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| ImVirus Sweden. November 28 2012 20:30. Posts 22 | Profile # |
ZvZ - Ling/Bane drops into 2-2 Roach Inf timing
Hey! My name is Gabriel a.k.a Virus and I'm here today to talk about my newest build I've been developing. None of you might know me so just a brief introduction of myself will be available ^^. And this is also my first guide so feedback would be appreciated! 
I'm also adding the guide into spoilers so you can jump over parts if you don't feel like they're important! Tell me if you think they're annoying and I'll remove them :D
Fast Introduction
+ Show Spoiler +I'm a 15 year old swedish zerg play that is currently sitting at mid-master and I barely play standard and love unorthodox and aggressive play. I'm also currently playing for EchO starcraft
Who would sit down and think about a 9min ling/bane drop in ZvZ?
+ Show Spoiler + Hehe I would xD This is what I love to do. Imo standard is boring and I like to spice the game up abit. So how did I think about this build. I've been doing the ling/bane drop in ZvP recently that TangSC has written a guide on (link will be at the bottom of the guide) and I was thinking, why can't I do this in other matchups? And from there I started writing up alot of ideas of how I could accomplish this and boom. This is where I am today
How was it that you thought this was possible?
+ Show Spoiler + Well, that is a great question! I've always liked to follow my instinct and try what others don't. I wrote up my ideas in a WordPad document and here they are: - 3 Queens (Wanna skip lings as much as possible, and 3rd queen for transfuses at your nat) - Fast Wall Due to double evo and baneling nest (or roach warren?) - Open gas first (hatch before pool?!) into quick 2nd (maybe 3rd?) gas - Use fast lair for a 2-2 roach / infestor timing - Baneling drops in his mineral line (continuesly?!) will keep him busy and it will be hard for him to move out - Needs ALOT of gas (early 1st-2nd-3rd(-4th?) gas) - Will look like a quick muta build which will make this build catch him off guard (but him making spores will be a problem!) - You will get alot of scouting info with the lings in his base Alot of what I wrote there though did make a difference in the build ofc but they weren't all a part of the build, for example the gas first is nomore 
Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +- 15 Pool - 16 Hatch - 15 Overlord - 15 Queen - @ 100% Queen start another one - 17 Lings - 18 - 3:20 gas - 24 Overlord - 4:20-4:30 Bane Nest (OR roach warren, you decide) - 100 gas = Lair - After lair start a spine (if you want to) - Next 100 gas = Speed - 5:00-5:15 Double Gas - 5:45-6:00 Roach Warren - Lair @ 100% - Overlord Drop and Speed (Drop first if you can't afford both at the same time) - 7:15 Double Evo - Speed @ 50% - Bane nest - 46 (Saturated w/ 3 gas, 2 queens, 2 lings) Overlord - 46-60 Lings - 60 Start 1-1 (Ranged and Carapace) Edit: I realised that you could fit a bane nest BEFORE lair! This will make the push a little delayed, but it will take a while for you to get your lings in position anyways! Drop tech should be done at 8:50 if played correctly! You can get a roach warren instead if you want to, it depends what you like the most! IF you want to you can get a bane nest with your next 50 gas after lair, it will delay speed, drops and ovi speed but if you feel like you wanna be extra safe, do that. Now some of you are probably thinking "Oh why pool first that's not as eco as hatch first". Actually it is. Fenn3r has done a video showing this and I will link that one in the bottom of the guide aswell This build also relies on scouting, since you will get a late baneling nest (if you open roach warren) you will be very killed by speedling allins (if you don't have roaches out). If you scout him going for an all-in roaches with a wall-off/semi-wall off are great. If you see him coming you can just build 3-4 evos and wall off aswell, TLO does this alot.
Transition
+ Show Spoiler +You want to execute the first five actions below when you reach 60 supply (while you attack!)
- Overlord
- 4th gas
- Infestation pit
- Roach speed
- Take a third (Unless he doesn't have one!)
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- 2-2
- 40-50% @ 2-2 start hive
- Do a 2-2 Roach Infestor timing
REMEMBER, keep baneling/ling (maybe even roaches) dropping him! This will keep him INSIDE his base and scared to move out. Drop like terrans do in TvZ, 2-3 overlords with lings at his main, 2 at his 3rd while pushing with roach inf ! Will make him out of position. This is a great thing to do while doing the 2-2 timing. Drop some lings in his main and some at his nat/3rd while pushing in the middle.
Transitioning out of the 2-2 timing
- Start 3-3
- Hydra den
- Take a third and fourth (hopefully the third should already be up though)
- Commit to a 3-3 Roach Hydra Infestor attack and kill him off (you SHOULD have the upgrade advantage though)
- If you don't manage to kill him, transition to any hive tech unit of your liking!
How should I execute this drop?
+ Show Spoiler +You will want to drop 4 banelings in one overlord at his natural (if he pulls drone from his main to his natural WAIT until they get there. If he keeps them in his main just go drop his natural asap. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/L8fyM.jpg) Here is an example of how to drop on Ohana. Also, if you click your overlord that has lings in it and press D and then click on the ovi you can move while dropping, it's a really good technique. DON'T forget to clear watchtowers so he won't see all your lings moving out and seeing them + banes getting loaded into the overlord. As I showed you on this picture, you should only drop banes at his nat or 3rd. BUT you can also make 4 banes and drop them in the main aswell. But then I suggest you bring 5 overlords ^^ Drop them on the drones when they run away! :D And, when they drones have gone too far away from your lings or his army is coming try to focus down the hatch and see if you can kill it! It will go down sometimes, I promise ;D A good drop would be like this: 3 Overlords in his main, 1 with banes the other 2 with lings -- 1 Overlord at his 3rd with banes and a ling runby to his natural with like 8-10 lings (This is if he has a third! Otherwise just drop in his main with lings and banes and bane drop his nat. If he has 3 bases do a ling runby to the nat aswell ) After you've gotten a successful hit (12+ drones) be wary of all-ins and don't put so much effort into your drops! If hes still on 2 base he WILL all-in. If hes on 3 base, while dropping try to snipe the 3rd. If he loses drones while still on 3 base he will probably not counter.
Counters
+ Show Spoiler +Two base muta:This can be really deadly because he will be able to shut down drops. But you should still be able to do the initial drop and since he went mutas you soon will have your inf out and with the inf out you can go for a 1-1 or 2-2 roach inf timing, cause if he has mutas he probably doesn't have much else. Also, start 2 more queens! Roach Counter Attack:This will be like an all-in from him cause hes lost alot of drones. But while you dropped you should've started your inf pit (so you soon got inf) and roach prod and you should have 1-1 soon. So a counter should be held if controlled correctly by you! Speedling All-in:As I said, you NEED to scout this or you're dead. You will have a roach warren yes but it will take faster than 27sec (build time for a roach) for the speedlings to get to your side of the map. So if you scout it (low drone count on the nat, or just sending 1/2 ling(s) up into his main) start roach production and walloff with evos or a semi walloff so you can fit a roach or queen there
I Just held an all-in, what should I do now?
+ Show Spoiler +If it's an early all-in, like a speedling all in just counter attack with roaches. So if it's an early ling/bane all-in, counter with roaches! You will be miles ahead, and roaches against lings are goooood. Or you can simply macro up since you will be ahead. If you hold an all-in I do NOT suggest you going with the ling/bane drops just because you do that to try to get an advantage in the game, you already have one now that you held an all-in. Sooooo why risk it? :D I would suggest getting a bane nest asap so you can secure your third (it will make things much easier) and then going for a 3 base 2-2 roach inf timing This should probably kill him because you are so far ahead! So either macro up and do a 2-2 3 base roach inf timing or counter with roaches!
How to react to different situations
+ Show Spoiler +A zerg still on 2 base spined up and probably alot of queens:Well, I've been against this a couple of times and you should still take your third but CANCEL or DON'T use your infestation pit, you will just want to mass roaches and put 3+ spines at your nat and 3+ spines at your 3rd. You should be able to hold with roach/queen since he is gonna all-in. Also be prepared for mutas! If you suspect mutas, let your inf pit complete and start throwing down spores and start infestors . The opponent keeps macroing after losing alot:Just follow the transition! The opponent got mutas:I've written how to deal with it in the counters section! You don't manage to do enough damage and he's on 3 base:This situation is really tricky since you spent sooo much into drop tech. What you will need to do is get him out of position with drops and kill his 3rd. It's the ONLY way almost. Or keep dropping until you do enough damage. While dropping you should do the transition! You manage to kill alot while he's on 3 base (for example, sniped his 3rd and killed 10+ drones):Be wary of all-ins and don't put so much effort into your drops! If hes still on 2 base he WILL all-in. If hes on 3 base, while dropping try to snipe the 3rd. If he loses drones while still on 3 base he will probably not counter. If you can think of more situations please write them in the comments and I will put up how you react to them!
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +If you guys want a replay against AI tell me, but right now I'm still trying to get some good reps for you guys! I just finished the build so it's hard to already have them hehe ;D They will be coming soon! Don't worry
Links
+ Show Spoiler +
That's pretty much it guys. If you have any other questions please ask them in the comments, this guide was done pretty fast but I dunno what else to write since I don't have any guide writing experience T.T Please tell me what I've missed and I'll add it!
Feel free to add me on EU (xpVirus#973)
Hopefully this guide will inspire more players to make ZvZ a bit more fun ;D
Poll
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Do you think this is a good build to have in your ZvZ arsenal?Yes (14) 74% No (5) 26% 19 total votes Your vote: Do you think this is a good build to have in your ZvZ arsenal? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
I would also like to say thank you to Tang who has been my coach for a long time now and has been my inspiration to do this build Keep it up!
//VirusLast edit: 2013-02-04 22:21:37 |
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| dynwar7 November 28 2012 22:06. Posts 1945 | Profile # |
| Nice to see some drops being utilized in ZvZ |
| | Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves.... |
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| Moxi November 28 2012 22:14. Posts 686 | Profile Blog # |
| Sounds like a nice build that's well thought through, keep it up. |
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| crbox Canada. November 28 2012 22:39. Posts 871 | Profile # |
If the guy just goes standard muta on 2 base, doesn't it just blind counters it? Or also even more standard just roach on 2bases into infestor, that would destroy your build too unless he just took a risky third and droned up.
I don't know how this could work honestly |
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| CrowbarSC2 Sweden. November 28 2012 23:00. Posts 22 | Profile # |
drops is very underused by Zergs in general, and using it in ZvZ will make it more dynamic and multitask intensive since most ZvZ you macro and just move around with your main army, and the only harrassive strategies that are being used today is mostly ling runbys and burrowed infestor harrass, love to see this!
And this build has an early 3rd covered since the follow up is a big 3 base roach 2-2 timing attack that will surely kill the 3rd most of the times. But i don't about mutas |
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| ImVirus Sweden. November 28 2012 23:03. Posts 22 | Profile # |
On November 28 2012 22:39 crbox wrote:
If the guy just goes standard muta on 2 base, doesn't it just blind counters it? Or also even more standard just roach on 2bases into infestor, that would destroy your build too unless he just took a risky third and droned up.
I don't know how this could work honestly
Reallllly fast muta on 2base is good to deny drops but you will still be able to drop your first banes and lings into his base. And a roach timing won't kill you if he counters, you have a roach warren up and you SHOULD have started roach production during the drop. And since you're getting infestors soon aswell you should be in good shape. It will also make him stay defensive and most zergs I've been against started to drone again after I killed most of their drones so counters and mutas CAN be a problem if not dealt with correctly. I will add a counter section to the guide soon! Thanks for the feedback
I've added how to deal with the things you just said in the counter section! :D
And also, voidrays/phoenixes doesn't counter my ZvP drop build :D A different thing I know, but just sayin.Last edit: 2012-11-28 23:09:39 |
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| crbox Canada. November 28 2012 23:22. Posts 871 | Profile # |
On November 28 2012 23:03 ImVirus wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 22:39 crbox wrote:
If the guy just goes standard muta on 2 base, doesn't it just blind counters it? Or also even more standard just roach on 2bases into infestor, that would destroy your build too unless he just took a risky third and droned up.
I don't know how this could work honestly
Reallllly fast muta on 2base is good to deny drops but you will still be able to drop your first banes and lings into his base. And a roach timing won't kill you if he counters, you have a roach warren up and you SHOULD have started roach production during the drop. And since you're getting infestors soon aswell you should be in good shape. It will also make him stay defensive and most zergs I've been against started to drone again after I killed most of their drones so counters and mutas CAN be a problem if not dealt with correctly. I will add a counter section to the guide soon! Thanks for the feedback I've added how to deal with the things you just said in the counter section! :D And also, voidrays/phoenixes doesn't counter my ZvP drop build :D A different thing I know, but just sayin.
2 base standard roach /w lair wouldn't kill you, but the point is you invested in a lot of useless things while he got a standard good force. If you don't do damage you're game endingly (lol) behind. He could either pressure while taking a third or just safely go infestors and some spines. Then you're timing off two bases would be irrelevant if he does defend it well enough. I'm sure it's the kind of build that catches people off guard from time to time and if you do get several drones, then you're in a good spot, but if defended correctly, you should end up pretty behind. You really shouldn't follow it with a timing unless you do critical damage. Maybe practice taking a third and teching to infestors while keeping him in his base with like 8 roaches drop.
Also, aren't muta out by 9min I'm not on my comp so I can't really check, but when you go muta I mean, you go muta, there's no like "fast" or "slow" muta build in zvz (unless you skip like ling speed -.-) I think standard just normal muta build comes out earlier, and then it's game.
EDIT: On another end, drop play in zvz is really refreshing and good in mid-late game zvz It's actually way more reliable then nydus too ^_^Last edit: 2012-11-28 23:24:34 |
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| ImVirus Sweden. November 28 2012 23:37. Posts 22 | Profile # |
On November 28 2012 23:22 crbox wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 23:03 ImVirus wrote:
On November 28 2012 22:39 crbox wrote:
If the guy just goes standard muta on 2 base, doesn't it just blind counters it? Or also even more standard just roach on 2bases into infestor, that would destroy your build too unless he just took a risky third and droned up.
I don't know how this could work honestly
Reallllly fast muta on 2base is good to deny drops but you will still be able to drop your first banes and lings into his base. And a roach timing won't kill you if he counters, you have a roach warren up and you SHOULD have started roach production during the drop. And since you're getting infestors soon aswell you should be in good shape. It will also make him stay defensive and most zergs I've been against started to drone again after I killed most of their drones so counters and mutas CAN be a problem if not dealt with correctly. I will add a counter section to the guide soon! Thanks for the feedback I've added how to deal with the things you just said in the counter section! :D And also, voidrays/phoenixes doesn't counter my ZvP drop build :D A different thing I know, but just sayin.
2 base standard roach /w lair wouldn't kill you, but the point is you invested in a lot of useless things while he got a standard good force. If you don't do damage you're game endingly (lol) behind. He could either pressure while taking a third or just safely go infestors and some spines. Then you're timing off two bases would be irrelevant if he does defend it well enough. I'm sure it's the kind of build that catches people off guard from time to time and if you do get several drones, then you're in a good spot, but if defended correctly, you should end up pretty behind. You really shouldn't follow it with a timing unless you do critical damage. Maybe practice taking a third and teching to infestors while keeping him in his base with like 8 roaches drop. Also, aren't muta out by 9min I'm not on my comp so I can't really check, but when you go muta I mean, you go muta, there's no like "fast" or "slow" muta build in zvz (unless you skip like ling speed -.-) I think standard just normal muta build comes out earlier, and then it's game. EDIT: On another end, drop play in zvz is really refreshing and good in mid-late game zvz It's actually way more reliable then nydus too ^_^
Yeah you have to do some damage with it otherwise you're behind (maybe not ALWAYS game breaking but you will always be behind), but that makes the game more fun to play. Either you can get super ahead, super behind or even it out. It makes the game more fun to play and this should be a build available in every zergs arsenal imo! Hope you agree. |
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 syntox Australia. November 28 2012 23:48. Posts 26 | Profile # |
On November 28 2012 23:43 Mavvie wrote:
You need a fast Baneling nest or you die to Speedling all ins 100% guaranteed.
What? This is an incredibly stupid thing to say. You can hold speedling allins without banelings provided you defend correctly. |
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| porygon361 November 28 2012 23:54. Posts 79 | Profile # |
For the wall-in part, you could use my guide to Zerg wall-ins. It might be helpful against ling all-ins and baneling-busts.
A very well done writeup! I might just go try it myself |
| | "Sometimes life is like this dark tunnel. You can't always see the light at the end of the tunnel. But if you just keep moving, you will come to a better place." |
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| ImVirus Sweden. November 28 2012 23:55. Posts 22 | Profile # |
On November 28 2012 23:43 Mavvie wrote:
Show nested quote +This build also relies on scouting, since you will get a late baneling nest you will be very killed by speedling allins (if you don't have roaches out).
Roaches can't defend against a Speedling all in. You need a fast Baneling nest or you die to Speedling all ins 100% guaranteed. Other than that good writeup! seems fun and interesting, i probably learn this to use in a tournament game
Roaches are really good to hold speedlings allins with. If the roaches get surrounded you're dead. Get a wall-off up with evos and block off the nat with evos and roaches (or queens). Roaches are actually suprisingly good vs speed all-ins. |
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| kuehlschrank Germany. November 28 2012 23:57. Posts 17 | Profile # |
| Great build and writeup. I will check it out this weekend. I would like, the idea to show rhe roachwarren in front of your expansion since it can lead your opponent to overinvest in defence when he scouts no third base :-) |
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| ImVirus Sweden. November 29 2012 00:07. Posts 22 | Profile # |
On November 28 2012 23:57 kuehlschrank wrote:
Great build and writeup. I will check it out this weekend. I would like, the idea to show rhe roachwarren in front of your expansion since it can lead your opponent to overinvest in defence when he scouts no third base :-)
Yeah I've been discussing this with my teammates, but some of them say that if they scout a roach warren that early they take a third, cause roaches are so slow and while the roaching player denies his third the ling player can deny the roaching players third cause the lings are soooo fast. But I think it's good if they take a third because then they will go for macro and that means that while you have done the ling drops and have about 16+ roaches you can kill their third while you take yours, because they will focus on getting their drone count back up |
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| 2vs2AiLillekanin Denmark. November 29 2012 02:09. Posts 108 | Profile # |
| Zerg drops are good :D But under used for sure. ! This strategy might work. But following a recipe without reacting to ur scouting information is never a good idea :-). Scout'n'react is the way to go ! But using drops in ZvZ would be interesting. |
| | 2on2 stream: http://da.twitch.tv/lillekanin |
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| ImVirus Sweden. November 29 2012 02:11. Posts 22 | Profile # |
On November 29 2012 02:09 2vs2AiLillekanin wrote:
Zerg drops are good :D But under used for sure. ! This strategy might work. But following a recipe without reacting to ur scouting information is never a good idea :-). Scout'n'react is the way to go ! But using drops in ZvZ would be interesting.
The only thing you really need to scout for is speedling all-ins! Otherwise it's all gooooooood :D |
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| Thalandros Netherlands. November 29 2012 02:19. Posts 229 | Profile Blog # |
| Looks pretty promising, gonna try this out later tonight. Thanks =) |
| | Definate LGIM.NesTea, Ax.CranK and StarTale.Life fan! |
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| TheOnlyRedViper Norway. November 29 2012 02:27. Posts 20 | Profile # |
Well written guide and an intresting concept indeed.
It seems like a fun build to add into your list of bo's , just maybe not something I will imagine would be a solid build tho,
I could be wrong indeed.
I will try it out for sure ! :D |
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| Sapp Poland. November 29 2012 02:43. Posts 173 | Profile # |
| Nice read but personaly I think that dropping in zvz is dumb. Overlords > drops, especialty while they don't need to be worry of being killed from the ground like in zvt or zvp... |
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| JDub United States. November 29 2012 02:46. Posts 903 | Profile # |
You mention in your build that getting an earlier baneling nest slows down ling speed, ovy drops, and ovy speed. However, in your build order you basically say get ovy drops + speed right after lair finishes. Because drops take so much longer to research than speed, would it be possible to get your ling speed 50 gas late, your ovy drops right on time, and your ovy speed 50 gas late, while going for that early baneling nest? This wouldn't actually delay your drop timing at all, since the ovy speed upgrade researches much more quickly than ovy drops.
I say this just b/c I worry about defending speedling all-ins w/out a baneling nest. I know you say you have to scout them, but depending on the map (can you have an ovy seeing their natural mineral line) and your opponents ability to deny scouting / fool you (e.g. transfer a bunch of drones to nat even though they are making lings), in some cases you just need to be able to react when you see the lings running out of their base. |
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Mavvie Canada. November 28 2012 23:43. Posts 850
