid. It doesnt seem to take into account what teh zerg does. What if he spines up heavy and goes lings inf? What if he goes pure roach and is super aggro? Ling/bling? Do you always hit at the same time? If so, what time? Mutas? What do? When to hit? Is it a 2.5 base timing, into 3base into 4base? |
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| QzYSc2 Netherlands. November 21 2012 11:20. Posts 78 | Profile # |
| thanks for the replays, where did you get them? |
| | high masters protoss EU || www.twitch.tv/QzYsc2 |
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| rQdjay United States. November 21 2012 11:23. Posts 22 | Profile # |
On November 21 2012 11:01 SkaPunk wrote:
Ive done a similar style for a few months now and this build seems very... rigid. It doesnt seem to take into account what teh zerg does. What if he spines up heavy and goes lings inf? What if he goes pure roach and is super aggro? Ling/bling? Do you always hit at the same time? If so, what time? Mutas? What do? When to hit? Is it a 2.5 base timing, into 3base into 4base?
This style is everything but rigid. Rain uses a probe scout to check if the Zerg has taken/canceled his 3rd (usually finishes by 6 mins if doing 3 base no gas style) and uses a follow up scout with the zealot and stalker to see how the Zerg is droning, check his unit count if there are large amounts of lings/roaches on the map etc. If by the sentry push the Zerg has already set up static defenses, then you have already hindered his economy and have the opportunity to attack somewhere else. As for roach agression, you are establishing your 3rd off of 6 gates and already have 3-4 immortals with 2 observers on the map with a healthy sentry count for forcefields, with a cannon at the 3rd also, I don't see how a Zerg can break a toss who is playing correctly with that sort of 3 base roach push. He also uses his warp prism and 2 obs in order to scout to see if the Zerg is going ling infestor, and this is when he will get colosus and usually hit the timing before corruptors enter the field, and usually can still fight to lower infestor count or kill the 4th (this can be seen on BWC game vs Killer on Entombed). As for muta, you get an immediate twilight council as you establish your 3rd and already have 1/1 with your sentries already produced, so you can switch into pure stalker production with a good 3rd timing to afford some ht if needed. As for ling bling, with 8 sentries on the field, unless the Toss is moving out when he isn't supposed to, I don't see how that can realistically do damage, imo that style was debuted by Symbol and then toss figured out that archons are blink stalkers are pretty good vs banelings. |
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| rQdjay United States. November 21 2012 11:26. Posts 22 | Profile # | |
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| snively United States. November 21 2012 11:38. Posts 1083 | Profile Blog # |
in the "the build" section, youre talking about the zealot and you say "widdle"
i think its supposed to be "whittle"
im not sure
but anyway, awesome guide. thank you so much for writing this out. |
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| QzYSc2 Netherlands. November 21 2012 11:56. Posts 78 | Profile # | |
| | high masters protoss EU || www.twitch.tv/QzYsc2 |
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| phodacbiet United States. November 21 2012 12:38. Posts 935 | Profile # |
| I think this is Creator's build. Most of Rain's build are ripped off of creator btw. |
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| DJHelium Sweden. November 21 2012 12:55. Posts 3091 | Profile # |
I don't get why all guides use spoilers like this. If I'm here, I probably want to read the guide. Very annoying to click spoiler tons of times for each guide.
Also, "Sniping the queen means 5 less larva + 150 less minerals which means a total of 8 less drones". I don't get your reasoning here, 8 drones is 8 larva and 400 minerals. Sniping the queen would be 3-5 drones, depending on limiting resource. |
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| illuminated Canada. November 21 2012 13:34. Posts 3 | Profile # |
On November 21 2012 12:55 DJHelium wrote:
I don't get why all guides use spoilers like this. If I'm here, I probably want to read the guide. Very annoying to click spoiler tons of times for each guide.
Also, "Sniping the queen means 5 less larva + 150 less minerals which means a total of 8 less drones". I don't get your reasoning here, 8 drones is 8 larva and 400 minerals. Sniping the queen would be 3-5 drones, depending on limiting resource.
5 larva + 150 (3 drones worth of minerals) = 8 less drones? |
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| Rickyvalle21 United States. November 21 2012 14:36. Posts 92 | Profile # |
| Creatorprime by far has the best 3 base timing attacks vs zerg but Rain variation are very strong also. |
| | people say practice is perfect but if nothing is perfect whats the point in practicing? |
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| Pachacutec Peru. November 21 2012 15:17. Posts 43 | Profile # |
If by chance you meet Nestea on ladder, the Zerg may still be alive. Do not be fooled, this is only an illusion,as this is just Nestea shifting the universe in order to make it seem like he is still in the game.
HAHAHAHAHA, i just died with that line, lmao, nice guide thou, will try to apply it to my pvz. i think its a relly nice variation to the herp derp immortal sentrie all in |
| | you look better in the shadows |
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| SCAReaSoN United States. November 24 2012 09:15. Posts 7 | Profile # |
i cant get mediafire to work could you upload the reps to drop.sc?
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| rQdjay United States. November 24 2012 09:53. Posts 22 | Profile # |
On November 24 2012 09:15 SCAReaSoN wrote:
i cant get mediafire to work could you upload the reps to drop.sc?
Done. Also can be found on battlenet |
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| Defenestrator November 24 2012 11:03. Posts 248 | Profile # |
Thanks for doing this =) Rain does some things in his play that I feel are pretty unique, and I think more tosses can include parts of his style into their play.
Also one thing I notice that he does is that to buy time for his ultimate army, he will not just do warp prism harass with zealots, but also uses recall for hitsquads (see Rain vs Killer, he uses voids), as well as sending out JUST his stalker army to try to harass/kill off a base and then blink away. This requires solid map awareness to not get chain-fungaled, but at this point in the game I think he considers stalkers not that important and it helps him out a lot. He basically abuses the immobility of the Z army to its fullest. |
| | Ultras and banelings go together like peas and carrots |
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| SCAReaSoN United States. November 24 2012 11:36. Posts 7 | Profile # | |
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| showBanquo Sweden. November 25 2012 21:02. Posts 118 | Profile # |
Sounds like a nice build, but since I am not a that-high-level player would you (or someone else  ) please tell me when
to get +1 and also when going for the late-game when to add templar archives and when stargate?
thanks in advance |
| | Naniwa - king of the north |
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| Davron Tajikistan. November 26 2012 19:40. Posts 70 | Profile # |
On November 25 2012 21:02 showBanquo wrote:Sounds like a nice build, but since I am not a that-high-level player would you (or someone else ) please tell me when to get +1 and also when going for the late-game when to add templar archives and when stargate? thanks in advance
Here's the same build with some more timings from the replay. Remember though that all of these timings are reactionary and specific to his game against Idra.
*All Chrono on Probes
17 Nexus
17 Forge
17 Pylon
18 Gate
18 Cannon
19 Gas x2
23 Cyber
26 Zealot (Clear Towers)
Stalker Cronoboosted
+1 Attack
38 Robo
Sentry
6:20 Zealot/Stalker Push at 3rd
Kill Queen or 5 Drones
Warp Prism>Obs>Immortal x3
6:30 2x Gas
7:00 Gateway x3
Warp Sentry
7:50 - 8:10 - 3 Sentry Zealot Warp Prism Push
Load Units into Warp Prism
Warp in 4 Zealots before WP arrives
TAKE DOWN THIRD
3 Gates
Get up sentry count (4-5)
Twilight -> Blink/+2
11:30 Nexus
12:00-13:00 - 3-4 Immortal Stalker Pre-Hive Death Push
Establish 4th and continue tech as needed
Harass with WP's everywhere |
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| KingAlphard Italy. November 27 2012 00:37. Posts 86 | Profile # |
I don't understand... if you push without colossi at 12-13 min he will have infestors and how do you deal with them? Wouldn't a 2 min later push with 2-3 colossi be better? He shouldn't have broodlords before 16-17 min anyway.
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| | Mid/low masters protoss EU/NA |
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