| Qgelfich Germany. December 17 2012 23:57. Posts 85 | Profile # |
Hey there, if found that all my ZvZ's in HotS lately have only been a clash of muta vs muta.
Has anyone had serious success defending mutas in hots? My main issue is that mutas are way better vs fungal now and the usual anti muta-ling army of well upgraded roach hydra infestor sucks vs swarmhosts so there is no way to really move out or stop the transition.
I tried upgraded lings for counterattacks coupled with defensive infestors against that style as well. My plan was to rely on zerglings to give me some kind of mapcontroll coupled with defensive infestors against mutas.
As soon as they techswiched to swarmhosts my strat was to roll over the locust wave with speedbanes and then kill all hosts with one big blow. Still, the lacking economy and mobility of infestors as well as the one big allin move of using all my banelings to kill the SH seems a bit overly risky to be viable.
I can play muta ling myself but i really dislike the style muta vs muta and the idea to be forced into one techpath/style on every map.
Edit: Sorry for the stupid stuff, a friend of mine decided to be a retard on my computer.Last edit: 2012-12-18 00:04:40 |
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| Peebrain Sweden. December 17 2012 23:59. Posts 9 | Profile # |
"My plan was to rely penis on zerglings to give me some kind of mapcontroll coupled with defensive infestors against mutas."
You want to rely penis? 
To answer your question, its very hard, timing with speed hydra ling and a few blings can work been fairly successful with it |
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| Qgelfich Germany. December 18 2012 00:14. Posts 85 | Profile # |
To answer your question, its very hard, timing with speed hydra ling and a few blings can work been fairly successful with it
That kind of timing dies to either mutas or banelings because hydras are not that good vs mutas in low numbers and if you overinvest into hydras you are incredibly vulnerable vs banelings. If he swiches to roaches in time ure totally fucked. |
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| Novacute Australia. December 18 2012 00:25. Posts 256 | Profile # |
| I also have the same problem. As zerglings and banes are faster/almost as fast as hydras and are far more cost efficient in open spaces, going hydras is a problem when you want to be offensive since lings can easily surround and wipe them out. The issue right now is that mutas are alot more cost effective against queens and spores as well, since a typical 12 min muta timing with simple pull away micro can wreck spores and queens unless the players also build mutas to punish damaged ones. Also opening air amour +1 would just turn into a forever muta vs muta war in some random open space since glaives would be even more ineffective. I think this hp buff will need to be made into a cheap upgrade to prevent muta vs muta from being the only viable build order. Also, the new infestor is grossly underpowered in defending vs mutas because of the increased speed, projectile animation and regen which would just reduce the overall effectiveness of fungal. |
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| Harbinger631 United States. December 18 2012 00:26. Posts 375 | Profile # |
| I wonder if it would work to put a few overlords near your future third and pre-make extra spores. As soon as the lair finishes, drop creep and plant your spores so you don't have to want for your third to finish. Then tech to infestors. |
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| Tuczniak Czech Republic. December 18 2012 00:30. Posts 967 | Profile # |
On December 18 2012 00:25 Novacute wrote:
I also have the same problem. As zerglings and banes are faster/almost as fast as hydras and are far more cost efficient in open spaces, going hydras is a problem when you want to be offensive since lings can easily surround and wipe them out. The issue right now is that mutas are alot more cost effective against queens and spores as well, since a typical 12 min muta timing with simple pull away micro can wreck spores and queens unless the players also build mutas to punish damaged ones. Also opening air amour +1 would just turn into a forever muta vs muta war in some random open space since glaives would be even more ineffective. I think this hp buff will need to be made into a cheap upgrade to prevent muta vs muta from being the only viable build order. Also, the new infestor is grossly underpowered in defending vs mutas because of the increased speed, projectile animation and regen which would just reduce the overall effectiveness of fungal.
I don't think HP regen is the problem. Just because infestors are very bad, the only good reaction to mutas is more mutas.
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| Qgelfich Germany. December 18 2012 00:36. Posts 85 | Profile # |
I wonder if it would work to put a few overlords near your future third and pre-make extra spores. As soon as the lair finishes, drop creep and plant your spores so you don't have to want for your third to finish. Then tech to infestors.
I dont have problems getting my third. By the time mutas hit me im able to have my third up and spored up. I have problems moving out / keeping my opponent at bay. Otherwise he can drone as crazy and therefore outexpand/outtech me.
The issue remains, the mobility of the harraz and the newfound combat efficiency. Muta used to be viable as nice midgame harraz option and sometimes you could even suprisingly commit to them to kill someone in WoL. In other words, they were viable before the infestor nerf. Now that fungal is a projektile and IT's dont scale anymore... Mutas have become a serious issue/ the go to strat. This changes a once nice and skill/macrocentric matchup into an air clusterfuck where noone knows if hes winning or not. |
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| Pogomais Mexico. December 18 2012 01:22. Posts 48 | Profile # |
| Now everyone go blind mutas in ZvZ, like 3 evo chamber for wall then go fast mutas, as I hate going for the same build in ZvZ, I start now everytime making 8-10 Hydras 4-5 queens spores Nydus, you wait at your base for mutas, then take 1 or 2 fights to down the muta count, then counter with more spores and proxy Nydus, if your queens are well placed and your hydras well splitted its pretty easy to win. But maybe Blizz should boost Hydras Hp, just 10 more and this will be pretty balance as Hydras sucks Vs Bio terran Vs Banes Vs Coloss/HT Last edit: 2012-12-18 01:26:29 |
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| Tif Germany. December 18 2012 04:02. Posts 15 | Profile # |
I also think that Muta is the most valuable choice in zvz right now Because Fungle are realy hard to execute since the projectils can be dodges. Hydralisk alone are just not coast efficient or mobile enaough. I´m also think that a good suround with ling/speed bling/muta could defeat a roach/hydra/infestor arme, if you have a good spread on your mutas, and manage to conect a few blings to the Hydra. Nydusworm wont work against a good player because of the leaking map control.
At the moment Mutas are just more coast eficient and easyer to execute than the other arme compositions. And i realy hope that Bliz. will change something about that because Muta vs Muta battles are just stupid and boring.
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| Piousflea United States. December 18 2012 04:30. Posts 239 | Profile # |
| They should just give Hydras the same +HP Regen as Mutas have right now. They'd still melt instantly against lings, but at least they'd be able to shoot down Mutas. |
| | Seek, behold, and reveal the truth |
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| sagefreke United States. December 18 2012 04:53. Posts 191 | Profile # |
I'm only diamond in HotS (masters in WoL) since I haven't played that many games but I have been very successful against Muta openings with a 1-1 roach hydra timing attack. Note that this timing attack only works if you know your opponent is going for Mutas mid game.
Wall your natural as usual with 2 evos, a roach, warren and a spine crawler or two. Research your attack and carapace upgrades while techibg to Lair and then start roach/hydra speed upgrades as soon as Lair finishes. Begin pumping out Roach Hydras as much as possible. Don't bother taking a 3rd since speedlings and Mutas will just deny it. Place 1-2 spores at your main and nat. Looking at my replays i usually stop droning about 40 drones. Make 2-4 banelings and push out.
When you're pushing out its IMPERATIVE that you close your wall behind you with a Spine crawler. This will prevent ling runbys. Secondly it's very important that you micro your banelings against him when pushing out since he will most undoubtedly try to kill your Hydras with his banelings so you need to make sure your roaches are there to shield your Hydras as well as 2-4 banelings to kill the clump of banelings. Reinforce your army with more roaches and hydras and make sure you occasionally open your wall to let incoming reinforcements come in and then close your wall.
I've had a lot of success with this build in HotS even though its only Diamond. The one weakness to this build is if your opponent decides to do a banelings surround from both sides. This is both map dependent however and can also be counteracted with proper scouting. I don't know how well it works at GM but for everything that's masters and below its pretty effective. |
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| Big J Austria. December 18 2012 05:03. Posts 4997 | Profile Blog # |
Have you tried a classic 2base Infestor with spores and queens for initial defense and add an early burrow.
Then you use burrow to get an Infestor under the mutas, pop up and use instant fungal (no/little traveltime) and then use normal fungals from other infestors (just have to know when to chain with the new projectile), transition into 3base and hydras?
Just a theorycraft  |
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| Markwerf Netherlands. December 18 2012 05:54. Posts 2826 | Profile # |
The entire muta buffing in HotS feels rediculous anyway.
Muta's got exactly the right amount of play in WOL i feel, if they just weren't so incredibly stupid to let widow mines hit air this entire muta buffing etc. would have been completely unneccesary. New units are being fixed with the most ugly fixes possible often in this beta development...
Anyways as it is a small hydra buff seems fine. It's still one of the worst units in the game, 10 more hitpoints would be fair. |
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| SarcasmMonster December 18 2012 06:08. Posts 2897 | Profile # |
@Markwerf
This is what happens when Infestors get big nerfs, the rest of the mid tier army needs buffs since Infestors were so fucking amazing. Whether they went too far with the buff is a good question. |
| | MMA: The true King of Wings |
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| ElMeanYo United States. December 18 2012 06:19. Posts 423 | Profile # |
I think they did nerf the infestor too much... it's not that it's completely useless... just that there are better things to spend your gas on (like more mutas).
I always liked the idea of just making fungal root only ground units (but still do damage to air units). Undo the projectile nerf and this would make infestors still good vs muta, but not as good as they are in WoL. Keep range at 8 and the IT nerf to help out toss and terran.Last edit: 2012-12-18 06:27:52 |
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| Big J Austria. December 18 2012 06:37. Posts 4997 | Profile Blog # |
On December 18 2012 06:19 ElMeanYo wrote:
I think they did nerf the infestor too much... it's not that it's completely useless... just that there are better things to spend your gas on (like more mutas).
I always liked the idea of just making fungal root only ground units (but still do damage to air units). Undo the projectile nerf and this would make infestors still good vs muta, but not as good as they are in WoL. Keep range at 8 to help out toss and terran.
The projectile is great, it makes for more interaction. I think the real deal is that zerg is basically just lacking tools to control mass units without any kind of strong splash. In detail I mean without just massing units themselves, which in the scenario of a very lackluster GtA means you might need to control air.
(Assuming fungal really doesn't work properly anymore... which I think is an exaggeration. It might just require different gameplay/gamplans)Last edit: 2012-12-18 06:37:33 |
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| NonameAI December 18 2012 07:18. Posts 125 | Profile # |
Yep. I lost to a guy who went mass muta. to counter it, i made mass muta. Unfortunately, his 2/2 finished like a minute before mine, because i tried to get hydras. Unfortunately, he just killed a couple hydras, and regenned all his mutas and killed me. All zvz is just mass muta.
I'm going to have to agree with Big J here. Zerg has always had a problem with AoE, and although infestors were a solution in the past, they cannot hit mutas unless the user is the luckiest person in the world. Hydras are no longer effective as well simply because the mutas can kill a few, and come back without damage. I think a smart solution is to make corrupters do much more dmg vs mutas. Before, they were a solution as well. But now, the mutas can outrun them, and come back at full health. |
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| Insoleet France. December 18 2012 08:11. Posts 1360 | Profile # |
| We need the queen to make aoe damages. |
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| Fliparoni December 18 2012 09:15. Posts 100 | Profile # |
| People were complaining in WoL about how boring roach/infestor vs roach/infestor was and were wishing for things like muta vs muta. Now that we have that, people are complaining again. It's a MIRROR match up people. You're gonna have same unit vs same unit battles no matter what the meta is gonna be. |
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| rembrant December 18 2012 09:27. Posts 62 | Profile # |
On December 18 2012 09:15 Fliparoni wrote:
People were complaining in WoL about how boring roach/infestor vs roach/infestor was and were wishing for things like muta vs muta. Now that we have that, people are complaining again. It's a MIRROR match up people. You're gonna have same unit vs same unit battles no matter what the meta is gonna be.
Nobody is complaining that mutas are a lot more viable in zvz, were just looking for alternatives to just muta vs muta as goint for hydra and or infestors doesn't cut it at all right now as far as I can tell. |
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