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Fungals, FF, Storms, and Smart-casting

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 All
  Falling   Canada. November 21 2012 11:16. Posts 6380Profile Blog # 
Hello! I've decided to venture out from quiet blog land with this latest thread and see how it goes.

Background:
It seems that while I've been slowly putting together these videos over the last week or so, several threads have cropped up expressing a similar concerns have cropped up

A fundamental issue about forcefield -Morrow

And there were a whole bunch of Fungal threads, but this the one that pushed me to get a move on organizing my thoughts and planning this next one out:

Fixing Forcefield, Fungal Growth and Vortex -kcdc


Also from the latest Browder video, it seems that that they are leaning towards making Fungal a projectile. I think that could probably help. There may be a variety of solutions to the problem. However, I think many of these complaints speak to a far broader problem that underlies the spell system of SC2.

A major underlying problem is that the spells are simply too prevalent in SC2 game-play. Spell casters that can limit the movement on the other side are playing too great a role in SC2's battles.

Before spells were icing on the cake. We had the foundation of a much slower economy (no maxing on a few bases at 12 minutes), units that weren't a-move by design and strong defender's advantage that led to very positional game. And the spells were the icing. The moments of spectacle that stood out from the strong foundations. However, now spells are having to do the heavy lifting to make the game interesting due to an extremely fast maxing and remaxing economy/ macro mechanics and minimized defender's advantage, and sluggish unit handling.

Our cake is made mostly of icing and while icing is good, it's a bit much.

[image loading]
Pretty tasty, but we might just get sick of it.

The domination of these sorts of spells on SC2 game play is due in large part by how easy it is to cast off a whole bunch at once. Think about any spell that is a problem. From Fungals to Force fields, what if there was a way to have a whole lot less of them? Would they be so much of a problem then?

It is time to take another look at Smart Casting. Similar to my Overkill blog, I'd like to make the case that Smart Casting is not truly smart or at the very least that it is a design choice with different implications rather than it simply being the 'smarter' option.

There are many consequences intended and unintended by adding Smart Casting. I will look at three major areas.
1) Spells that do damage
2) Spells that restrict movement
3) View-ability/ Spectating.

I do have Cliff Notes spoiler underneath. There are a couple additional points that I didn't address in my videos. These I'll indicate with red.

A Plead/Caution
Please hold off on the "fighting against the game/interface" argument. Just temporarily put it aside and read the OP and if it still applies, then I guess have at it.

The reason why I want you to hold off is because spell-casters are already a conscious choice to make the game more difficult. We don't have to have spell-casters at all in an RTS. Adding spell-casters intentionally adds a unit that does NOT have have an automated attack and REQUIRES you to manually cast or it will be in-effective. We are adding difficulty to the game on purpose simply by designing spell-casters.

If you want to talk about fighting against the interface, start there. Because the question is not whether we are making the game difficult with Smart casting or not, but to what extent? And then what is the consequences on the game-play of adding so-called Smart casting vs not having it?

What is Smart-Casting?
Smart-casting disallows simultaneous casting. In BW, if you have a group of casters selected, you hit cast a spell, all will fire off their spells. If they are grouped together, the spells will go off in the same area. If they are selected when spread, the spells will go off spread out. (Magic Box casting.) If some spell casters are further behind, the spells may be staggerd. More on this in my videos.

SC2, if you have a group of casters, you cast only one will go off no matter what. You must click the ground repeatedly to get them to cast. Thus hold 'f' and spam click to get a wall of Force-Fields.

1) Damage Casters and Smart-casting.

Part 1


Summary Spoilered + Show Spoiler +


Part 2


Summary Spoilered + Show Spoiler +

2) Spells that Restrict Unit Movement



Summary Spoilered + Show Spoiler +

3) Smart-casting and Spectating


I used annotations to clarify a couple points.

Summary Spoilered + Show Spoiler +

Side note on Vortex - I mentioned Vortex is a different category and it really is.
+ Show Spoiler +

Conclusion:


There are many threads that have recently appeared that critique the dominant role that Fungals and FF's are having on the game-play This critique has little to do with balance and more to do with spell-casters playing too large a role in the battles. They need to be toned down somehow so that they units go back to being a support unit that is unique and not core army composition.

There may be several solutions to this problem.

However, I believe getting rid of smart-cast would go a long way to solving this issue. Smart-casting was added with good intentions: too make spell-casting easier. However, the intended and unintended consequences are such that I don't think it is actually 'smart.'

Adding spell-casters to a game is by design, intentional difficulty. There are good reasons to keep spell-casting difficult and rare(r).

1) Smart-casting dilutes damage spells.
i) It spreads out the damage on the assumption that more will be cast. This doesn't necessarily make it all that easy for that casual player we are concerned about. It's easier to cast more, but we also moved the bar so they must cast more. We dropped the damage so the individual spell is less satisfying.
ii) Individual spell placement is less important as they are more spread over a wider area.
iii) This impacts damage casters as harass units because harassment requires rapid damage in concentrated areas. Not spread out over the screen.
iv) And we turn spell casting into a mundane affair rather than a spectacular event.

2) Smart-casting makes locking down armies far to easy.
i) This type of spell/ ability is not bad on its own, but smart-casting allows the spell a too dominant position.
ii) It becomes more about controlling your enemy's units rather than you controlling your own units better. (Better attack-retreat micro would alleviate this need for so many spells.)
iii) The greater role these sorts of spells have on the game-play, the more frustrating the game becomes to play. Otherwise it becomes a game of Casters preventing each others armies from moving.


3) Smart-casting (and adding more and more spells) means that it is much more likely that the screen becomes far too cluttered with many different spells.
-I would argue this is one of the reasons that WoW arenas and MOBA team battles are not as good a viewing experience.
-SC2 is pushing into this zone with the number of spells and the frequency they are used.
-Certain spells are not very obvious what they do and are therefore not good for spectating.
-Making similar looking spells is also not ideal.

Last edit: 2012-11-21 16:28:29
If any man says he hates war more than I do, he had better have a knife, that is all I have to say. Jack Handey. (Passafist/ sGs.Passafist- sporadic member of sGs on iCCup)
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 Plansix   United States. November 21 2012 11:23. Posts 5391
Profile Blog # 
Well written, though I still don't 100% know what smart casting is, beyond that it makes casting spells easier, somehow. However, I am becoming tired of development threads and deep inner workings of the SC2 interface. They just lead to an endless line of kids who never played BW claiming that the game should be more like BW, even though they would be terrible at BW.
Nony on PvT: "It's not imbalanced, the protoss wins and then there is a five minute death animation for the Terran"
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  Falling   Canada. November 21 2012 11:31. Posts 6380Profile Blog # 
Ah right, I had not thought to include what smart-casting is. Thanks for the reminder.
Last edit: 2012-11-21 11:32:56
If any man says he hates war more than I do, he had better have a knife, that is all I have to say. Jack Handey. (Passafist/ sGs.Passafist- sporadic member of sGs on iCCup)
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 Sabu113   United States. November 21 2012 11:47. Posts 6254
Profile Blog # 
I love your series of threads on these subjects. I mean this in the best way, but occasionally they read more as why BW was great rather than how SC2 needs to change.

Spells are generally less valuable and consequently less interesting because they are easily used and balanced because you feasibly spam 8 HTs. The research for storm finishing is less dramatic because storm isnt necessarily going to help you be aggressive or land some dramatic game changing/saving harass for 300 gas.

The problem is that you can't have Bio in the same game that a few skillfully deployed spells can be dropped. The increased radius would dramatically increase the usefulness of storm/templar in a game that already doesn't really see masses of high templar running about. Dodging storms is just too iffy an issue for units with half the health of BW hydras(*~).

In fact beyond the infestor I don't know if that's an issue. Forcefields just by design are a razors edge. Manual cast is not going to stop ramp shennanigans. It will reduce the usefulness of the spell in more open areas though even with a concievable buff in size.

So if you're going to play a bio-strong game I think you have to go with the smart-cast blanket the screen style storm. Otherwise a lot of these spells designed around easy use just don't make sense and the risk/reward ratio will go out of skew.

Also we talk about casual friendly games. Smart cast gateways definitely has made sc2 a lot more fun for me to take "seriously" than the few games I botched on iccup. Viewing spectacle aside, if we're caring about the fanbase, things like hotkeyable storm puts the 5 hour a week low apm guy playing at a semi-competitive level where the play apes pro-play enough to be interesting and not weird.

I think a side takeaway from this thread would be changing the game yet borrowing certain artifacts from BW. HT design seems out of line with sc2 in terms of cost and utility.

edit: sorry for the edit, didn't phrase my original sentiments well.
Last edit: 2012-11-21 12:02:42
"But looking at player’s responses, I think they are correct in calling it “Terrancraft.”- Coach Park
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 M.R. McThundercrotch   United States. November 21 2012 11:49. Posts 148
Profile # 
There is another way to address these problems without removing "smart" casting: greatly limit the availability of spells and spell casters by increasing energy costs and caster resource costs. Now, you would only get a few Storms; so, you had better make them count.

This shifts the difficulty from a raw mechanical skill to accuracy and decision making. I think this is probably a design preference, though it seems like StarCraft 2 is trying to move away from pure mechanical difficulty; so, this solution might be more likely.

Personally, I prefer accuracy over mechanics, but then my mechanics are terrible.
Last edit: 2012-11-21 11:54:29
On June 30 2012 01:42 iNcontroL wrote: Fuck a lot of you. Fuck you forever.
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  Falling   Canada. November 21 2012 11:56. Posts 6380Profile Blog # 
You could address it by limiting the energy. That takes out a lot of spells from the game. But I think that flattens the skill difference top to bottom even more. Certainly there would be a greater importance on the individual cast. But it now becomes even easier for the top level players to get off all the storms. Therefore storms are even more of a hum-drum affair minus the accuracy part.

Part of the excitement of non-'smart'-casting is there is no such hard cap. There is a lot of potential spells, but it is impossible for a player to be fast enough to get them all off. Therefore the spells are balanced on the assumption that they won't all get off. But then, if a fast enough player comes along- the results are spectacular.

Higher energy cost deals with the clutter, but not necessarily with the fun/skill factor of trying to get more and more of these seemingly OP spells off.

The most extreme example of what I'm talking about is of course the mothership. There is only one of it and only 2? Vortexes at max energy. Therefore the accuracy of those Vortexes are paramount. We've limited the number of spells by energy cost (and unit numbers) But this doesn't quite lead to the excitement of the Jangbi storms.

How much difference would you really see between Hero's Vortex compared to a Bronze league Vortex? Probably its effectiveness is going to be more contingent on their opponent clumping up rather than a most excellent Vortex of pro-league levels.
Last edit: 2012-11-21 12:20:34
If any man says he hates war more than I do, he had better have a knife, that is all I have to say. Jack Handey. (Passafist/ sGs.Passafist- sporadic member of sGs on iCCup)
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 zlefin   November 21 2012 11:59. Posts 72
Profile Blog # 
making the interface worse, making units dumber, is NEVER a good way to balance things; it just annoys people; whatever benefits it might allegedly yield; the drawbacks are far worse. find another way.
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  Falling   Canada. November 21 2012 12:02. Posts 6380Profile Blog # 

On November 21 2012 11:59 zlefin wrote:
making the interface worse, making units dumber, is NEVER a good way to balance things; it just annoys people; whatever benefits it might allegedly yield; the drawbacks are far worse. find another way.

Did you read or watch anything in the OP?

Spell-casters are by design a more difficult unit, therefore 'worse interface, making units dumber.' Given that spell casters are designed to be difficult, to what extent should they difficult? What are the draw-backs in terms of game-play that you get when you don't have spell-casting? I've listed a great number of benefits.

Besides- smart-casting is slower than magic-box casting. The interface denies you the possibility of casting spells simultaneously.
Last edit: 2012-11-21 12:05:42
If any man says he hates war more than I do, he had better have a knife, that is all I have to say. Jack Handey. (Passafist/ sGs.Passafist- sporadic member of sGs on iCCup)
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 M.R. McThundercrotch   United States. November 21 2012 12:18. Posts 148
Profile # 

On November 21 2012 11:56 Falling wrote:
Higher energy cost deals with the clutter, but not necessarily with the fun/skill factor of trying to get more and more of these seemingly OP spells off.


I think it is a matter of preference - the difference between hitting that smooth rhythm of fast casting or making that one money click that turns the tide.



How much difference would you really see between Hero's Vortex compared to a Bronze league Vortex? Probably it's effectiveness is going to be more contingent on their opponent clumping up rather than a most excellent Vortex of pro-league levels.


I did not realize how it would shift the skill burden from the caster to his opponent. It may not be feasible for a player to keep his units constantly space out, but there would definitely be a greater level of skill involved attempting it than in attempting to drop the one big spell. I don't think I like that at all. You're right.
Last edit: 2012-11-21 12:19:47
On June 30 2012 01:42 iNcontroL wrote: Fuck a lot of you. Fuck you forever.
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 sAsImre   November 21 2012 12:36. Posts 2981
Profile Blog # 
Falling's series on sc2 general, dunno what to expect. I don't know if smartcasting is the main problem but for me the fact one race has to mass a spellcaster in mid/lategame because it's the most efficient way of playing is kinda dumb. And it concerns IT's too...
 
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 Zanno   United States. November 21 2012 12:37. Posts 1433
Profile Blog # 
why not just increase the mechanical difficulty of the spells by shortening their mana cost and durations proportionately

for example, imagine if force fields were only 15 energy but only lasted 5 blizzard seconds

trying to juggle targeting and positioning your army correctly while juggling carving up the enemy with force field walls suddenly requires a lot more dexterity to do

i think this argument is plain and simple wrong for one reason - the spellcasting UI in starcraft 1 was actually a huge oversight caused in starcraft's beta test - spells like psi storm originally behaved very similar to blizzard in warcraft 2 where it stacked endlessly and damaged buildings

so there was a originally an actual reason to throw 12 storms at one target, same with multiple dmatrixes providing an endless shield and multiple plagues resulting in an immediate drop to 1 hp

the change to spells no longer stacking was a last minute tweak right before the game's release and they never stopped to consider the implications it had on the controls
Last edit: 2012-11-21 12:37:48
aaaaa
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  Falling   Canada. November 21 2012 12:40. Posts 6380Profile Blog # 
An unintended feature is no problem if the features turns out to be beneficial. (For instance Street Fighter 2's combo system and Quake's Strafe-jumping.)

And yes, this would also affect Infested Terran as well. It would be a pretty big shake-up for the balance. But I think it would be worth it for all the above reasons.
Last edit: 2012-11-21 12:44:26
If any man says he hates war more than I do, he had better have a knife, that is all I have to say. Jack Handey. (Passafist/ sGs.Passafist- sporadic member of sGs on iCCup)
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 GolemMadness   Canada. November 21 2012 12:48. Posts 4910
Profile Blog # 
Strafe jumping in Quake 2 was sweet. Stuff like that and patrol microing vultures were a hell of a lot more fun than spamming storm and fungal all over the place.
 
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 Valikyr   Sweden. November 21 2012 12:53. Posts 2226
Profile # 
I think this would be a really cool solution to the problem.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell- --- Team Property Member - Property-clan.com
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 Patate   Canada. November 21 2012 13:04. Posts 341
Profile # 
I'm all for this: higher APM players should be rewarded.. the skill ceiling has to go up . Campaign coudl be smart-casting for the people who don't want an annoying interface,but multiplayer should always try to be more friendly to the ones who are faster and better.

The "sport" would also be better to watch.. it is hard to be amazed by someone's micro right now (multitask, maybe.. but not micro). I feel bad for the casters having to hype those "amazing forcefields" and those "great fungal growths".. This is nothing impressing (and we can extrapolate to SC2 as a whole).
Last edit: 2012-11-21 13:06:44
Dead game.
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 justjuice   New Zealand. November 21 2012 13:09. Posts 138
Profile # 
AMAZING FUNGALS SO SKILLFUL.. no
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 WolfintheSheep   Canada. November 21 2012 13:44. Posts 1768
Profile # 
Here's the problem with removing smartcasting: Everything else will still be smart. When you make Forcefields harder to use, and Storms, EMPs and Fungals harder to hit, you're essentially making deathballs and A-moving units better and better.

People need to remember every time they bring up BW: Everything was dumb. Everything. Units had bad pathing, buildings could only be individually selected, attacks would randomly miss, etc. So dumb spellcasters wasn't to balance OP spells, it just put spellcasters on par with everything else.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Old Post

  Falling   Canada. November 21 2012 13:54. Posts 6380Profile Blog # 
@WolfintheSheep
I'm not sure I would say everything was dumber. In fact some stuff was demonstrably 'smarter'- moving shot and a variety of micro tricks.

I would say there was non-uniform army movement and I think that would certainly be worth looking into. (All those threads wanting to change how army movement works.) The current method of army movement is by no means the 'smartest.' I'm sure more spread out army movement could be accomplished without adding 'dumbness."

But this spell-casting thread comes on the heals of two other blogs:

A-Move By Design which indicates how to change unit behaviours to move away from Death Ball. Burst damage/ and cooldowns between attacking and moving. Basically, hold position micro, moving shot micro and the like. I was comparing how Hellion vs Vulture worked (slight delay on hellion.) And Reaver vs Collosus.

and

Levelling the Playing Field which talks about how to get better defenders advantage and therefore move away from Death Balls and more towards a positional game. Although, ultimately better defenders advantage runs hand in hand with easing off on how quickly money is accumulated and spent. (Economy and macro mechanics need to be fixed to move away from 12 min turtle to max.)

In that context, Spell-Casting is the next thing to look at. One of my videos hypothesizes that the reason for so many new abilities and spells is because of the lack of micro tricks like moving shot. It is perhaps a more minor point in my thread than it ought to be, but simply making spells harder to use is not enough I agree.

A greater focus on attack-retreat micro and a de-emphasis on unit-restricting spells would help move away from deathballs and A-moving.
Last edit: 2012-11-21 14:00:02
If any man says he hates war more than I do, he had better have a knife, that is all I have to say. Jack Handey. (Passafist/ sGs.Passafist- sporadic member of sGs on iCCup)
Old Post

 
 YyapSsap   New Zealand. November 21 2012 14:46. Posts 898
Profile # 
Such an excellent post. Its interesting to note that some spells in BW were actually smart castable from my memory but most damage dealing ones had to be manually done. I think the shift in emphasis to troop vs troop is what made the game more exciting where spells and abilities later in the game were kind of like the icying on the cake.

It might put casuals off, but if they get it off correctly the rewards would be huge thanks to the spells being more devastating due to this particular "handicap". I think its a win-win situation, and pros will have more legroom to show why they are pros. Many dont know why "STOOORRRMMMS" in BW is met with such an awe because to pull that off during the engagement is crazily impossible for mere mortals like us.

It would be the best solution to the spellcaster overload we have in SC2 especially when it involves infester/ghost/HT spam along with casters becoming the core composition in some armies.

Dustin needs to be informed of this.
 
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 MikeMM   Russian Federation. November 21 2012 14:59. Posts 88
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It’s really an interesting thread.
IMHO the game would have been better without smart casting.
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