| madals United Kingdom. December 18 2012 03:02. Posts 242 | Profile Blog # |
So I have been messing around on HotS as random for a while now and have stumbled upon something that seems incredibly strong - I do apologise if this has been discussed before btw!
So basically when playing PvT you build as if you are going for a 3gate blink stalker + obs 1 base play, but rather than going for the robo + obs you just get a mothership core. Now, the reason I feel this is so strong with the current set up is that the mothership core not only grants vision of the high ground allowing you to blink up but ALSO attacks and ALSO allows you to mass recall should the Terran be in a strong defensive position (the recall can occur obviously before you would be able to blink away).
In terms of defending this, obviously the terran can just keep a few marines by the cliff to his main but vs a 1rax CC or any early expand build I can foresee this being incredibly strong.
Key disadvantage: Core is not invis, therefore can be snipped.
Key advantages:
Core can attack, mass recall. Core only takes 30s to build compared to 95seconds for obs (inc robo)
Core 125 mineral / 75 gas cheaper than robo + obs.
What are your thoughts on this?
MadalsLast edit: 2012-12-18 03:08:04 |
| | Caster: @MadalsSC2 http://www.youtube.com/Madals91 <-- |
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| Dvriel December 18 2012 03:13. Posts 447 | Profile # |
| MScore should only move into the Ps base and not used as attacking unit |
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| Whiplash Korea (South). December 18 2012 03:31. Posts 2586 | Profile Blog # |
| Widow mines are pretty good at stopping mothership cores from getting close to ledges, maybe try to utilize them. |
| | IEG Proleague Caster. Go knights! | |
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| TheLunatic December 18 2012 03:31. Posts 300 | Profile # |
| Love this dynamic, will keep terrans honest |
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| Steglich Denmark. December 18 2012 03:34. Posts 270 | Profile # |
On December 18 2012 03:13 Dvriel wrote:
MScore should only move into the Ps base and not used as attacking unit
I agree. the MS core should be entirely a defensive unit. |
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| ZjiublingZ United Arab Emirates. December 18 2012 03:42. Posts 428 | Profile # |
On December 18 2012 03:31 Whiplash wrote:
Widow mines are pretty good at stopping mothership cores from getting close to ledges, maybe try to utilize them.
They shouldn't be, unless supported by Siege Tanks. MSC has vision+detection of 14, so the only reason for them to be in range of Widow Mines is a huge, huge blunder by the Protoss. |
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| BeyondCtrL Sweden. December 18 2012 04:01. Posts 557 | Profile # |
On December 18 2012 03:34 Steglich wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 03:13 Dvriel wrote:
MScore should only move into the Ps base and not used as attacking unit
I agree. the MS core should be entirely a defensive unit.
Recall would have to be removed or redesigned in that case. |
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 Markwerf Netherlands. December 18 2012 04:06. Posts 2845 | Profile # |
This tactic is too good and ruining two matchups in HotS at the moment, PvT but also PvP.
Terran can stop this with bio though they often still take damage but this opening or variants of it a big reason mech is a complete joke. Terran can't really scout this coming easily and this attack can just as well come with 5 gates on 2 bases.
Widow mines are supposed to useful for stopping attacks like this but the MsC also happens to a super awesome detector while those same stalkers conviently outrange mines.. If you rely on widow mines to stop this you just spend 50 energy and kill those mines for free.. Even if you were uncareful and blinked on top of the widow mines you end up trading 1 stalker per widow mine which isn't such a blowout..
In PvP this tactic is so good that I feel you should never do something else..
DT? No problem, msc provides detection
FE? blink stalker harass hopping between the bases and you lose, cannon from msc can only prevent one base afterall..
Robo? sure, blink stalker just expands earlier and can still try all sorts of harass. Robo feels pointless in PvP anyway since the colossus transition is easily stopped with tempests now. The ultimate composition seems to be just chargelot/archon, if they go colossi you respond with tempests, if they go air you respond with some stalkers...
Stargate? Blink stalkers are pretty good against that
The MsC as it is right now is too good. The best fix probably is just to revert it to it's original form, being an add-on for the nexus. If they really want to insist on keeping it a flying unit they should at least remove the detection and change widow mines so those would actually be effective at stopping this..Removing detection might fix PvP a little too since blink stalker opening would at least be countered by DT again then and a slight rock/paper/scissors strategy returns instead of one tactic just trumping all... Just give back detection to the oracle which makes that unit more interesting as well.
This issue really deserves more attention because the current MsC design is really the biggest problem in HotS at the moment. Most matchups feel allright but PvP and PvT are slightly broken by this design.. |
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| Pookie Monster United States. December 18 2012 04:11. Posts 303 | Profile # |
| Thor opening is the only way ive been able to stop this with a mech build, Thors and make marauders off of a tech labebd barracks, only like two are needed. |
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| moskonia Israel. December 18 2012 04:16. Posts 934 | Profile # |
You should also add that you can use the detection to see if the Terran has widow mines, and kill them if he has any, a major advantage, while not having a robo makes defending cloak banshees counter attacks much harder. Overall the Terran will have a harder time defending this then the WOL version, but not by far.
Right now blink + obs pushes are very strong in WOL as well, but Terran players have found a way to stop this - lift the expansion to the main and build the barracks in the back of the base so the Protoss can't snipe add-on's while having bunkers at key locations. I am not sure exactly how having a MSC instead of an obs will change since I haven't tried it yet, but I don't think it will make a major difference, even though it might make the build better overall I doubt it will make it imbalanced. |
| | "He who learns to walk, should never crawl again" | |
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| Hider Denmark. December 18 2012 04:21. Posts 3186 | Profile Blog # |
| According to Dustin Browder they are lookng at blink allins, so expect them to get nerfed. I honestly wouldn't use this build as protoss if you want to get better. |
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| -MoOsE- United States. December 18 2012 04:43. Posts 232 | Profile # |
On December 18 2012 04:21 Hider wrote:
According to Dustin Browder they are lookng at blink allins, so expect them to get nerfed. I honestly wouldn't use this build as protoss if you want to get better.
Well in pvp you don't really have a choice |
| | The King in the North Fighting |
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| Krychek United States. December 18 2012 04:46. Posts 172 | Profile # |
The problem is the all in itself, not the Msc.
Msc gave P what they never had: non-all-inish map roam in early-mid game. Also the unit itself is pretty vulnerable.
And for a T, taking damage aganist an all-in should be standard, once you stop the all-in, you win the game.
Still, I agree that the build is too strong right now, cose the same 1base build should not be as strong and viable for 2 match ups. There must be a form of rebalance.
But, removing the Msc core as a roam form would be a big lose to an interesting new dynamic.
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| Markwerf Netherlands. December 18 2012 05:49. Posts 2845 | Profile # |
On December 18 2012 04:46 Krychek wrote:
The problem is the all in itself, not the Msc.
Msc gave P what they never had: non-all-inish map roam in early-mid game. Also the unit itself is pretty vulnerable.
And for a T, taking damage aganist an all-in should be standard, once you stop the all-in, you win the game.
Still, I agree that the build is too strong right now, cose the same 1base build should not be as strong and viable for 2 match ups. There must be a form of rebalance.
But, removing the Msc core as a roam form would be a big lose to an interesting new dynamic.
Blink play is by no means an all-in though. You can easily expand before or after executing this pressure and it easily transitions into ht (PvT) or chargelot/archon(PvP).
A robo often feels completely unneccesary until late in PvT and PvP now. You can scout with hallucination and you have detection anyway. Colossi are not really great in PvP anymore it seems and I prefer HT before colossi in PvT too. Blink stalkers are ideal to transition from if you prefer robo-less play, with the harass capabilities of oracle and new medivac I really like having the tech ready just in case anyway
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| Everlong Czech Republic. December 18 2012 05:56. Posts 1368 | Profile # |
On December 18 2012 04:21 Hider wrote:
According to Dustin Browder they are lookng at blink allins, so expect them to get nerfed. I honestly wouldn't use this build as protoss if you want to get better.
Source? |
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| Krychek United States. December 18 2012 06:06. Posts 172 | Profile # |
On December 18 2012 05:49 Markwerf wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 04:46 Krychek wrote:
The problem is the all in itself, not the Msc.
Msc gave P what they never had: non-all-inish map roam in early-mid game. Also the unit itself is pretty vulnerable.
And for a T, taking damage aganist an all-in should be standard, once you stop the all-in, you win the game.
Still, I agree that the build is too strong right now, cose the same 1base build should not be as strong and viable for 2 match ups. There must be a form of rebalance.
But, removing the Msc core as a roam form would be a big lose to an interesting new dynamic.
Blink play is by no means an all-in though. You can easily expand before or after executing this pressure and it easily transitions into ht (PvT) or chargelot/archon(PvP). A robo often feels completely unneccesary until late in PvT and PvP now. You can scout with hallucination and you have detection anyway. Colossi are not really great in PvP anymore it seems and I prefer HT before colossi in PvT too. Blink stalkers are ideal to transition from if you prefer robo-less play, with the harass capabilities of oracle and new medivac I really like having the tech ready just in case anyway
You can expand after any "all-in" indeed. But your expo will be extremely late, same your tech and upgrades compared to the opponent. That is my concept for all-in, I may be wrong ofc.
And, I guess you are not a P, but Collosi are still the tech of choice for any even PvP in hots, and you need to start to build those collosi numbers as soon as you can. |
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| Empirimancer Canada. December 18 2012 06:50. Posts 724 | Profile # |
The mothership core was fine as an attachment to the Nexus IMO. Hell, even the model looked better. Recall would be reverted to what it once was (i.e. target the units to be recalled rather than the Nexus to recall to), and teleporting the core between Nexi would either be a cooldown or cost very little energy. Detection would work around the core, making it purely defensive. Increase its life and shields, too. Voilà, all problems fixed.
Last edit: 2012-12-18 07:30:18 |
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| Hider Denmark. December 18 2012 06:53. Posts 3186 | Profile Blog # |
On December 18 2012 05:56 Everlong wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 04:21 Hider wrote:
According to Dustin Browder they are lookng at blink allins, so expect them to get nerfed. I honestly wouldn't use this build as protoss if you want to get better.
Source?
Too lazy to find it, but you can search on the battlenet forums on the username Rock and find his most recent posts. |
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| Harbinger631 United States. December 18 2012 06:53. Posts 375 | Profile # |
| Except that the mothership core as a unit opens up a higher skill ceiling and a lot more micro opportunities. It's a much more interesting unit in it's current form. |
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| Bagi December 18 2012 07:05. Posts 5927 | Profile # |
As a terran the detection just feels like too much. The MSC already grants extra dps, vision and the ability to recall back to base for a price cheaper than the observer. The detection however pretty much nullifies defensive widow mines, which makes all mech openers utter garbage against blink stalker openers.
Its gotten to a point where if I scout a toss taking 2 early gas, I blindly prepare for blink stalkers. Just ridiculous buffs to a strategy that was already very strong on maps like CK and antiga.Last edit: 2012-12-18 07:06:42 |
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