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[Guide] TLyN's Guide to Undying the Almighty Dirge

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy 1 2 All
 
 Daedalus SEA   December 16 2012 18:32. Posts 50
Profile # 
TLyN’s Guide to Undying

Undying the Almighty Dirge


[image loading]


Introduction

Another corpse... on the battlefield.

Undying is a very versatile melee hero who functions mainly as a tank, pusher and initiator. He can however, support his team or even semi-carry in certain situations. He is NOT a carry because his skills don’t scale as well as other carries into the late game. He is by far my favourite hero. What I find retarded(and good) is that Undying’s base Intelligence is MUCH HIGHER than his base strength. His strength gain is only 0.1 higher than his intelligence gain meaning he functions a lot like a durable intelligence hero and at level 25 his strength is only a mere 2.5 higher than his intelligence(Smart zombies!). He is a beast that rips apart heroes like Broodmother but care must be taken against heroes like Earthshaker. My guide will cover skill builds, item builds, laning, reasoning behind them and what to do in each stage of the game.

Stats

My tomb is sundered.

+ Show Spoiler +

Skill Build

All will die.

+ Show Spoiler +


Item Builds (ALWAYS CARRY A TP SCROLL UNTIL YOU GET YOUR BOOTS OF TRAVEL)

Bury it with me.

+ Show Spoiler +

Early Game (Which lane do I pick?)

First blood! They sing the song of death!!

+ Show Spoiler +

Mid-Late Game

Dead grow stronger.

+ Show Spoiler +

Conclusion

Blight will spread. More will join.

I hope my guide has helped you all. It is pretty long winded but bear with me as it is after all my first guide. If you did everything right you should get messages like these.
+ Show Spoiler +

Feedback is appreciated! Thanks and go pwn some noobs with Undying already!

Last edit: 2013-01-30 14:26:36
Old Post

 
 DucK-   Singapore. December 16 2012 19:31. Posts 259
Profile # 
You generally do not want your Ulti at 6, because you usually shouldn't have the mana to support it. It's quite common to get it at 8 instead.
Old Post

 
 Daedalus SEA   December 16 2012 19:40. Posts 50
Profile # 

On December 16 2012 19:31 DucK- wrote:
You generally do not want your Ulti at 6, because you usually shouldn't have the mana to support it. It's quite common to get it at 8 instead.


That is true in a certain way. However you should almost definitely have your Arcane Boots by then which solves your early-mid game mana issue. Not to mention at Level 6 Undying himself without Mana boosting items has 481 mana in his mana pool. At 100 mana as well as being non spammable, Flesh Golem is fine being obtained at Level 6. Since your Decay is 70 manacost, and Tombstone is 130 and Soul Rip is 75 you have plenty of mana to use one of each and still be able to spam an extra Decay. You could of course delay it and get it at 8, instead opting to max out Tombstone first but I much prefer Flesh Golem first since Tombstone isn't used tons in the early game. Flesh Golem helps when your middle teammate ganks early.
Last edit: 2012-12-16 19:54:29
Old Post

 
 Firebolt145   United Kingdom. December 16 2012 21:25. Posts 12320
Profile # 
A lot of people that look for guides on heroes need some spoonfeeding on exactly what skill build to follow. You really should include a very basic cookie cutter skill build. Basically something like:
+ Show Spoiler +

I also feel that the max Decay + max Tombstone before getting any points in Soul Rip. The reason max Decay is so strong is because of the decreased cooldown to only 4 seconds. It's obviously situational though; if you're in a lane where you or your lane partner are taking heavy harass it can be important to get a point of Soul Rip early.

Regarding items, I firstly feel that saying '1 Flying Courier (DO THIS ONLY IF YOU BOUGHT THE COURIER IN THE FIRST PLACE. IF NOT, LET YOUR SUPPORT BUY IT.)' is incredibly wrong. There is no rule that no one else on the team should upgrade the courier except the 5th position support. I in fact almost always upgrade it if I'm the one who gets first blood gold, irregardless of what position I am (except 1st carry).

Also I'm not sure about putting a straightforward Arcane boots -> Bloodstone -> Boots of Travels is a good idea at all. This item build is excellent if you're doing extremely well, but if you're not doing extremely well or you're forced to be a support Undying, this build is very poor. You should offer an alternative build for people to follow when they aren't able to be a 2nd or 3rd position Undying or the game is simply not going too well.

Having Vanguard in your suggested item list is just such a big no-no to me. It's just such a horrible item now in terms of cost-efficiency. Getting a naked vitality booster is pretty much just as good, and you can upgrade that to a Heart later if needed.

Why do you include Refresher Orb in your suggested item list if you're just going to say 'Not worth getting.' straight after that?

You also may want to mention that Tombstone destroys all trees around it so you can't exactly just hide it in them. You can also use it to create little shortcuts through the forest though! ^_^

In teamfights, you really should emphasise the importance of using Soul Rip as a heal for teammates. That's a pretty big deal.

Anyway, in general it's a decently good guide since it covers a good deal of Undying. My post may seem a little negative but that's because I just went through it to pull out everything I think that could be improved.

Adding it to the guide index ~
@Firebolt145 | Dota 2 stream yayayay www.twitch.tv/firebolt145
Old Post

 
 Daedalus SEA   December 16 2012 23:06. Posts 50
Profile # 

On December 16 2012 21:25 Firebolt145 wrote:
A lot of people that look for guides on heroes need some spoonfeeding on exactly what skill build to follow. You really should include a very basic cookie cutter skill build. Basically something like:
+ Show Spoiler +

I also feel that the max Decay + max Tombstone before getting any points in Soul Rip. The reason max Decay is so strong is because of the decreased cooldown to only 4 seconds. It's obviously situational though; if you're in a lane where you or your lane partner are taking heavy harass it can be important to get a point of Soul Rip early.

Regarding items, I firstly feel that saying '1 Flying Courier (DO THIS ONLY IF YOU BOUGHT THE COURIER IN THE FIRST PLACE. IF NOT, LET YOUR SUPPORT BUY IT.)' is incredibly wrong. There is no rule that no one else on the team should upgrade the courier except the 5th position support. I in fact almost always upgrade it if I'm the one who gets first blood gold, irregardless of what position I am (except 1st carry).

Also I'm not sure about putting a straightforward Arcane boots -> Bloodstone -> Boots of Travels is a good idea at all. This item build is excellent if you're doing extremely well, but if you're not doing extremely well or you're forced to be a support Undying, this build is very poor. You should offer an alternative build for people to follow when they aren't able to be a 2nd or 3rd position Undying or the game is simply not going too well.

Having Vanguard in your suggested item list is just such a big no-no to me. It's just such a horrible item now in terms of cost-efficiency. Getting a naked vitality booster is pretty much just as good, and you can upgrade that to a Heart later if needed.

Why do you include Refresher Orb in your suggested item list if you're just going to say 'Not worth getting.' straight after that?

You also may want to mention that Tombstone destroys all trees around it so you can't exactly just hide it in them. You can also use it to create little shortcuts through the forest though! ^_^

In teamfights, you really should emphasise the importance of using Soul Rip as a heal for teammates. That's a pretty big deal.

Anyway, in general it's a decently good guide since it covers a good deal of Undying. My post may seem a little negative but that's because I just went through it to pull out everything I think that could be improved.

Adding it to the guide index ~


Thanks for the feedback man. Yeah I do agree it is a fairly straight build which may not fit in certain situations.
Hm I sorta agree with your Flying Courier bit. I haven't always been a very dominant player so I usually listen to what my buddies tell me and I usually buy the flying courier if I bought the courier initially.
I will update the guide whenever I can with better build orders.
Yeah I usually don't use Vanguard 90% of the time but my buddies insist that Vanguard is way better than Bloodstone(Dunno why).
The Refresher Orb bit is a troll.
Yeah thanks for mentioning the Tombstone bit! I need to add an extra bit on placement of it. There are cool places to put it like on the cliff where no one will see it near Roshan. I probably should also have mentioned that dropping it can save a teammates life from chasing enemy heroes.
I did emphasise importance of using Soul Rip as a heal. It is much better to reserve it for heals than nuking. I only use it to nuke in desperation(Example: People running away with very low HP and Decay is on cooldown)
Thanks again man! ^^
Old Post

 
 Firebolt145   United Kingdom. December 16 2012 23:07. Posts 12320
Profile # 

Yeah I usually don't use Vanguard 90% of the time but my buddies insist that Vanguard is way better than Bloodstone(Dunno why).

Your friends are very wrong there, vanguard is right next to rod of atos as 'worst items in the game atm'.
@Firebolt145 | Dota 2 stream yayayay www.twitch.tv/firebolt145
Old Post

 
 DucK-   Singapore. December 17 2012 00:20. Posts 259
Profile # 
Bloodstone is so awesome on Dirge. I'm fine with Ulti at 6, but it's usually much better to get it at 8. There's really not much need for it because you shouldn't have clashes at that time. Really dependent on the game. I prefer Decay Rip Rip Tomb Tomb Tomb Tomb Ulti. That's my usualy skill build, maxing Decay first before Rip.
Old Post

 
 Vertical   Indonesia. December 17 2012 01:08. Posts 963
Profile # 
is aganim bad for him ?
i always go aghanim 1st with him and still own
what should be his 1st item ?
considering bloodstone is only for best best best scenario
-Terran-
Old Post

 
 Daedalus SEA   December 17 2012 01:47. Posts 50
Profile # 

On December 17 2012 01:08 Vertical wrote:
is aganim bad for him ?
i always go aghanim 1st with him and still own
what should be his 1st item ?
considering bloodstone is only for best best best scenario


Well assuming you already have your Arcane Boots and whatnot, I would usually recommend an item that generally makes him tankier and increases his regen a bit. You don't really need to focus on damage items for Undying because your presence in teamfights is good enough. You want to last longer and help your team as much as possible. To do this you need to spam your skills and have items that benefit your team. It depends on the flow of the game. Aghanim's first is alright but I wouldn't recommend it because there are better ways for you to help your team and yourself own. You can get items such as:

Pipe of Insight first if you facing a ton of spellcasters. It helps a lot more than Aghanim's does in certain scenarios.
Mekansm works too but its better off on another support like Vengeful Spirit so you can get the Pipe.
Getting Vladimir's Offering first isn't too bad as it gives you decent regeneration and lifesteal but usually you don't need it early on. You can upgrade it much later from your Ring of Basillius.
Drums of Endurance are also a decent choice if your team doesn't already have one. Increases movement speed and attack speed as well as +9 to all stats makes it almost as good as Aghanim's without the Ultimate upgrade.
As what Firebolt145 said, a naked Vitality Booster also can be a good choice to tank up. Or opt for a Perseverance. You can always delay your Bloodstone.

All in all there are many "1st items" for Undying. It all depends on the pace of the game.
Last edit: 2012-12-17 01:48:51
Old Post

 
 KurtistheTurtle   United States. December 17 2012 03:50. Posts 1786
Profile Blog # 
nice guide. I'm gonna hop in here because I've been playing him a bit recently


On December 16 2012 21:25 Firebolt145 wrote:

I also feel that the max Decay + max Tombstone before getting any points in Soul Rip. The reason max Decay is so strong is because of the decreased cooldown to only 4 seconds. It's obviously situational though; if you're in a lane where you or your lane partner are taking heavy harass it can be important to get a point of Soul Rip early.


Two levels in soul rip = 10x units nearby, which is the max you're gonna get in a laning-phase fight. That's a 250 damage nuke or heal for 75 mana, at level 3. That's HUGE! too good to pass up for staying power and/or nuking power.

secondly, early on undying's mana pool can't sustain higher levels of decay + tombstone + soul rip + possibly ult. even with arcane boots, he just can't do it, so maxing out decay quickly is unfeasible where the soul rip is extremely mana effective at that point in the game

third, tombstone should generally be maxed out before his ult. at max tombstone, zombies spawn in 1300 aoe, which is the best countergank there is, and this doesn't exacerbate the mana problem. depending on your laning, getting his ult at 6 could sometimes be good. here's how you know: at level 1 the damage amplify is 20% when you're right next to them. if 20% of their max life was missing and you could nuke them down quickly, but only with the ult, then its worth skilling.

ex: you're laning with lion against a high str char (centaur), calculate the damage you'll do by subtracting 20% of centaur's max life. if a lion stun/finger + your decay/soulrip/right click can burst him down, its worth it. otherwise, if you're not gonna get the kill, its better to level tombstone for mana management/antigank
you've been dead since the moment you were born.
Old Post

 
 Stratos.FEAR   Canada. December 17 2012 09:35. Posts 688
Profile # 
guide is legit, turned the tides of a very close game using this strat
Old Post

 
 Erasme   France. December 17 2012 09:49. Posts 4061
Profile Blog # 

On December 16 2012 23:07 Firebolt145 wrote:

Show nested quote +


Your friends are very wrong there, vanguard is right next to rod of atos as 'worst items in the game atm'.

rod is so underestimed ..
undying is a baller, really fucking hard to kill. I would too delay your ultimate til level 8 for tombstone, it's such an amazing skill
'Reading all your blogs make me feel warm inside, it's like I know you already and I hope you would like to know me too'
Old Post

 
 Cyx.   Canada. December 17 2012 11:11. Posts 293
Profile # 

On December 17 2012 09:49 Erasme wrote:

Show nested quote +


rod is so underestimed ..
undying is a baller, really fucking hard to kill. I would too delay your ultimate til level 8 for tombstone, it's such an amazing skill

Rod of atos is super underrated - it's one of my first items on OD every time I play him and I consider it on most other int heroes at some point. Obviously for most supports it's a bit of a luxury but a lot of 3rd positions, especially ones who like to build mek, or even 2nd positions can use it - it's a pretty good slow for a hero with no or few built-in disables, and it gives a lot of mana, damage and health on int heroes.

Atos on a sidelane windrunner is pretty awesome too after force - in the case that you don't feel like going sheep (not having a great game, your mid already has one and you don't really need two) or mek (your 4th position is buying it), the health is always nice on pretty much anyone and the extra int + cc which can be used to position shackles pretty nicely works great for her. There are a few other heroes I like buying it on but it's pretty situational for most of them.

Not to derail the post by talking about atos too much though. I do really love the bloodstone build but I agree with what most people are saying - you maybe shouldn't present it as your go-to build considering against anyone who's harassing you or shutting you down well in the sidelane, you're not going to get the farm and kills required for bloodstone to really have its effect. If you're playing support undying you'll never be able to afford a bloodstone either - I'd only really think bloodstone is the best item to get if you're a mid or a safelane farmer, where you're more likely to have uninterrupted farm. Bloodstone's a really expensive midgame item.

Guide would be a bit nicer if there were a more detailed section on the support undying in there too - he's really strong as a trilane support or as a dual-lane support with a ranged carry (and even some melee carries).

Otherwise, a pretty sick guide overall, I learned a couple things about undying from it so that's always nice =)
Old Post

 
 PinkEmu   Australia. December 17 2012 14:29. Posts 11
Profile # 
Not a fan of this guide. Although i could say that about most guides on heroes that i have extensively researched. Who is going to make a guide that covers loads of situations, covers all items of use to the hero and explains when and when not to get etc etc? Maybe i just don't like is that you're talking up Bloodstone and Boots of Travel is amazing items for Undying when they really don't actually come into play when Undying should normally dominate.

What i can say though, is the skill build is very good. So many people look at Decays face value and just get moist. Putting more than 1 level in it (Right away) is HIGHLY situation.

And if people get past decay they see soul rip and get moist again, when really you often won't have enough units in area to take advantage of its higher level. Leaving tombstone to be maxed first. Again though, that's situational, albeit the most common i would say.

What you've done mathematically does the most damage and really uses Undying strong hitting power at levels 3-5 and keeps his mana issues in check even without an arcane boots.

Even pros i see play Undying "Incorrectly" in terms of skill build.

Good to see people putting time and effort into making guides on TL though
Last edit: 2012-12-17 14:36:37
Old Post

 
 Daedalus SEA   December 17 2012 15:02. Posts 50
Profile # 

On December 17 2012 09:35 Stratos.FEAR wrote:
guide is legit, turned the tides of a very close game using this strat


Glad it turned out for you!


On December 17 2012 11:11 Cyx. wrote:

Show nested quote +


Rod of atos is super underrated - it's one of my first items on OD every time I play him and I consider it on most other int heroes at some point. Obviously for most supports it's a bit of a luxury but a lot of 3rd positions, especially ones who like to build mek, or even 2nd positions can use it - it's a pretty good slow for a hero with no or few built-in disables, and it gives a lot of mana, damage and health on int heroes.

Atos on a sidelane windrunner is pretty awesome too after force - in the case that you don't feel like going sheep (not having a great game, your mid already has one and you don't really need two) or mek (your 4th position is buying it), the health is always nice on pretty much anyone and the extra int + cc which can be used to position shackles pretty nicely works great for her. There are a few other heroes I like buying it on but it's pretty situational for most of them.

Not to derail the post by talking about atos too much though. I do really love the bloodstone build but I agree with what most people are saying - you maybe shouldn't present it as your go-to build considering against anyone who's harassing you or shutting you down well in the sidelane, you're not going to get the farm and kills required for bloodstone to really have its effect. If you're playing support undying you'll never be able to afford a bloodstone either - I'd only really think bloodstone is the best item to get if you're a mid or a safelane farmer, where you're more likely to have uninterrupted farm. Bloodstone's a really expensive midgame item.

Guide would be a bit nicer if there were a more detailed section on the support undying in there too - he's really strong as a trilane support or as a dual-lane support with a ranged carry (and even some melee carries).

Otherwise, a pretty sick guide overall, I learned a couple things about undying from it so that's always nice =)


Thanks for your reply! I will update more on a Support based Undying soon!


On December 17 2012 14:29 PinkEmu wrote:
Not a fan of this guide. Although i could say that about most guides on heroes that i have extensively researched. Who is going to make a guide that covers loads of situations, covers all items of use to the hero and explains when and when not to get etc etc? Maybe i just don't like is that you're talking up Bloodstone and Boots of Travel is amazing items for Undying when they really don't actually come into play when Undying should normally dominate.

What i can say though, is the skill build is very good. So many people look at Decays face value and just get moist. Putting more than 1 level in it (Right away) is HIGHLY situation.

And if people get past decay they see soul rip and get moist again, when really you often won't have enough units in area to take advantage of its higher level. Leaving tombstone to be maxed first. Again though, that's situational, albeit the most common i would say.

What you've done mathematically does the most damage and really uses Undying strong hitting power at levels 3-5 and keeps his mana issues in check even without an arcane boots.

Even pros i see play Undying "Incorrectly" in terms of skill build.

Good to see people putting time and effort into making guides on TL though


Thanks for your feedback man! Yeah the item build is kinda strict and can be hard to build to but they do pretty well for Undying I feel. And about the pros....last night Sing Sing played Undying and literally DIDN'T get any points in Tombstone and said that Undying starts off good then drops to an all low very quickly. This isn't very true because of Tombstone being able to dominate for a long time. However he may just have been trolling since his item builds were very strange and he usually trolls pubs.
Old Post

 
 Meta   United States. December 17 2012 15:38. Posts 5802
Profile Blog # 
I love this hero, I usually get tombstone at level 1 though. Generally the spell you get at level 1 doesn't matter because you don't want to start using your mana that early, but if you really need to use a spell (defensively or whatever), you want to use tombstone. It's just so, so good at level 1.
Pure, immaculate, clean, omnicidal god machine
Old Post

 
 PinkEmu   Australia. December 17 2012 15:48. Posts 11
Profile # 
@ OP

Yea i was watching Sing Sing play Undying as well. And he openly said that his build was horrible. Both items and skills.
Old Post

 
 Mithhaike   Singapore. December 17 2012 18:09. Posts 771
Profile Blog # 
I love the Undying too. What i want to say is tombstone 1st skill is actually good & legit.

Why? Zombies slow.

If your lane has a slow/stun ally,its a guaranteed first blood ALWAYS. For my undying i play it as a support Roamer. I go gank whenever tombstone is off cooldown just because of how amazing it is.
My build is as follows:-

1) Tombstone
2) Decay
3) Tombstone
4) Soulrip
5) Tombstone
6) Soulrip
7) Tombstone

Then i max out decay after the 2 points in soulrip.

some examples of this undying.
Match 50890510
Match 68488686
Match 51594953

I apologize for the older replays. Been quite some time since i used Undying. Please do take a look and see how the 1st point Tombstone is just amazing.
Due to the fact that xy will be in Japan on a holiday with his family, we have no plans as all hopes are lost. You can’t morph without having 5 power rangers.. - iceiceice on their chances of winning IG
Old Post

 
 Laserist   Turkey. December 17 2012 19:07. Posts 412
Profile # 
Undying is not about farming items and using them. Game sense & knowing the abilities of this hero is the key. This is why undying is so potent and banned occasionally.
Other than that, I prefer stat items over bloodstone generally. Don't listen others, Undying performs better if he stays in fights. After arcane boots, I prefer vanguard & pipe sometimes and decay their ass of. If you can land a few good decay. IT is normal to gain 30+ str in a fight. Enemy thinks you have no hp but instead with %30 hp pool, you are already stronger than them.
9 January test client update: Bots are now less likely to assume that humans will purchase wards.
Old Post

 
 Daedalus SEA   December 17 2012 19:13. Posts 50
Profile # 

On December 17 2012 15:38 Meta wrote:
I love this hero, I usually get tombstone at level 1 though. Generally the spell you get at level 1 doesn't matter because you don't want to start using your mana that early, but if you really need to use a spell (defensively or whatever), you want to use tombstone. It's just so, so good at level 1.


It can be viable but Decay is fine being spammed early on because of its relatively low manacost and cooldown. Undying's high Intelligence and Intelligence gain also are good for this in particular. Tombstone first I feel doesn't provide a lot since its AOE is quite small and enemies can escape it if you lack proper support from a stunner or so.


On December 17 2012 19:07 Laserist wrote:
Undying is not about farming items and using them. Game sense & knowing the abilities of this hero is the key. This is why undying is so potent and banned occasionally.
Other than that, I prefer stat items over bloodstone generally. Don't listen others, Undying performs better if he stays in fights. After arcane boots, I prefer vanguard & pipe sometimes and decay their ass of. If you can land a few good decay. IT is normal to gain 30+ str in a fight. Enemy thinks you have no hp but instead with %30 hp pool, you are already stronger than them.


He isn't. I never said he was. Undying is good enough by himself with very little farm. You won't be farming creeps much as you will be giving the majority to your carry or so. You gain gold mainly from teamfights and waiting. It is quite common for the game to be over before I can get items besides my Bloodstone or Pipe or whatnot.


On December 17 2012 18:09 Mithhaike wrote:
I love the Undying too. What i want to say is tombstone 1st skill is actually good & legit.

Why? Zombies slow.

If your lane has a slow/stun ally,its a guaranteed first blood ALWAYS. For my undying i play it as a support Roamer. I go gank whenever tombstone is off cooldown just because of how amazing it is.
My build is as follows:-

1) Tombstone
2) Decay
3) Tombstone
4) Soulrip
5) Tombstone
6) Soulrip
7) Tombstone

Then i max out decay after the 2 points in soulrip.

some examples of this undying.
Match 50890510
Match 68488686
Match 51594953

I apologize for the older replays. Been quite some time since i used Undying. Please do take a look and see how the 1st point Tombstone is just amazing.


Hm looks interesting. I will look into it a little more. Come to think of it, any lane partner with a reliable stun/very good slow is usually an easy first blood for Undying regardless of build. Thanks for your time in giving me the Match IDs! ^^
Last edit: 2012-12-17 19:19:59
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