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| AkalineMess December 16 2012 12:34. Posts 135 | Profile # |
Have anyone played Phantom Assassin lately? I played a few games with her and I felt that the hero is indeed powerful.
Changelog:
6.75
Coup de Grace critical strike multiplier increased from 2.5/3.25/4 to 2.5/3.5/4.5.
6.74
Phantom Strike cast range increased from 700/800/900/1000 to 1000.
Phantom Strike cooldown rescaled from 20/15/10/5 to 14/11/8/5.
6.73
Stifling Dagger damage increased from 40/80/120/160 to 50/100/150/200.
6.71
Coup de Grace critical strike rescaled from 2/3/4 to 2.5/3.25/4x.
Reworked Blur fade mechanism :
Blur:
Note: Your hero is no longer always fully faded out. It now only gains partial transparency when the new secondary effect below is active. This still retains the permanent 20/25/30/35% evasion.
Passively blurs your hero when near enemy heroes, causing your model to fade out partially and become hidden on the minimap to enemy player.
Distance: 1600
Has a 1.5 second delay when adding or removing the effect.
6.70
Blur evasion increased from 15/20/25/30% to 20/25/30/35%.
She has been buffed multiple times since 6.70. But the biggest buff/nerf is the PSD (Pseudo Random Distribution). Even though the ultimate states that Coup de Grace is 15% of proccing but PSD system improved the chance of proccing when the ultimate of proccing. So in teamfight situation, she can literally murder support within a couple strike.
Stifling Dagger has a massive 1200 range. That is an equivalent of a Blink Dagger range with a little manacost. This allows PA to last hitting creep during laning phase where she is being pressured by 2 ranged hero. The short cool down on the spell is pretty nice. Along with Phantom Strike (1000 range, 250 range higher than Blink from Rikimaru ), Phantom Assassin is very mobile during teamfight. A maxed out Blur has a 35% chance of evasion allows her to stand toe to toe with other hardcarry.
Let discuss about Phantom Assassin's item progression:
Battle Fury or Not Battle Fury?
Do you rush for Battlefury? Alot of player would say yes, it would allow her to farm faster. But honestly, I think PA can do fine without Battlefury. PA is too squishy early game, she can easily burst down during teamfight as soon as she got disable. However, rushing BKB would be an ideal item build but if the game drags into late game, BKB duration may not be enough for PA to deal her damage because of Ghost Scepter, Forcestaff or Eul. She needs a mid game item that is decent and would not delay BKB too much. I bought Vlad offerings as her second item because it gave armor, damage, a life steal aura. It costs half of the Bfury price and it improves PA's survivability. After that, I would buy BKB.
Anyway, if anyone have been playing PA recently, I need to hear some of your input. |
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 TheYango United States. December 16 2012 14:07. Posts 15733 | Profile # |
PA gets Battle Fury because she's simply not that powerful of a hero before 2nd/3rd major item.
You need a farming item to get to that point in some reasonable span of time. She has no inherent synergy with Radiance, and she desperately needs her orb slot for other orbs so she can't use Mjollnir.
Her skill set is not one that's suited to midgame teamfight-based builds, because she doesn't have some raw form of damage from her skills. Stifling Dagger doesn't do good damage against heroes, and Blink Strike's attack speed buff and her ult crit are still dependent on her having high damage from levels/items. This is unlike other suitable midgame teamfight carries because those carries by and large have skills that give them inherent damage-dealing ability (e.g. Luna's ultimate).Last edit: 2012-12-16 14:10:42 |
| | Tongfu icon until xiao8's back on a ganker role. |
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| bluegarfield December 16 2012 17:42. Posts 132 | Profile # |
in my own little experience i think the item build is very much depending on how early you want to take part in team fight. normally if i aim for late game oriented build with a 4 protect 1 strategy i will just go tread/phase bfr then helm/bkb. this allow me to farm faster on lane and can jungle as well, adding in some kills here and there on nearby lane
else (when i want to take fight much earlier, or having hard time farming) i will go phase and basher then bkb. basher is much cheaper than bfr and add quite nice amount of dmg, some bashing and phase will help chasing also. being cheap + good dmg is a great advantage of basher when you dont have much farm available. bkb is obvious. the attack speed will come from the blink strike. this allow PA to take part in teamfight much earlier and can actually contribute some nice dmg as well, and you can follow up with quick abyssal and you can pretty much pick up solo kill around the map. of course the draw back is lack of regeneration, but you can obtain this through the cheap aquilla ring (which i think a lot of ppl get it) and helm later on.
so far those 2 are my most used builds, but i do try to mix things up depending on situations
Edit:
yes, as DucK- said below, extremely late into the game PA just relies on her crit to proc to be useful as a carry, and even so, opponents will be likely to have ghost staff, cyclone, forcestaff, etc by then. her tanky-ness is greatly reduced due to bkb being 5sec, blur is countered by mkb. also, opponents will likely have enough hp to survive your 1 crit, which means they have more chance to kill you given how squishy you are with only bkb (even with satanic cuz it will be one of the last item you will get)
normally i only get bfr if i get very good farm early on, else i just go straight to basher -> bkb -> helm/abyssal. pretty good and stable buildLast edit: 2012-12-16 20:07:20 |
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| DucK- Singapore. December 16 2012 19:28. Posts 256 | Profile # |
On December 16 2012 14:07 TheYango wrote:
PA gets Battle Fury because she's simply not that powerful of a hero before 2nd/3rd major item.
You need a farming item to get to that point in some reasonable span of time. She has no inherent synergy with Radiance, and she desperately needs her orb slot for other orbs so she can't use Mjollnir.
Her skill set is not one that's suited to midgame teamfight-based builds, because she doesn't have some raw form of damage from her skills. Stifling Dagger doesn't do good damage against heroes, and Blink Strike's attack speed buff and her ult crit are still dependent on her having high damage from levels/items. This is unlike other suitable midgame teamfight carries because those carries by and large have skills that give them inherent damage-dealing ability (e.g. Luna's ultimate).
On the contrary, she is fairly strong in early game skirmishes, provided that there's no big nukes around. You generally don't go in first anyway. You're usually the last to go in, and clearing the team up. Gank wise, PA is a decent ganker with her slow.
I don't like BF on her, because I never liked ricing. Add that PA with early Phase + BKB + misc items is strong enough to participate in fights. She is very very strong in clearing up teams after the initial spells. For that, I don't like getting ricing items on her. If BKB is not a priority, she could always go for Basher/HotD instead.
You must understand that PA is a pretty bad late game carry, because all she contributes is just pure rightclick DPS. A one trick pony. She needs to deal as much damage as possible within the BKB duration. Even then, Ghost/Eul/Force makes it rather easy to kite her. Without the spell immunity, she is easily taken out. Why play towards late game when she's not even fantastic at it? |
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 Kupon3ss United States. December 16 2012 20:14. Posts 2765 | Profile # |
| the important thing about playing PA is that you need to remember to ward your own jungle so you can see all the camps, that way u can blinkstrike between them and farm faster than antimage |
| | This is what people who are too lazy to think of a signature do ~壮哉我大酒神~ | |
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| TheYango United States. December 16 2012 20:33. Posts 15733 | Profile # |
On December 16 2012 20:14 Kupon3ss wrote:
the important thing about playing PA is that you need to remember to ward your own jungle so you can see all the camps, that way u can blinkstrike between them and farm faster than antimage
Nah, you can just get HotD and run the HotD creep between camps to give vision. |
| | Tongfu icon until xiao8's back on a ganker role. |
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| Kupon3ss United States. December 16 2012 20:36. Posts 2765 | Profile # |
| hotd creeps are busy stacking ancients, remember, buy wards to increase farm and shut ur supports up |
| | This is what people who are too lazy to think of a signature do ~壮哉我大酒神~ | |
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| TheYango United States. December 16 2012 20:40. Posts 15733 | Profile # |
On December 16 2012 19:28 DucK- wrote:
On the contrary, she is fairly strong in early game skirmishes, provided that there's no big nukes around. You generally don't go in first anyway. You're usually the last to go in, and clearing the team up. Gank wise, PA is a decent ganker with her slow.
She has no hard disables, no TP interrupts, and fairly low damage unless you get lucky on your 15% crit chance. That altogether makes her a pretty mediocre ganker.
On December 16 2012 19:28 DucK- wrote:
I don't like BF on her, because I never liked ricing. Add that PA with early Phase + BKB + misc items is strong enough to participate in fights. She is very very strong in clearing up teams after the initial spells. For that, I don't like getting ricing items on her. If BKB is not a priority, she could always go for Basher/HotD instead.
1) "don't like ricing" is a personal preference, it doesn't mean that you're playing the hero the best way
2) Phase + BKB on PA is pretty much worse than similar items on more practical midgame teamfight carries because at the point where you only have those items, your 15% chance to crit doesn't outperform their flat damage nukes. You're not playing to the strengths of the hero.
3) "don't get ricing items" "get HotD"? HotD is a farming item. Its full effectiveness is only realized if you make use of the creep to stack camps and farm them. As a pure combat item its a weak choice.
On December 16 2012 19:28 DucK- wrote:
You must understand that PA is a pretty bad late game carry, because all she contributes is just pure rightclick DPS. A one trick pony. She needs to deal as much damage as possible within the BKB duration. Even then, Ghost/Eul/Force makes it rather easy to kite her. Without the spell immunity, she is easily taken out. Why play towards late game when she's not even fantastic at it?
Except, you know, that's kind of what every late game carry in the game does?
On December 16 2012 20:36 Kupon3ss wrote:
hotd creeps are busy stacking ancients, remember, buy wards to increase farm and shut ur supports up
Just make your supports stack ancients.Last edit: 2012-12-16 20:42:49 |
| | Tongfu icon until xiao8's back on a ganker role. |
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| synapse China. December 16 2012 20:45. Posts 6906 | Profile Blog # | |
| | Mmmm butterfly... delicious. |
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| DucK- Singapore. December 17 2012 00:41. Posts 256 | Profile # |
On December 16 2012 20:40 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 19:28 DucK- wrote:
On the contrary, she is fairly strong in early game skirmishes, provided that there's no big nukes around. You generally don't go in first anyway. You're usually the last to go in, and clearing the team up. Gank wise, PA is a decent ganker with her slow.
She has no hard disables, no TP interrupts, and fairly low damage unless you get lucky on your 15% crit chance. That altogether makes her a pretty mediocre ganker.
Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 19:28 DucK- wrote:
I don't like BF on her, because I never liked ricing. Add that PA with early Phase + BKB + misc items is strong enough to participate in fights. She is very very strong in clearing up teams after the initial spells. For that, I don't like getting ricing items on her. If BKB is not a priority, she could always go for Basher/HotD instead.
1) "don't like ricing" is a personal preference, it doesn't mean that you're playing the hero the best way 2) Phase + BKB on PA is pretty much worse than similar items on more practical midgame teamfight carries because at the point where you only have those items, your 15% chance to crit doesn't outperform their flat damage nukes. You're not playing to the strengths of the hero. 3) "don't get ricing items" "get HotD"? HotD is a farming item. Its full effectiveness is only realized if you make use of the creep to stack camps and farm them. As a pure combat item its a weak choice.
Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 19:28 DucK- wrote:
You must understand that PA is a pretty bad late game carry, because all she contributes is just pure rightclick DPS. A one trick pony. She needs to deal as much damage as possible within the BKB duration. Even then, Ghost/Eul/Force makes it rather easy to kite her. Without the spell immunity, she is easily taken out. Why play towards late game when she's not even fantastic at it?
Except, you know, that's kind of what every late game carry in the game does?
Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 20:36 Kupon3ss wrote:
hotd creeps are busy stacking ancients, remember, buy wards to increase farm and shut ur supports up
Just make your supports stack ancients.
Every late game carry? I will conveniently ignore the range carries, because they can easily adjust their positions if things go bad.
AM can easily Blink out if things get tough. FV can TW out (you usually engage with a Chrono, by then your TW CD should be over). Lycan can run away at 522. I don't want to talk about Alche, because of how many people play this hero wrongly. Sven and PA suffers from the same problems. The moment you choose to engage with BKB, it's do or die. You are a one trick pony. All they need is to kite, delay, and minimise losses till your BKB wears out, and that's the end of you. So you need to do all the damage necessary within this BKB window. This is why PA is not a great late game carry.
HotD gives 20 damage and 5 Armour for just 1.8k gold. It's not like you are permanently ganking. You are still a carry, you still need to farm. But you can be fighting early on, and you should be doing it. You should not be perma ricing all the way. Might as well play AM for better results.
You have Blur. You go in after the initial spells to take out the team. BKB is so that you don't get caught by random low CD spells like LSA or Burrowstrike etc. You have Dagger + Blink Strike, + misc damage items. You hurt quite abit in fights, and you are able to actually hit heroes (they don't have mass kiting items, at least on their supports).
Note that BF is not a bad item on her. It's just not playing to her strengths. If your lineup requires you to play passive early on, by all means get BF. But many people are ignoring just how strong she is during early-mid game skirmishes, while severely overrating what she does late game. It also doesn't matter that she has no stuns. Do you gank alone?
*Note that BKB first is usually unnecessary. Probably a Basher/HotD prior to it would be better.*Last edit: 2012-12-17 00:47:46 |
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| Unleashing Denmark. December 17 2012 00:59. Posts 2391 | Profile # |
On December 17 2012 00:41 DucK- wrote:
Note that BF is not a bad item on her. It's just not playing to her strengths. If your lineup requires you to play passive early on, by all means get BF. But many people are ignoring just how strong she is during early-mid game skirmishes, while severely overrating what she does late game. It also doesn't matter that she has no stuns. Do you gank alone?
Lmfao, getting items and farm on PA isn't playing to her strengths? A hero that literally screams LOOK AT MY SCALING WITH ITEMS.
PA is a poor carry, yea, that's why she's rarely ever picked, she has a fuck ton of flaws and fits into very specific line-ups and is outclassed by a lot of other carries. The only thing she has that she does well is having a massive damage output with items. In all other aspects she doesn't do them that well and there are better heroes for the role, generally.
Want a melee mid-game carry with good damage and good gank potential? CK out performs her in every single thinkable way.
Last edit: 2012-12-17 01:02:50 |
| | "Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - KuroKy |
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| DucK- Singapore. December 17 2012 03:49. Posts 256 | Profile # |
On December 17 2012 00:59 Unleashing wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 00:41 DucK- wrote:
Note that BF is not a bad item on her. It's just not playing to her strengths. If your lineup requires you to play passive early on, by all means get BF. But many people are ignoring just how strong she is during early-mid game skirmishes, while severely overrating what she does late game. It also doesn't matter that she has no stuns. Do you gank alone?
Lmfao, getting items and farm on PA isn't playing to her strengths? A hero that literally screams LOOK AT MY SCALING WITH ITEMS. PA is a poor carry, yea, that's why she's rarely ever picked, she has a fuck ton of flaws and fits into very specific line-ups and is outclassed by a lot of other carries. The only thing she has that she does well is having a massive damage output with items. In all other aspects she doesn't do them that well and there are better heroes for the role, generally. Want a melee mid-game carry with good damage and good gank potential? CK out performs her in every single thinkable way.
Getting items that does not allow her to participate earlier in fights (namely BF) isn't playing to her strengths. That said, agree with how she is outclassed by other heroes. |
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| Unleashing Denmark. December 17 2012 03:54. Posts 2391 | Profile # |
On December 17 2012 03:49 DucK- wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 00:59 Unleashing wrote:
On December 17 2012 00:41 DucK- wrote:
Note that BF is not a bad item on her. It's just not playing to her strengths. If your lineup requires you to play passive early on, by all means get BF. But many people are ignoring just how strong she is during early-mid game skirmishes, while severely overrating what she does late game. It also doesn't matter that she has no stuns. Do you gank alone?
Lmfao, getting items and farm on PA isn't playing to her strengths? A hero that literally screams LOOK AT MY SCALING WITH ITEMS. PA is a poor carry, yea, that's why she's rarely ever picked, she has a fuck ton of flaws and fits into very specific line-ups and is outclassed by a lot of other carries. The only thing she has that she does well is having a massive damage output with items. In all other aspects she doesn't do them that well and there are better heroes for the role, generally. Want a melee mid-game carry with good damage and good gank potential? CK out performs her in every single thinkable way.
Getting items that does not allow her to participate earlier in fights (namely BF) isn't playing to her strengths. That said, agree with how she is outclassed by other heroes.
But she doesn't add anything to early fights because her kit isn't built for it, what her kit IS build for is scaling with items and farm.
Why would you build her for early fights. It's like building vanguard/vit booster vlads on anti-mage, sure you can now fight in the mid-game, but that doesn't change how much better he'd be if you let him farm up other items. |
| | "Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - KuroKy |
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| DucK- Singapore. December 17 2012 05:11. Posts 256 | Profile # |
On December 17 2012 03:54 Unleashing wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 03:49 DucK- wrote:
On December 17 2012 00:59 Unleashing wrote:
On December 17 2012 00:41 DucK- wrote:
Note that BF is not a bad item on her. It's just not playing to her strengths. If your lineup requires you to play passive early on, by all means get BF. But many people are ignoring just how strong she is during early-mid game skirmishes, while severely overrating what she does late game. It also doesn't matter that she has no stuns. Do you gank alone?
Lmfao, getting items and farm on PA isn't playing to her strengths? A hero that literally screams LOOK AT MY SCALING WITH ITEMS. PA is a poor carry, yea, that's why she's rarely ever picked, she has a fuck ton of flaws and fits into very specific line-ups and is outclassed by a lot of other carries. The only thing she has that she does well is having a massive damage output with items. In all other aspects she doesn't do them that well and there are better heroes for the role, generally. Want a melee mid-game carry with good damage and good gank potential? CK out performs her in every single thinkable way.
Getting items that does not allow her to participate earlier in fights (namely BF) isn't playing to her strengths. That said, agree with how she is outclassed by other heroes.
But she doesn't add anything to early fights because her kit isn't built for it, what her kit IS build for is scaling with items and farm. Why would you build her for early fights. It's like building vanguard/vit booster vlads on anti-mage, sure you can now fight in the mid-game, but that doesn't change how much better he'd be if you let him farm up other items.
It is indeed like skipping BF and getting Vanguard first on AM. AM utilises BF much better than PA, and his late game is certainly more effective then her (mobility + split pushes). On another hand, PK items are much stronger on PA early on than AM because her skillset makes her a very good chaser. |
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| B1nary Canada. December 17 2012 06:08. Posts 1051 | Profile Blog # |
What items are good on her after BKB and BF? I think someone in the quick questions thread suggested Satanic & Abyssal blade. Doesn't she need some other stuff to increase her attack speed, especially if she wants to take advantage of Abyssal's bash? AC seems like a good choice. Desolator sounds ok, though I don't know if -armor is more important than lifesteal.
As for Mjolnir, can static charge still proc if she evades the attack? Can she still crit if she procs chain lightning?
I wish phantom strike guarantees a crit on the first attack for more reliable damage ^^ |
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| Nevuk United States. December 17 2012 06:10. Posts 4144 | Profile Blog # |
On December 17 2012 03:54 Unleashing wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 03:49 DucK- wrote:
On December 17 2012 00:59 Unleashing wrote:
On December 17 2012 00:41 DucK- wrote:
Note that BF is not a bad item on her. It's just not playing to her strengths. If your lineup requires you to play passive early on, by all means get BF. But many people are ignoring just how strong she is during early-mid game skirmishes, while severely overrating what she does late game. It also doesn't matter that she has no stuns. Do you gank alone?
Lmfao, getting items and farm on PA isn't playing to her strengths? A hero that literally screams LOOK AT MY SCALING WITH ITEMS. PA is a poor carry, yea, that's why she's rarely ever picked, she has a fuck ton of flaws and fits into very specific line-ups and is outclassed by a lot of other carries. The only thing she has that she does well is having a massive damage output with items. In all other aspects she doesn't do them that well and there are better heroes for the role, generally. Want a melee mid-game carry with good damage and good gank potential? CK out performs her in every single thinkable way.
Getting items that does not allow her to participate earlier in fights (namely BF) isn't playing to her strengths. That said, agree with how she is outclassed by other heroes.
But she doesn't add anything to early fights because her kit isn't built for it, what her kit IS build for is scaling with items and farm. Why would you build her for early fights. It's like building vanguard/vit booster vlads on anti-mage, sure you can now fight in the mid-game, but that doesn't change how much better he'd be if you let him farm up other items.
Sometimes building vanguard vlad's is the right decision on AM. Sure he might be a stronger hero after an early battlefury but if you've been raxed in the time it takes to get the battlefury it probably wasn't the best call.
edit -
AC is fine on her if you really want, Deso is not particularly good, lifesteal far far more important to PA. MKB vs other agility heroes who are getting bfly. Last edit: 2012-12-17 06:11:44 |
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| canikizu December 17 2012 06:20. Posts 2024 | Profile # | |
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| Yacobs United States. December 17 2012 06:33. Posts 356 | Profile # |
| It just depends on the game. Sometimes BF is clearly the best move. Other times, Phase + Drum + HotD is all you need to start participating in ganks and teamfights. I can't believe that some of the more prolific Dota2 posters here are claiming that BF is the correct item 100% of the time. Last edit: 2012-12-17 06:35:49 |
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| TheYango United States. December 17 2012 06:39. Posts 15733 | Profile # |
On December 17 2012 06:33 Yacobs wrote:
It just depends on the game. Sometimes BF is clearly the best move. Other times, Phase + Drum + HotD is all you need to start participating in ganks and teamfights. I can't believe that some of the more prolific Dota2 posters here are claiming that BF is the correct item 100% of the time.
Of course every item choice in the game is situational. Nobody is saying BF is correct 100% of the time. But you don't go into a game planning around not being able to get BF, because you'd much rather have a BF when you can afford to use it. The hero isn't suited to midgame teamfighting, and you only opt for such builds when either teamcomps or poor early game development backs you into a corner where you have to. Certainly "I don't like ricing" isn't a reason not to buy BFury in situations where it's the correct choice. If you don't like ricing, then why the hell are you even playing PA?
With regard to your orb slot--a large percentage of the time, Diffusal is actually going to be a good orb choice (and one people forget about) because people plan around buying Ghost Scepter against PA. Last edit: 2012-12-17 06:45:11 |
| | Tongfu icon until xiao8's back on a ganker role. |
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| Unleashing Denmark. December 17 2012 06:41. Posts 2391 | Profile # |
On December 17 2012 06:10 Nevuk wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 03:54 Unleashing wrote:
On December 17 2012 03:49 DucK- wrote:
On December 17 2012 00:59 Unleashing wrote:
On December 17 2012 00:41 DucK- wrote:
Note that BF is not a bad item on her. It's just not playing to her strengths. If your lineup requires you to play passive early on, by all means get BF. But many people are ignoring just how strong she is during early-mid game skirmishes, while severely overrating what she does late game. It also doesn't matter that she has no stuns. Do you gank alone?
Lmfao, getting items and farm on PA isn't playing to her strengths? A hero that literally screams LOOK AT MY SCALING WITH ITEMS. PA is a poor carry, yea, that's why she's rarely ever picked, she has a fuck ton of flaws and fits into very specific line-ups and is outclassed by a lot of other carries. The only thing she has that she does well is having a massive damage output with items. In all other aspects she doesn't do them that well and there are better heroes for the role, generally. Want a melee mid-game carry with good damage and good gank potential? CK out performs her in every single thinkable way.
Getting items that does not allow her to participate earlier in fights (namely BF) isn't playing to her strengths. That said, agree with how she is outclassed by other heroes.
But she doesn't add anything to early fights because her kit isn't built for it, what her kit IS build for is scaling with items and farm. Why would you build her for early fights. It's like building vanguard/vit booster vlads on anti-mage, sure you can now fight in the mid-game, but that doesn't change how much better he'd be if you let him farm up other items.
Sometimes building vanguard vlad's is the right decision on AM. Sure he might be a stronger hero after an early battlefury but if you've been raxed in the time it takes to get the battlefury it probably wasn't the best call. edit - AC is fine on her if you really want, Deso is not particularly good, lifesteal far far more important to PA. MKB vs other agility heroes who are getting bfly.
If you NEED vanguard/vlads on AM, you picked the wrong hero for your line-up, simple as that.
His synergy with the item is pretty fucking good, and there are just heroes that would be ten times better to pick, but yes, sometimes you need to do it, but then to me, AM was the wrong hero to pick, because his team-fight contribution in the early to mid-game is not that good without items.Last edit: 2012-12-17 06:43:25 |
| | "Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - KuroKy |
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