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[D] Beta Updates #8, 9, and 10

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS 1 2 All
 
 TheWarWaffle   Canada. December 19 2012 07:54. Posts 2
Profile # 
Hello, TeamLiquid.net. I have stalked this site from the shadows for quite some time, but now I feel that the time has come to finally post something that could possibly be useful towards the future of the Heart of the Swarm StarCraft 2 expansion.

I won’t pretend that I’m the good player. Because I’m not.

I won’t pretend to know every single little tidbit of information about the current metagame, such as timings, build orders, etc. Because I don’t.

I can, however, say with complete and utter confidence that I watch a lot more games than the majority of people out there. Whether it be on YouTube via the likes of HuskyStarcarft, Day[9], HDstarcraft, TotalBiscuit, and PsyStarcraft, or on livestreams and tournament VODs, I watch a LOT of StarCraft 2.

I play this game for fun. I watch this game for fun. I wish to see it become the global leader in eSports. And to do that, it needs to be enjoyable from both a player’s perspective and a watcher’s perspective.

With all the incredible players, the massive money pools, and now a full-fledged partnership with MLG-KeSpa, the viewers and players should be happier than ever to have a game as exciting as StarCraft 2. The only problem is: the views are down.


How Can This Be Happening?


+ Show Spoiler +


What Blizzard is doing in HotS to fix this:


Terran:


+ Show Spoiler +



Protoss:


+ Show Spoiler +



Zerg:


+ Show Spoiler +

If you're looking for a tl;dr version, you are sorely out of luck. I'd like to hear other people's thoughts and opinion on the points I've brought up, along with the overall effectiveness of the patches and what you guys would like to see before the beta is up and gone.
Friends will help you move. Best friends will help you move the bodies.
Old Post

  theException   Canada. December 19 2012 08:12. Posts 23Profile # 
I like how you are not making a big deal of the Infestor buff in patch 10. There was no way in hell it could be used in the state it was in and the buff was almost perfect imo (longer range actually means other races have more time to dodge it). I am sure Bliz can change it slightly if it was too much or not enough.

You must accept him just to stay as an exception
Old Post

 
 justinpal   United States. December 19 2012 08:43. Posts 3233
Profile # 
Meh, I disagree.
Never make a hydralisk.
Old Post

 
 HardlyNever   United States. December 19 2012 09:02. Posts 892
Profile Blog # 
The views are down because that is the nature of the video game industry. People get bored with things and move on, and that is even more salient when talking about video games. That is just the nature of the beast. I think it has little to nothing to do with the actual game, except that starcraft has much less broad appeal compared to F2P games like LoL and soon to be Dota 2.



Old Post

 
 TheWarWaffle   Canada. December 19 2012 15:35. Posts 2
Profile # 

On December 19 2012 08:43 justinpal wrote:
Meh, I disagree.


Pray tell why you disagree.
Friends will help you move. Best friends will help you move the bodies.
Old Post

  xPabt   December 19 2012 15:52. Posts 226Profile # 
Vikings having armor is not that helpful because the main things doing damage to them are fungal and storm. Vikings are units that need to snipe shit as fast as possible. Raven not having splash damage really kills Raven+BC late game vs Zerg.
Old Post

 
 SheaR619   United States. December 19 2012 16:45. Posts 1556
Profile # 
You are wrong in so many ways as listed above. Regarding the widowmine, many people can agree that the widowmine start to lose it effectiveness going to the mid game and then when it get late game they are pretty bad. This combine with the nerf to make widowmine weaker, widowmine will be almost none existences in TvP. Making this change a rather bad one imo because zerg were already starting to figure out how to deal with mine. Now they just get detection and 1-A roaches through mine. This also make the decrease burrow time upgrade useless because no one will be going mine late game because they are not worth the supply before and even worst now.

EDIT: also the person above me is spot on why the armor change does very little for mech.
Last edit: 2012-12-19 16:47:11
I may not be the best, but i will be some day...
Old Post

 
 Alex1Sun   December 19 2012 20:42. Posts 413
Profile Blog # 
I really like where Blizzard is going with the overall game design. They are making more units useful, they are reforming the gameplay to make it more micro- and position-oriented etc. The particular numbers can be changed to correct the balance (quite likely it is not well balanced now), but the overall design direction is great.

I would be happy to see even more emphasis on micro- and position-oriented play, i.e. buff tanks in siege mode, make colossus more dependent on good micro etc. But even in its current state HoTS looks great compared to WoL. I am very satisfied with patches 8-10.
Last edit: 2012-12-19 20:47:52
This is not Warcraft in space!
Old Post

 
 Alex1Sun   December 19 2012 20:47. Posts 413
Profile Blog # 

On December 19 2012 16:45 SheaR619 wrote:
You are wrong in so many ways as listed above. Regarding the widowmine, many people can agree that the widowmine start to lose it effectiveness going to the mid game and then when it get late game they are pretty bad. This combine with the nerf to make widowmine weaker, widowmine will be almost none existences in TvP. Making this change a rather bad one imo because zerg were already starting to figure out how to deal with mine. Now they just get detection and 1-A roaches through mine. This also make the decrease burrow time upgrade useless because no one will be going mine late game because they are not worth the supply before and even worst now.

Let's wait and see I guess. Widow mine users are also learning how to use them better. Numbers can always be changed if widow mines appear to be too weak. What is important is how the widow mine is designed. I like the current version even if it's not very useful against protoss. There are however other options. For example, what do you think about making widow-mine attack stronger vs ground and weaker vs air?
Last edit: 2012-12-19 20:49:56
This is not Warcraft in space!
Old Post

 
 Hider   Denmark. December 19 2012 20:50. Posts 3167
Profile Blog # 

On December 19 2012 09:02 HardlyNever wrote:
The views are down because that is the nature of the video game industry. People get bored with things and move on, and that is even more salient when talking about video games. That is just the nature of the beast. I think it has little to nothing to do with the actual game, except that starcraft has much less broad appeal compared to F2P games like LoL and soon to be Dota 2.






This is mostly true. I think people overstates the effect the winfestors had had on hte game in terms of viewerships.
Also, we could already see that the amount of active players began declining 1½ year ago, and this was probably a leading indicator for viewerships. However, Blizzard could increase the longevity of the game by changing its business model (to a model where they can monetize the game better).
Old Post

 
 Hider   Denmark. December 19 2012 20:51. Posts 3167
Profile Blog # 

On December 19 2012 20:47 Alex1Sun wrote:

Show nested quote +


Let's wait and see I guess. Widow mine users are also learning how to use them better. Numbers can always be changed if widow mines appear to be too weak. What is important is how the widow mine is designed. I like the current version even if it's not very useful against protoss. There are however other options. For example, what do you think about making widow-mine attack stronger vs ground and weaker vs air?


You do realize that widow mines are completely useless vs toss right now?
Also why can't you use the same argument regarding protoss?
Toss's could learn to play against the widow mine by microing moreship core and observer better.
Old Post

 
 agahamsorr0w   Netherlands. December 19 2012 21:25. Posts 264
Profile # 
mutas not good vs terran? u kidding right? they have been the standard for almost a year since release of wol and are still being used. The only reason zergs use infestors is that they are more easy to use because you only need to defend.
Old Post

 
 Alex1Sun   December 19 2012 22:34. Posts 413
Profile Blog # 

On December 19 2012 20:51 Hider wrote:

Show nested quote +



You do realize that widow mines are completely useless vs toss right now?
Also why can't you use the same argument regarding protoss?
Toss's could learn to play against the widow mine by microing moreship core and observer better.

I would rather prefer widow mines not shutting down drop and banshee play than widow mines useful against protoss. Not every unit has to be useful in every match up. Microing moreship core and observer vs widow mines is rather simple anyway because of difference in ranges and not a big issue in high level games regardless of how much damage widow mine does. Alternatively make a widow mine do more damage to ground, so that it still kills zealots/stalkers but doesn't oneshoot banshees/dropships.
Last edit: 2012-12-19 22:38:43
This is not Warcraft in space!
Old Post

 
 Hider   Denmark. December 19 2012 22:38. Posts 3167
Profile Blog # 

On December 19 2012 22:34 Alex1Sun wrote:

Show nested quote +


I would rather prefer widow mines not shutting down drop and banshee play than widow mines useful against protoss. Not every unit has to be useful in every match up. Microing moreship core and observer vs widow mines is rather simple anyway and not a big issue in high level games regardless of how much damage widow mine does.


Fine; remove anti air and make it 1 supply.
Or make this change and combine it with 1 supply.

Blizzards changes are retarded. They really need to make mech viable vs toss, and for some reason they just choose to nerf it patch after patch.
Old Post

 
 Morton   United States. December 19 2012 22:39. Posts 87
Profile # 
This seems suspiciously like that destiny thread from a month or so back >.>

honestly the viewers are WAY up since the #8 and #9 patches (remember right after the warhound was removed, HOTS never got above like 600 viewers
Old Post

 
 DemigodcelpH   United States. December 19 2012 22:56. Posts 878
Profile # 
You're not really pointing out any of the major issues.

With Hydra speed at lair now and Muta buffs along with Protoss being buffed at every stage of the game (Protoss is the strongest HotS race according to the battle.net communuty) it's to my understanding that these two races don't have any major issues as of now. On the other-hand 50% of the Terran race is nonviable. Mech isn't viable in either TvP or TvZ (even Idra says you can't mech because of the Viper), the tank is still garbage and can't even kill a Zergling in 1 hit (the tank is getting a lot of emphasis because it's the glue that holds mech together, and the one of the best designed units in the game that NEEDS to be a threat for the sake of more interesting games), and Fungal got buffed to an arguably better state than it was in WoL despite Mutalisks and Hydralisks receiving drastic buffs.

Patch #8 was a step in the right direction which is why the community cried tears of joy when it was released (it even included the god-tier hidden change of giving Carriers BW micro back), though patches #9 and #10 were very very poor. You grouped the three patches together, but made no distinction of this.
Last edit: 2012-12-19 22:59:52
Old Post

 
 Mahanaim   Korea (South). December 19 2012 23:40. Posts 247
Profile # 
Interesting post, let's get more constructive feedback coming
Starcraft 2 & Mabinogi for life! Go SKT1!
Old Post

 
 Seiniyta   Belgium. December 19 2012 23:53. Posts 1462
Profile # 
I just would like the Widow Mine to have an upgrade at the tech lab or armory where you can research the ability to shoot up.
He's red! Now he's dead!
Old Post

 
 nucleo   December 20 2012 00:27. Posts 227
Profile # 

On December 19 2012 08:12 theException wrote:
I like how you are not making a big deal of the Infestor buff in patch 10. There was no way in hell it could be used in the state it was in and the buff was almost perfect imo (longer range actually means other races have more time to dodge it). I am sure Bliz can change it slightly if it was too much or not enough.



with the speed buff they give less time to dodge it.


I really want to watch some streams of pros before i make up my mind but these changes seem way too harsh on terran imo
Last edit: 2012-12-20 00:36:35
Old Post

 
 Treehead   December 20 2012 00:42. Posts 998
Profile Blog # 
It's very difficult to take you seriously when you say things like this:


On December 19 2012 07:54 TheWarWaffle wrote:

Thor

250mm Strike Cannons has been removed.
The Thor can now switch between two modes: High-Impact Payload and Explosive Payload. The mode shift takes 4 seconds.
When in High-Impact Payload mode, the Thor switches to a different anti-air gun (250mm Punisher Cannons) that has 10 range and deals 24 flat damage.


...

With the new anti-air mode, suddenly Mech has a soft-counter to air. With an impressive 10 range and a steady 24 damage per shot that is not diminished by any specific unit type, the Thor has finally become the heavy support unit that Mech needed: something that can deal with both ground and air equally. While I still believe that it needs more testing, I approve of this change wholeheartedly.

...

If the Raven now has Yamato Cannon, why would you even build Battlecruisers now?

...

Yes, because Hellbats need an even larger AOE attack that melts Zerglings and Zealots. Not entirely sure why this was added, other than to dissuade the other races to go mass tier 1 against Mech and win.

...

Oracle

Pulsar Beam
Now called “Activate Pulsar Beam” and “Deactivate Pulsar Beam”.
Pulsar Beam activation now costs 25 energy.
While active, Pulsar Beam now drains 2 energy per second.
Weapon deals 15+10 light.
Weapon period changed to 0.86, down from 1.
Weapon range reduced to 4.


...

I think it’s strange that they gave a previously non-combat spellcaster one of the most damaging spells in the game.

...

Dark Templar are a very chancy unit. When the Dark Shrine cost 100/250, it was a very sizeable investment. Then the cost was reduced to 100/100. With the new, extremely low price, DT rushes became extremely viable again.

Short story even shorter, you could get them far too quickly. Hence the price hike.

...

Tempest

…Really? 80 damage against Massive flying units? 80 f***ing damage? That’s more than any other unit in the game.

...

In PvP, this has all but removed the Colossi from this matchup. While some people may think this is a good thing (and I partially agree, War of the Worlds battles got old quick), there is now going to be even less variety in the matchup with every logical person going Stargate, as the new units and improved old ones will be virtually uncounterable if you yourself do not go Stargate.

...


Void Ray

...

Flux Vanes (which made it overpowered. Don’t lie, I’m sure you remember the Beta days with mass Speed Rays being unstoppable.)

...

All-ins are fun to watch

....

With the new health regeneration buff and increased speed, mass Muta in ZvP can no longer be countered by mass Stalker.

...

[still regarding the muta] Faster, flying roaches. Cool.

...





Some quick facts:

1. The new Thor attack does 12 dps to air (and is not as affected by armor). The old attack did 8 dps(and splashed). In what world is a 300/200 unit with 400 health and a 12 dps air attack any kind of "counter" to air? 3 stalkers have more health, the same supply cost, less gas cost and about the same relative cost (375/150), nearly double the dps (more than double against armored types), the same supply and are less gas heavy. Oh yeah, and they are one of the most mobile units in the game.

2. No one builds BCs just for Yamato. They have 3 armor, high health and very high dps. You'll notice that Ravens do not so much have this.

3. Blizzard said in one of their blogs that the longer hellbat range was intended to make the hellbat more useful against ranged units. You'll notice that by lengthening the cone of damage, it doesn't actually change how it functions against units which are already in melee range (like zealots and lings).

4. The Oracle's 17 dps (29 against light) attack is far from "the most damaging spell in the game". If you assume that the Oracle is not attacked, that it has ample targets not to move, and that it does so for 25 seconds, it can expend 75 energy to do 425 damage (725 if all targets are light). Ever seen bio standing in storms without microing away? Because if said storm continually hit only 6 targets, it did more damage. As it's attack goes, it's little more than in line with the banshee's dps - considering it needs to spend energy to attack. And even then, I could claim that cloak gives a banshee more than 50 seconds of uninterrupted dps if you don't have detection - making it the most damaging spell in the game. Or what about infested terran? 3 of them also cost 75 energy - and do 837 damage over 30 seconds when attacking continuously. The "spell" is really just enabling an attack - which does deal high dps, but not an unprecedented amount given its gas cost.

5. The Carrier does 80 (5x2 damage per interceptor, 8 interceptors) burst damage without upgrades, and gains +16 damage per upgrade (double what the Tempest gets per upgrade). Yet, its dps is a joke. Why? High delay. The Tempest has an even higher delay. People still use Colossi in PvP, and TC/blink remains a strong tech path against stargate at all points of a game. Your pvp analysis regarding the Tempest is really just horribly wrong.

6. You might have hated it, but Flux Vanes never won tournaments.

7. Allins are not fun to watch.

8. Stalkers still counter mutas. They still only die to mutas when they don't blink or micro properly. The health regen and speed increase will be hard to deal with, but in a straight up fight, mutas are really, really bad. I think the verdict is still out on how well they'll be able to force fights. It will depend more on how the maps look long term than anything else.

9. Mutas are nothing like roaches. A roach is something protoss has problems with because they have high health, high damage and are cheap to make. A muta has low health, low damage, is expensive to make, but is fast. A roach is a unit that blows protoss units out of the water for cost if it can get a straight fight at a good angle. A muta is a unit that never wants to fight anything at any angle, and is almost forced to retreat at the first sign of trouble.
Old Post

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