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| SSVnormandy France. December 11 2012 20:22. Posts 124 | Profile # |
Hi everyone,
Diamond terran here.
I wanted to discuss about the new reaper and the TvT matchup.
I played a few games mostly TvT and I wanted to share and discuss about way to deal with reaper opening and associated different brain games I encountered.
I wanted to discuss more about solutions than comments like : "reaper is imba anyway"
Here is what i do for the moment :
phase 1 : SCOUTING
I will list different kind of situations i encountered that could lead to reaper play or counter reaper play
1) your opponent have his barrack in his main and tech lab directly with no marine (so you scout it)
2) No barracks in main but gas mining
3) your opponent have barrack in main, blocked scouting with supply and pops a marine before doing anything else
(if people can add different openings situations i will be glad to know them )
Phase 2 : Analysis
what can he bring out now from theses openings ?
from opening 1) and 3) there is a very high probability that your opponent will open reaper. The question you will ask yourself is how many rax he has built as one obvious counter to reaper is to have more reaper than your opponent. Getting the info is hard though.
the opening 2 is the hard one ! Your opponent can go proxy reaper 1 or 2 rax but also proxy marauder 1 or 2 rax. when you scout the proxy you see tech labs and unit in production but you still don't know if it is reaper or marauders.
Phase 3 : reaction
my reaction to situation 1) and 3) i found that on most maps, to be safe I should go at least 2 rax reaper to counter your opponent doing the same thing. And after that it is a fight of micro/luck and assign your reapers to either harass your opponent or defend.
I find marauders very expensive and hard to use on big maps like Korhal city, Star station. But with a wall at cliff ,you can do marauders on akilon wastes.
my reaction to situation 2) is to be forced to go marauder because if my opponent go marauder and i go reaper i will die or having hard time repairing a bunker and loose lots of scv the time my reapers kills slowly marauders.
so my opponent forced me to go marauder and damn he gets reapers instead of marauders ! Now, i have to only defend and get a good amount of reaper or marauder force to deal with this very aggressive harass. I eventually try to get siege tanks to safe expand.
I feel that my reactions are for now kind of dumb but i didn't find anything else for now to counter reaper or "possibility of reaper" openings from my opponent. And i'm frustrated doing what i'm doing because wheter i win or i loose i feel that is only because of my/his lack of micro at one moment or luck.
So i would like to ask what more original solutions you guys found to deal with the 3 different reaper openings i mentionned.
I think that the solution could be to find a safe way to go factory/starport tech to finally deal with those reapers, but I never succeded to do something working right now.
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| Killmouse Austria. December 11 2012 20:27. Posts 3634 | Profile # |
| I go blind marauder with shell into cc and more raxes cauz T goes 99%reaper |
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| Everlong Czech Republic. December 11 2012 20:31. Posts 1368 | Profile # |
Well, here is what I do.
I just pump marines non-stop from naked rax and rush for tank.. So by the time 1st reaper (even from proxy rax) arrives I have at least 3 marines and I can hold it comfortably. It's very important to stay behind your wall and not right at the edge of your cliff with your marines. You need to be positioned so that when the reaper jumps up you will then engage immidiately and do free damage when he jumps down. He should not commit at this point to more reapers, or he is automatically behind.
It's ok to let them damage your depot, just wait for your tank. Once your tank is out, you are safe and he is behind (if he builds more than 1 reaper), because you can expand right after your factory.
edit: This way I haven't lost single game to reapers or suffered any damage at all.. I don't know if this build is good or my opponents not playing/microing good.. But I play diamond/master level players.Last edit: 2012-12-11 20:40:31 |
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| Dvriel December 11 2012 20:33. Posts 435 | Profile # |
| Dragon and other master T in HotS streaming go always for 1-1-1.Lot of marines nonstop,bunker and wall on the ramp.Hellions/mines+Medivac stop this.You can also build supply depots near your minerals closing paths where reapers wanna use to block them forcing them go in your base exposed to your army.Pulling some scvs helps too.If you lose 2-3 scvs,thihnh that he lose 2-3 reapers and this is 50 min 50 gas.Much more expensive... |
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| Sissors December 11 2012 20:53. Posts 556 | Profile # |
And at the same time you are 2-3 SCVs behind, which will easily mine that reaper investment if you wait a bit.
Currently I go pretty much standard on TvT 2 rax reapers from 1 (slightly delayed) geyser. My reaper is than out a bit later than the one of the enemy, but he has to get to my base first anyway. Meanwhile together with my initial marine I should kill him. Next since 2 raxes making reapers > 1 rax making reapers I quite often win.
Three marines really wont cut it against a reaper, since the marines have to defend a significant area. So you kill one marine and get out again. Or you get your second/third reaper and kill all of them. Worst case is that I got complete map control but cant get into your main. And if you try a quick tank push I can get again in your main, unless you leave tanks behind.
I am mainly worried about proxy marauders (I think against marauders made from main I should have enough time to prepare), and banshee strategies. Both of them I havent encountered yet though. Since reapers also kill widow mines very fast they arent too problematic. Of course if you go right over a burrowed one you got a problem, but unburrowed you easily kill them before they can burrow, and if you see one burrowing just avoid that spot. If you got 4 reapers (maybe even 3, dunno), you can use a scan to a-move over the widow mines with reapers. |
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| Illiterate Netherlands. December 11 2012 21:05. Posts 45 | Profile Blog # |
I myself am a reapering player. I have found in my 15ish games in which I opened Reaper that you can win outright if your opponent does not react properly but usually I only pick off a good amount of marines and 2-5 SCVs. I go 1 rax reaper and my expansion is not much later than a 1 rax expanding 1 rax tanking player. Going 2 rax reapers is actually very weak if you dont do massive economic damage because your expansion is a lot later than you'd like it to be.
I have experienced that most people were able to take minimal damage from my 1 rax reaper expand build by just building marines out of a naked barracks, but if they follow that up with hellions or a banshee I usually take some damage too (because my general infantry forces are so greatly delayed) that is sort of evens out. The most important thing about defending against reapers is, as stated above, having your marines at the right place, away from the edge. |
| | It's better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt. |
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| Everlong Czech Republic. December 11 2012 21:14. Posts 1368 | Profile # |
On December 11 2012 20:53 Sissors wrote:
And at the same time you are 2-3 SCVs behind, which will easily mine that reaper investment if you wait a bit.
Currently I go pretty much standard on TvT 2 rax reapers from 1 (slightly delayed) geyser. My reaper is than out a bit later than the one of the enemy, but he has to get to my base first anyway. Meanwhile together with my initial marine I should kill him. Next since 2 raxes making reapers > 1 rax making reapers I quite often win.
Three marines really wont cut it against a reaper, since the marines have to defend a significant area. So you kill one marine and get out again. Or you get your second/third reaper and kill all of them. Worst case is that I got complete map control but cant get into your main. And if you try a quick tank push I can get again in your main, unless you leave tanks behind.
I am mainly worried about proxy marauders (I think against marauders made from main I should have enough time to prepare), and banshee strategies. Both of them I havent encountered yet though. Since reapers also kill widow mines very fast they arent too problematic. Of course if you go right over a burrowed one you got a problem, but unburrowed you easily kill them before they can burrow, and if you see one burrowing just avoid that spot. If you got 4 reapers (maybe even 3, dunno), you can use a scan to a-move over the widow mines with reapers.
In my experience, 3 marines + 4th on the way is enough with careful micro to defend 1 reaper.. You might need bunker if it's like super fast proxy reaper, but most of the time, I'm ok with naked rax constant marine production.. Tank comes out really fast, then I'm safe. I just keep my units near cc, so I'm able to defend large are. I don't care reapers attacking my depo. Once tank is out, it's the end for reapers. I expo after my factory, so I'm not behing economically. Or am I? The point is, it's safe. It works for me. I'm not doing push with tank, it's just for defensive purposes. |
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 pOriishan December 11 2012 21:25. Posts 45 | Profile # |
| depend on what i scouted, I could make few Marauders with Shell upgrade then FE or 1-1-1 with nonstop marines and well positional mines. IMO Marauders open into 1-1-1 Banshee or into mines then FE is much more safer |
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| VonComet Slovenia. December 11 2012 21:36. Posts 8 | Profile # |
| I discovered you can do kind of a blind counter to reapers and go for 12gas, 13rax reactor hellions if you do everything right your 2 hellions pop out just as the enemy reaper jumps your cliff and you can proceed to 2 shot him and chase down the next one and you can find yourself in a situation where you have 4 hellions and enemy has at most a marauder and you can kill some scvs or just expand and the game goes on. |
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| Sissors December 11 2012 21:39. Posts 556 | Profile # |
On December 11 2012 21:14 Everlong wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 20:53 Sissors wrote:
And at the same time you are 2-3 SCVs behind, which will easily mine that reaper investment if you wait a bit.
Currently I go pretty much standard on TvT 2 rax reapers from 1 (slightly delayed) geyser. My reaper is than out a bit later than the one of the enemy, but he has to get to my base first anyway. Meanwhile together with my initial marine I should kill him. Next since 2 raxes making reapers > 1 rax making reapers I quite often win.
Three marines really wont cut it against a reaper, since the marines have to defend a significant area. So you kill one marine and get out again. Or you get your second/third reaper and kill all of them. Worst case is that I got complete map control but cant get into your main. And if you try a quick tank push I can get again in your main, unless you leave tanks behind.
I am mainly worried about proxy marauders (I think against marauders made from main I should have enough time to prepare), and banshee strategies. Both of them I havent encountered yet though. Since reapers also kill widow mines very fast they arent too problematic. Of course if you go right over a burrowed one you got a problem, but unburrowed you easily kill them before they can burrow, and if you see one burrowing just avoid that spot. If you got 4 reapers (maybe even 3, dunno), you can use a scan to a-move over the widow mines with reapers.
In my experience, 3 marines + 4th on the way is enough with careful micro to defend 1 reaper.. You might need bunker if it's like super fast proxy reaper, but most of the time, I'm ok with naked rax constant marine production.. Tank comes out really fast, then I'm safe. I just keep my units near cc, so I'm able to defend large are. I don't care reapers attacking my depo. Once tank is out, it's the end for reapers. I expo after my factory, so I'm not behing economically. Or am I? The point is, it's safe. It works for me. I'm not doing push with tank, it's just for defensive purposes.
I certainly believe you when you say it keeps you save against reaper opening. But the reason I don't use it, just as I dont use for example defensive marauders, although I do like to try proxy'ing them, is that I dont think just staying alive is sufficient.
Since I mine only from one geyser my own expansion when going reapers isnt that late. Of course significantly later than a 1-rax FE, but not extreme. The difference between me and an opponent who does something like that would be mainly that I got complete map control and know what the opponent is doing, he doesnt. |
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| Everlong Czech Republic. December 11 2012 21:42. Posts 1368 | Profile # |
On December 11 2012 21:36 VonComet wrote:
I discovered you can do kind of a blind counter to reapers and go for 12gas, 13rax reactor hellions if you do everything right your 2 hellions pop out just as the enemy reaper jumps your cliff and you can proceed to 2 shot him and chase down the next one and you can find yourself in a situation where you have 4 hellions and enemy has at most a marauder and you can kill some scvs or just expand and the game goes on.
This is completly map dependant in my opinion. On certain maps Reaper will be in your base and your hellions will be half way done. This is enough time for the reaper to do serious damage. Not to mention proxy reaper. I don't think it's safe. |
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| avilo United States. December 11 2012 21:45. Posts 3233 | Profile Blog # |
TvT is now ZvZ. You blind guess what your opponent is making much like in ZvZ sometimes there's a guessing game involved with the larva mechanic "did he build drones? or did he build 30 zergling/baneling?"
Now it's, "did he go reaper? did he go anti-reaper with marauder? did he go reaper but play defensive reaper? did he go defensive marauder? do you blind counter all of that and go fast banshee?"
And if they 1 rax expand with no refinfery you just laugh.Last edit: 2012-12-11 21:46:20 |
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| VonComet Slovenia. December 11 2012 21:53. Posts 8 | Profile # |
On December 11 2012 21:42 Everlong wrote:
This is completly map dependant in my opinion. On certain maps Reaper will be in your base and your hellions will be half way done. This is enough time for the reaper to do serious damage. Not to mention proxy reaper. I don't think it's safe.
Well no not really I tested the build extensively and you can pull it off on any map, most of the games were vs gm players too. |
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| Snidgel Sweden. December 11 2012 21:54. Posts 53 | Profile # |
I usualy go 1rax into tank with a bunker on highground to preserve your marines. Thing to be noted though is that I've played very few games of hots (maybe 7-8 TvT's) since I've been lazy. I'm a masters terran and I've noticed that most terrans infact open reaper. Rushing a tank, getting a fast siegemode and expanding behind a 2-3tank/10 marine push you can actually win the game straight from that push.
Depending on how fast he took his CC you can bring 2-3 scvs and build a bunker and you'll defo push his CC up in the base and have a great contain. Once starport is up you should be able to push for the win and if not you'll atleast have a good macro advantage behind it.
But that's just my experience so far, and I do not think I'm playing masters level yet so maybe this aint such a great strategy after all! |
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| Everlong Czech Republic. December 11 2012 21:55. Posts 1368 | Profile # |
On December 11 2012 21:53 VonComet wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 21:42 Everlong wrote:
This is completly map dependant in my opinion. On certain maps Reaper will be in your base and your hellions will be half way done. This is enough time for the reaper to do serious damage. Not to mention proxy reaper. I don't think it's safe.
Well no not really I tested the build extensively and you can pull it off on any map, most of the games were vs gm players too.
Oh wow, really.. Hmm, ok, I'm going to give it a try then. |
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| SSVnormandy France. December 11 2012 22:08. Posts 124 | Profile # |
thanks all. I will definitevely try your fast tank expo.
But at the end you end up with two things :
- the reaper opponent will expand before you
- you have a tech advantage as you just unlocked factory
So the question now is how to take advantage of that prematured unlocked tech to pressure/outmacro your opponent that opened reaper and that is a bit ahead
I like also the fast helion build.I will definitevely try to use it on large maps.
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| | Battlecruisers.... Just Battlecruisers... |
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| Sissors December 11 2012 22:13. Posts 556 | Profile # |
| With the hellion build I am afraid if he walled in his ramp he can hold out quite a while, especially with a reaper defending (he outranges the hellions), and meanwhile if he made a bunch more reapers he can go directly to your base to wreak havoc. With cliff jumping reapers definately have the advantage of choosing the engagement. |
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| Bagi December 11 2012 22:16. Posts 5904 | Profile # |
I just go 1rax expand with defensive marauders + scout reaper.
After that fast mines and a transition into mech. |
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| VonComet Slovenia. December 11 2012 23:24. Posts 8 | Profile # |
On December 11 2012 22:13 Sissors wrote:
With the hellion build I am afraid if he walled in his ramp he can hold out quite a while, especially with a reaper defending (he outranges the hellions), and meanwhile if he made a bunch more reapers he can go directly to your base to wreak havoc. With cliff jumping reapers definately have the advantage of choosing the engagement.
Good observation yea, but it comes down to decision making of both players and the way you decide to progress your bo.
As you say reapers have the advantage of jumping the cliff, but hellions have the advantage of much faster production and a slight edge in speed, if the opponent walls you can still deny the cc for a while, and you can easily take the lowground cc and defend it with additional hellions and a pair of mines (atleast 2 have to be made to defend any banshee followup). Its not a perfect build by any means but it will give you a chance to outplay your opponent unlike the reaper vs reaper coinflip. |
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| Markwerf Netherlands. December 12 2012 00:30. Posts 2833 | Profile # |
I feel it's just best to go reaper yourself now. Most builds that stop 1 rax reaper easily like marauders or fast tank actually expand later than a simple reaper opening. The reaper build also transitions into mech quite well which is by far the best option now while stuff like marauder or multiple rax openings leave you with some subpar units later.
I seriously haven't seen one opening that really counters reapers because simply playing something that defends it tends to be even at best. The reaper player can just make his FE at his natural without having to fly it over and he is pretty much safe from other aggressive options because of the scouting he gets, if you go banshee/drop for example they can easily have some widow mines in time.
I'm not quite sure yet how 1 rax reaper holds up against 2 rax reaper but I don't think it should be too problematic and can probably by dealt with by a bunker. I don't like making more that 1 rax ever in TvT now because mech/air units are so much more effective going into the lategameLast edit: 2012-12-12 00:33:11 |
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