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| TheWarWaffle Canada. December 19 2012 07:54. Posts 2 | Profile # |
Hello, TeamLiquid.net. I have stalked this site from the shadows for quite some time, but now I feel that the time has come to finally post something that could possibly be useful towards the future of the Heart of the Swarm StarCraft 2 expansion.
I won’t pretend that I’m the good player. Because I’m not.
I won’t pretend to know every single little tidbit of information about the current metagame, such as timings, build orders, etc. Because I don’t.
I can, however, say with complete and utter confidence that I watch a lot more games than the majority of people out there. Whether it be on YouTube via the likes of HuskyStarcarft, Day[9], HDstarcraft, TotalBiscuit, and PsyStarcraft, or on livestreams and tournament VODs, I watch a LOT of StarCraft 2.
I play this game for fun. I watch this game for fun. I wish to see it become the global leader in eSports. And to do that, it needs to be enjoyable from both a player’s perspective and a watcher’s perspective.
With all the incredible players, the massive money pools, and now a full-fledged partnership with MLG-KeSpa, the viewers and players should be happier than ever to have a game as exciting as StarCraft 2. The only problem is: the views are down.
How Can This Be Happening?
+ Show Spoiler +Ask yourself this question: how many games that had at least one Zerg player did I see Infestor/Broodlord? Far too many, if you ask me. There are only so many times that you can hear a caster try to put as much excitement into ‘Wow, look at those sick fungals!’ or ‘Wow, that Broodlord positioning was top notch!’ before you realize that something is amiss.
Here’s another question: how many games that had at least one Protoss player did I see a maxed out deathball with Stalkers, Zealots, Immortals, Colossi, High Templar/Archons? Again, far too many if you ask me. A ‘1A’, massive deathball-on-deathball clash is not what I find interesting or entertaining to watch. Sure, it’s nice to see a huge, screen-encompassing battle every once in a while, but not every game.
One last question: how many games that had at least one Terran player did he either: A) Win in a timing attack in the early/middle game, or B) Lose in a lategame battle? It’s actually rather silly: a Terran player vs. either a Zerg or Protoss is highly favoured towards the other race if it gets into the late-game. Whether it be from the massive AOE damage that comes from the Protoss Tier 3 arsenal via Colossi and Psi-Storm or from a never-ending swarm of broodlings backed up with Fungal Growths to prevent retreat and micro, the end result is the same.
What Blizzard is doing in HotS to fix this:
Terran:
+ Show Spoiler +Medivac
New ability: Emergency Thrusters Speed boost that increases movement speed and acceleration to 4.25 for 8 seconds. 20 second cooldown.
This buff was implemented to encourage drop play, which is an exciting and micro-intensive ‘high risk, high reward’ gamble. On one hand, you could demolish an opponent’s mineral line in seconds, snipe key tech structures, etc. On the other hand, you could lose up to 500 minerals and 100 gas (if it was a pure marine drop).
It will be interesting to see how this new ability works out, as Terran has always been more drop-inclined than the other races. I think that the speed boost will either become:
A) Nerfed, with either a speed decrease, or requiring an upgrade to use. B) The other races are given greater drop play potential.
The Medivac’s Caduceus Reactor upgrade at the Starport Tech Lab. Requires Fusion Core to be able to research. Health restored per second from 9 to 15. Energy cost reduced from 3 health per 1 energy to 5 health per 1 energy. Cost increased from 100/100 and 80 seconds to 150/150 and 110 seconds.
Halle-freakin’-lujah! The Caduceus Reactor finally has a purpose besides being an upgrade that nobody ever got ever (aside from bronze league players who wanted every single upgrade).
Let’s all be realistic here: 25 bonus energy for the Medivac was an absolutely piss-poor and useless upgrade. Quite frankly, I’m surprised that it was left in the game for this long. Now, the upgrade solves two important issues: making a previously useless upgrade useful, and buffing Bio armies in the late-game.
With the 66% increase in healing potential, along with the reduced energy cost, Bio armies can now actually stand a chance in straight up fights against Protoss/Zerg tier 3.
Well, not entirely, but you get my point. They’re better now. With the activated speed boost ability and the new and improved Caduceus Reactor upgrade, I expect to see a lot more M/M/M play in HotS, instead of the never-ending mech play that the new units have brought to the game.
The Medivac’s healing beam now changes color once the Caduceus Reactor upgrade is complete.
This is a nice change, as it allowed Terran opponents to know when the now all-important upgrade has been researched. As an added bonus, it also acts as a reminder for the Terran player to get the upgrade if the healing beam is the plain ol’ green colour.
Reaper
Base speed increased from 2.95 to 3.375 Upgraded speed increased from 3.84 to 4.25.
While the speed upgrade on both the stock reaper and the upgraded reaper are nice, I still think that Terran do NOT need two tier 1.5/2 harassment units. The reaper and the hellion’s uses and strengths are similar.
Ex: Both are a light, fast unit that decimate mineral lines. Both provide early/midgame scouting.
(I'm also completely ignoring the fact that TvT is broken as hell right now. If you don't go marauder or reaper, you pretty much straight-up lose.)
I believe that the reaper has a use, albeit not one that Terran requires at the moment.
Widow Mine
No longer hits cloaked units.
Funnily enough, I was going to suggest that Blizzard remove the ability for Widow Mines to attack either air or cloaked units. It made Widow Mines in the early game against Protoss very difficult to deal with if you managed to snipe the Observer/Mothership Core. Now, a single Stalker, whose attack outranges the Widow Mine, and an observer can now clear Widow Mine lines with impunity. A single DT and an Observer can now be a designated minesweeper combo, making DTs just a bit more viable in the matchup.
New upgrade: Drilling Claws Decreases burrow time from 3 to 1 second. Requires Tech Lab and Armory. Costs 150/150, 110 second research time.
This upgrade suddenly makes Widow Mines an absolute terror to deal with in the mid/late game. A small group of them running into your mineral lines will decimate your economy in, quite literally, 3 seconds. Run in, burrow, detonate, unburrow, run away before the opponent’s army can respond.
This upgrade, combined with the new Medivac speed boost, will make Widow Mine drops an extremely potent and devastating tactic.
Unburrowed Widow Mine attack priority decreased to 19, down from 20. Burrowed Widow Mine attack priority remains unchanged.
This buff allows unburrowed Widow Mines to travel with the main army without getting immediately sniped by other enemy units with the attack priority decrease. An interesting change, one that will hopefully promote more burrow/unburrow micro.
Sentinel Missles singe-target damage changed from 160 to 125.
All in all, the Widow Mines received a nerf to their early game against Protoss (They no longer one-shot stalkers or zealots, no longer able to sniper observer) and a buff to their mid/late game against all races with the Drilling Claws. Good changes, iffen you ask me.
Thor
250mm Strike Cannons has been removed. The Thor can now switch between two modes: High-Impact Payload and Explosive Payload. The mode shift takes 4 seconds. When in High-Impact Payload mode, the Thor switches to a different anti-air gun (250mm Punisher Cannons) that has 10 range and deals 24 flat damage.
Ahh, hell. It’s about damn time! Much like the Caduceus Reactor, 250mm Strike Cannons were made all but useless after Blizzard changed the ability from a cooldown to a researchable spell. In fact, the spell was more of a liability than a benefit, as the energy bar made them easy targets for feedback.
With the new anti-air mode, suddenly Mech has a soft-counter to air. With an impressive 10 range and a steady 24 damage per shot that is not diminished by any specific unit type, the Thor has finally become the heavy support unit that Mech needed: something that can deal with both ground and air equally. While I still believe that it needs more testing, I approve of this change wholeheartedly.
Thor radius, inner radius, and separation radius increased from 0.8215 to 1.
This change was simply made to make the Thor less easy to mass up. Which is a good thing. The Thor is already practically a 1A unit, so any change that makes them require more positioning is a step in the right direction.
Raven
Seeker Missile has been redesigned: Can now fire from 10 range. Missile comes out and stays immobile in front of the Raven for 3 seconds while charging up, then rapidly moves (it’s not dodgeable at this point) and explodes at the target for 300 single target damage. Targeted unit lights up red when targeted. If the unit moves 13 range out of where the Seeker Missile is, the Missile fizzles.
Long story short: now the Raven has a Yamato Cannon that can be dodged. Personally, I liked the old Seeker Missile, but the fact that the Raven had to practically be on top of the unit to cast it made it a difficult ability to use, to say the least.
With 10 range (13 if you count the true range on which it will activate), Mech now has a one-shot spell that can easily deal with normally extremely problematic units (Broodlord, Immortals) from very far away. My own qualm is this:
If the Raven now has Yamato Cannon, why would you even build Battlecruisers now?
Hellbat
Splash damage radius increased from 90 to 110.
Yes, because Hellbats need an even larger AOE attack that melts Zerglings and Zealots. Not entirely sure why this was added, other than to dissuade the other races to go mass tier 1 against Mech and win.
Armory
Vehicle and Ship Plating upgrades are combined. Vehicle and Ship Weapon upgrades are still separate.
This is a good change, as now each race has 5 main upgrades for their ground/air units. With the Plating upgrade applying to units from both the Factory and the Starport, Mech players now have even less of an excuse to not get a sizeable fleet of Vikings as anti-air. Double armory play is now more devastating than ever.
Protoss:
+ Show Spoiler +Mothership
Recall now functions as it does with the Mothership Core.
I always thought that the way Recall worked was strange. It was identical to the Arbiter from BW, but it was on a unit that there could only be one of. It basically made you decide: ‘Hmm, do I want to have my army cloaked and have the ability to Vortex a group of enemy units, or do I want to be able to retreat with a portion of my army?’ 9 times out of 10, the player went with the first. Speaking of Vortex…
Vortex now kills a single target. Vortex does not affect massive units.
Lolwut? Vortex now kills a single unit, but not a massive one. A tier 3.5 massive, one-of-a-kind. Flying behemoth can now, finally, one shot a unit. Just as long as it’s not a Broodlord, Ultralisk, Thor, Battlecruiser, Tempest, Carrier, or Colossus. You know, any unit that would actually be worth expending 100 energy to kill.
Now officially the Protoss BM spell, Vortex has been made all but useless by Blizzard. I understand that they are trying to phase out Vortex for things like the Tempest, but come on. At least replace the spell with something cool.
Mothership Core
No longer massive.
This was probably only changed to make it less vulnerable to both Corruptors and Tempests.
Oracle
Pulsar Beam Now called “Activate Pulsar Beam” and “Deactivate Pulsar Beam”. Pulsar Beam activation now costs 25 energy. While active, Pulsar Beam now drains 2 energy per second. Weapon deals 15+10 light. Weapon period changed to 0.86, down from 1. Weapon range reduced to 4.
Now, Air Toss has a small, fast, weak unit that can eat up mineral lines for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Wait a second…this isn’t the Phoenix?
No, no it’s not. The Phoenix has always been a very niche unit: it was a hard counter to mutalisks and Banshees, and a good harasser of mineral lines. With double damage to light units and the Graviton Beam spell, groups of Phoenix could demolish mineral lines (as long as they were microed properly.)
I think it’s strange that they gave a previously non-combat spellcaster one of the most damaging spells in the game. Especially one that requires little micro to use effectively. Fly into a mineral line, turn on Pulsar Beam, watch all the workers die, turn off Pulsar Beam, fly away. Along with Time Warp (I’m not even going to include Revelation, as nobody seems to ever use it), the Oracle has two very potent spells that can change the course of a game.
Build time increased to 50, up from 35. Energy drain is now 4 per second.
The longer build time reflects the Oracles, quite frankly, overpowered new attack. While I agree that Protoss needs some sort of unit that counters light units, I don’t believe that the Oracle is that unit.
Phoenix
Range increased from 4 to 5. Upgrade still grants +2 range.
Ask yourself this: ‘What does the Phoenix counter?’ Well…Banshees, Mutalisks, Oracles, and Vipers (three of which can’t attack back). That’s it. Technically, it counters all non-massive ground units as well with Graviton Beam, but since that spell costs energy, it is normally only viable for killing workers or ground casters (Infestors, High Templar). I like the new Phoenix changes, but now with the new-and-improved, mineral line-destroying Oracle, something drastic needs to change to the Phoenix, and +1 range isn’t it.
Dark Shrine
Cost is now 150/150, up from 100/100 and down from 100/250.
Dark Templar are a very chancy unit. When the Dark Shrine cost 100/250, it was a very sizeable investment. Then the cost was reduced to 100/100. With the new, extremely low price, DT rushes became extremely viable again.
Short story even shorter, you could get them far too quickly. Hence the price hike.
Tempest
Now requires Fleet Beacon.
I was never quite sure why the requirements for the Fleet Beacon were removed, as the health and shields did not reflect the Tempest’s previous tier 2 status. A good (absolutely frickin’ necessary) change.
While I’m still not quite sure why Protoss are being given even MORE Tier 3 units, the revert to requiring a Fleet Beacon makes perfect sense, from a damage/health/shields perspective.
Attacks with two weapons. The primary weapon, Kinetic Overload, weapon damage vs. Massive increased from 30 to 50 and hits air units only. The secondary weapon, Resonance Coil, hits ground units, and does not deal bonus damage to massive units.
…Really? 80 damage against Massive flying units? 80 f***ing damage? That’s more than any other unit in the game.
While the ground bonus to massive removal is good, as Thors were even more useless in TvP because of the Tempest, the air attack needs to change.
In PvP, this has all but removed the Colossi from this matchup. While some people may think this is a good thing (and I partially agree, War of the Worlds battles got old quick), there is now going to be even less variety in the matchup with every logical person going Stargate, as the new units and improved old ones will be virtually uncounterable if you yourself do not go Stargate.
In PvT, they make Battlecruiser even more useless. If there was any reason to go for Battlecruiser in this matchup, the reasons are now voided.
In PvZ, the Tempest will absolutely DESTROY Broodlords. They will 3-shot Broodlords. 3-SHOT! The only thing this unit does in the matchup is force even more corruptors, which are a boring unit already. Build time is now 60, down from 75.
What? First they put it back into Tier 3 where it belongs, then they reduce the building time? Where’s the logic in that?
Seriously, the Tempest needs to be changed. A mobile, flying Siege Tank-ranged unit is not what Protoss needs.
Void Ray
Prismatic Beam: No longer charges up. Weapon period decreased from 0.6 to 0.5. No longer does passive +massive damage.
Good. They are trying to bring the Void ray back, but without bringing back Flux Vanes (which made it overpowered. Don’t lie, I’m sure you remember the Beta days with mass Speed Rays being unstoppable.)
Prismatic Alignment (new ability) increases damage to armored units by 6 for 20 seconds, with a 1 minute cooldown. This does not scale with upgrades.
This buff is cool, because it promotes micro and gives the player control over when and where to use the damage boost. With the new ability, Protoss air doesn’t get insta-countered by mass Corruptor anymore, as the new Void Rays demolish them.
Stalker
Blink upgrade research time increased from 140 seconds to 170 seconds.
Mothership Core/Blink Stalker all-ins were very popular against both Protoss and Terran players recently. Hopefully the slight 30 (similar to what they did with Warp Gate) second research time increase will help reduce the chances and potency of such all-ins. All-ins are fun to watch, but it gets repetitive and boring after a while.
Zerg:
+ Show Spoiler +Hydralisk
Speed upgrade now requires Lair tech.
A good change, as Hive-tech speed was just too far away. Now, at Lair tech, a midgame Hydra/Roach army is fast, damaging, and an all-around good unit composition. With Vipers added in at Hive-tech instead of Vipers and Hydra speed added in at Hive-tech, the Zerg player can be more aggressive in the midgame, something that has been severely lacking in recent games.
Mutalisk
Speed increased from 3.75 to 4. Acceleration stays at 3.5.
It will be interesting to see how this change pans out. Against Terran, Mutalisks were never all that good, with Marines shredding them easily. Now, in HotS, Widow Mines are just as, if not more, deadly against a flock of Mutalisks.
Versus Protoss, this is a sizeable difference. With the new health regeneration buff and increased speed, mass Muta in ZvP can no longer be countered by mass Stalker. Protoss players may require a Stargate and Phoenix to kite the Mutalisks effectively.
New passive ability: Mutalisk Regeneration Mutalisk health regeneration rate increased from .2734 to 1.
Faster, flying roaches. Cool.
No, but seriously, this is a massive change. Mutalisks can now tank a sizeable amount of damage before flying away, regenerating, then flying back in for another counterattack, fully healed. In hindsight, this is probably what the Phoenix buff was to counter.
Swarm Host
Health increased from 120 to 160.
A straight up health buff. Now, Swarm Hosts have a whole 33% more health than they previously had. Should make for some interesting positional play, if anybody actually used Swarm Hosts.
Infestor
Fungal Growth: Is now a projectile. Speed of the projectile is 15. Range up to 10.
Kudos to you, Blizzard. You finally made the change that everybody wanted (or did you?). While I’m not entirely sure that mass Infestor’s potency has been reduced by the very speedy projectile and the range increase, I still hope that people start using them like actual spellcasters, rather than a counter to everything.
Infested Terrans no longer gain weapon and armor upgrades. Infested Terran egg health down to 70.
The armor and weapon upgrade nerf is a much bigger deal than the egg health decrease. Now, in ZvZ Roach/Infestor battles, the game won’t be decided by who has more ITs, as they do very little damage to roaches with any sort of armour upgrades.
Ultralisk
Burrow Charge has been removed. Damage changed from 15+20 armored to 35 flat damage.
While I liked Burrow Charge, it was hardly ever used and pro players thought that it was terrible. It looked weird, it screwed with the game mechanics, and it was just an overall iffy ability.
With the damage change, however, the Ultralisk is now viable against all ground types once again. The Ultralisk may be back, but is it completely balanced? Only time will tell.
Viper
Health increased from 120 to 150.
Another straight up health buff. While I agree that Vipers were very easy to kill before, I’m not sure how much health this flying caster should actually have. It’s spells are purely positional, meaning that the Viper is useless by itself.
If you're looking for a tl;dr version, you are sorely out of luck. I'd like to hear other people's thoughts and opinion on the points I've brought up, along with the overall effectiveness of the patches and what you guys would like to see before the beta is up and gone. |
| | Friends will help you move. Best friends will help you move the bodies. |
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theException Canada. December 19 2012 08:12. Posts 23 | Profile # |
I like how you are not making a big deal of the Infestor buff in patch 10. There was no way in hell it could be used in the state it was in and the buff was almost perfect imo (longer range actually means other races have more time to dodge it). I am sure Bliz can change it slightly if it was too much or not enough.
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| justinpal United States. December 19 2012 08:43. Posts 3233 | Profile # | |
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| HardlyNever United States. December 19 2012 09:02. Posts 892 | Profile Blog # |
The views are down because that is the nature of the video game industry. People get bored with things and move on, and that is even more salient when talking about video games. That is just the nature of the beast. I think it has little to nothing to do with the actual game, except that starcraft has much less broad appeal compared to F2P games like LoL and soon to be Dota 2.
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| TheWarWaffle Canada. December 19 2012 15:35. Posts 2 | Profile # |
On December 19 2012 08:43 justinpal wrote: Meh, I disagree.
Pray tell why you disagree.
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| | Friends will help you move. Best friends will help you move the bodies. |
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xPabt December 19 2012 15:52. Posts 226 | Profile # |
| Vikings having armor is not that helpful because the main things doing damage to them are fungal and storm. Vikings are units that need to snipe shit as fast as possible. Raven not having splash damage really kills Raven+BC late game vs Zerg. |
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| SheaR619 United States. December 19 2012 16:45. Posts 1556 | Profile # |
You are wrong in so many ways as listed above. Regarding the widowmine, many people can agree that the widowmine start to lose it effectiveness going to the mid game and then when it get late game they are pretty bad. This combine with the nerf to make widowmine weaker, widowmine will be almost none existences in TvP. Making this change a rather bad one imo because zerg were already starting to figure out how to deal with mine. Now they just get detection and 1-A roaches through mine. This also make the decrease burrow time upgrade useless because no one will be going mine late game because they are not worth the supply before and even worst now.
EDIT: also the person above me is spot on why the armor change does very little for mech. Last edit: 2012-12-19 16:47:11 |
| | I may not be the best, but i will be some day... |
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| Alex1Sun December 19 2012 20:42. Posts 413 | Profile Blog # |
I really like where Blizzard is going with the overall game design. They are making more units useful, they are reforming the gameplay to make it more micro- and position-oriented etc. The particular numbers can be changed to correct the balance (quite likely it is not well balanced now), but the overall design direction is great.
I would be happy to see even more emphasis on micro- and position-oriented play, i.e. buff tanks in siege mode, make colossus more dependent on good micro etc. But even in its current state HoTS looks great compared to WoL. I am very satisfied with patches 8-10.Last edit: 2012-12-19 20:47:52 |
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| Alex1Sun December 19 2012 20:47. Posts 413 | Profile Blog # |
On December 19 2012 16:45 SheaR619 wrote: You are wrong in so many ways as listed above. Regarding the widowmine, many people can agree that the widowmine start to lose it effectiveness going to the mid game and then when it get late game they are pretty bad. This combine with the nerf to make widowmine weaker, widowmine will be almost none existences in TvP. Making this change a rather bad one imo because zerg were already starting to figure out how to deal with mine. Now they just get detection and 1-A roaches through mine. This also make the decrease burrow time upgrade useless because no one will be going mine late game because they are not worth the supply before and even worst now.
Let's wait and see I guess. Widow mine users are also learning how to use them better. Numbers can always be changed if widow mines appear to be too weak. What is important is how the widow mine is designed. I like the current version even if it's not very useful against protoss. There are however other options. For example, what do you think about making widow-mine attack stronger vs ground and weaker vs air?Last edit: 2012-12-19 20:49:56 |
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| Hider Denmark. December 19 2012 20:50. Posts 3167 | Profile Blog # |
On December 19 2012 09:02 HardlyNever wrote: The views are down because that is the nature of the video game industry. People get bored with things and move on, and that is even more salient when talking about video games. That is just the nature of the beast. I think it has little to nothing to do with the actual game, except that starcraft has much less broad appeal compared to F2P games like LoL and soon to be Dota 2.
This is mostly true. I think people overstates the effect the winfestors had had on hte game in terms of viewerships. Also, we could already see that the amount of active players began declining 1½ year ago, and this was probably a leading indicator for viewerships. However, Blizzard could increase the longevity of the game by changing its business model (to a model where they can monetize the game better). |
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| Hider Denmark. December 19 2012 20:51. Posts 3167 | Profile Blog # |
On December 19 2012 20:47 Alex1Sun wrote: Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 16:45 SheaR619 wrote: You are wrong in so many ways as listed above. Regarding the widowmine, many people can agree that the widowmine start to lose it effectiveness going to the mid game and then when it get late game they are pretty bad. This combine with the nerf to make widowmine weaker, widowmine will be almost none existences in TvP. Making this change a rather bad one imo because zerg were already starting to figure out how to deal with mine. Now they just get detection and 1-A roaches through mine. This also make the decrease burrow time upgrade useless because no one will be going mine late game because they are not worth the supply before and even worst now.
Let's wait and see I guess. Widow mine users are also learning how to use them better. Numbers can always be changed if widow mines appear to be too weak. What is important is how the widow mine is designed. I like the current version even if it's not very useful against protoss. There are however other options. For example, what do you think about making widow-mine attack stronger vs ground and weaker vs air?
You do realize that widow mines are completely useless vs toss right now? Also why can't you use the same argument regarding protoss? Toss's could learn to play against the widow mine by microing moreship core and observer better. |
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| agahamsorr0w Netherlands. December 19 2012 21:25. Posts 264 | Profile # |
| mutas not good vs terran? u kidding right? they have been the standard for almost a year since release of wol and are still being used. The only reason zergs use infestors is that they are more easy to use because you only need to defend. |
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| Alex1Sun December 19 2012 22:34. Posts 413 | Profile Blog # |
On December 19 2012 20:51 Hider wrote: Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 20:47 Alex1Sun wrote: On December 19 2012 16:45 SheaR619 wrote: You are wrong in so many ways as listed above. Regarding the widowmine, many people can agree that the widowmine start to lose it effectiveness going to the mid game and then when it get late game they are pretty bad. This combine with the nerf to make widowmine weaker, widowmine will be almost none existences in TvP. Making this change a rather bad one imo because zerg were already starting to figure out how to deal with mine. Now they just get detection and 1-A roaches through mine. This also make the decrease burrow time upgrade useless because no one will be going mine late game because they are not worth the supply before and even worst now.
Let's wait and see I guess. Widow mine users are also learning how to use them better. Numbers can always be changed if widow mines appear to be too weak. What is important is how the widow mine is designed. I like the current version even if it's not very useful against protoss. There are however other options. For example, what do you think about making widow-mine attack stronger vs ground and weaker vs air?
You do realize that widow mines are completely useless vs toss right now? Also why can't you use the same argument regarding protoss? Toss's could learn to play against the widow mine by microing moreship core and observer better.
I would rather prefer widow mines not shutting down drop and banshee play than widow mines useful against protoss. Not every unit has to be useful in every match up. Microing moreship core and observer vs widow mines is rather simple anyway because of difference in ranges and not a big issue in high level games regardless of how much damage widow mine does. Alternatively make a widow mine do more damage to ground, so that it still kills zealots/stalkers but doesn't oneshoot banshees/dropships.Last edit: 2012-12-19 22:38:43 |
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| Hider Denmark. December 19 2012 22:38. Posts 3167 | Profile Blog # |
On December 19 2012 22:34 Alex1Sun wrote: Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 20:51 Hider wrote: On December 19 2012 20:47 Alex1Sun wrote: On December 19 2012 16:45 SheaR619 wrote: You are wrong in so many ways as listed above. Regarding the widowmine, many people can agree that the widowmine start to lose it effectiveness going to the mid game and then when it get late game they are pretty bad. This combine with the nerf to make widowmine weaker, widowmine will be almost none existences in TvP. Making this change a rather bad one imo because zerg were already starting to figure out how to deal with mine. Now they just get detection and 1-A roaches through mine. This also make the decrease burrow time upgrade useless because no one will be going mine late game because they are not worth the supply before and even worst now.
Let's wait and see I guess. Widow mine users are also learning how to use them better. Numbers can always be changed if widow mines appear to be too weak. What is important is how the widow mine is designed. I like the current version even if it's not very useful against protoss. There are however other options. For example, what do you think about making widow-mine attack stronger vs ground and weaker vs air?
You do realize that widow mines are completely useless vs toss right now? Also why can't you use the same argument regarding protoss? Toss's could learn to play against the widow mine by microing moreship core and observer better.
I would rather prefer widow mines not shutting down drop and banshee play than widow mines useful against protoss. Not every unit has to be useful in every match up. Microing moreship core and observer vs widow mines is rather simple anyway and not a big issue in high level games regardless of how much damage widow mine does.
Fine; remove anti air and make it 1 supply. Or make this change and combine it with 1 supply.
Blizzards changes are retarded. They really need to make mech viable vs toss, and for some reason they just choose to nerf it patch after patch. |
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| Morton United States. December 19 2012 22:39. Posts 87 | Profile # |
This seems suspiciously like that destiny thread from a month or so back >.>
honestly the viewers are WAY up since the #8 and #9 patches (remember right after the warhound was removed, HOTS never got above like 600 viewers |
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| DemigodcelpH United States. December 19 2012 22:56. Posts 878 | Profile # |
You're not really pointing out any of the major issues.
With Hydra speed at lair now and Muta buffs along with Protoss being buffed at every stage of the game (Protoss is the strongest HotS race according to the battle.net communuty) it's to my understanding that these two races don't have any major issues as of now. On the other-hand 50% of the Terran race is nonviable. Mech isn't viable in either TvP or TvZ (even Idra says you can't mech because of the Viper), the tank is still garbage and can't even kill a Zergling in 1 hit (the tank is getting a lot of emphasis because it's the glue that holds mech together, and the one of the best designed units in the game that NEEDS to be a threat for the sake of more interesting games), and Fungal got buffed to an arguably better state than it was in WoL despite Mutalisks and Hydralisks receiving drastic buffs.
Patch #8 was a step in the right direction which is why the community cried tears of joy when it was released (it even included the god-tier hidden change of giving Carriers BW micro back), though patches #9 and #10 were very very poor. You grouped the three patches together, but made no distinction of this.Last edit: 2012-12-19 22:59:52 |
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| Mahanaim Korea (South). December 19 2012 23:40. Posts 247 | Profile # |
Interesting post, let's get more constructive feedback coming  |
| | Starcraft 2 & Mabinogi for life! Go SKT1! |
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| Seiniyta Belgium. December 19 2012 23:53. Posts 1462 | Profile # |
| I just would like the Widow Mine to have an upgrade at the tech lab or armory where you can research the ability to shoot up. |
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| nucleo December 20 2012 00:27. Posts 227 | Profile # |
On December 19 2012 08:12 theException wrote: I like how you are not making a big deal of the Infestor buff in patch 10. There was no way in hell it could be used in the state it was in and the buff was almost perfect imo (longer range actually means other races have more time to dodge it). I am sure Bliz can change it slightly if it was too much or not enough.
with the speed buff they give less time to dodge it.
I really want to watch some streams of pros before i make up my mind but these changes seem way too harsh on terran imoLast edit: 2012-12-20 00:36:35 |
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| Treehead December 20 2012 00:42. Posts 998 | Profile Blog # |
It's very difficult to take you seriously when you say things like this:
On December 19 2012 07:54 TheWarWaffle wrote:
Thor
250mm Strike Cannons has been removed. The Thor can now switch between two modes: High-Impact Payload and Explosive Payload. The mode shift takes 4 seconds. When in High-Impact Payload mode, the Thor switches to a different anti-air gun (250mm Punisher Cannons) that has 10 range and deals 24 flat damage.
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With the new anti-air mode, suddenly Mech has a soft-counter to air. With an impressive 10 range and a steady 24 damage per shot that is not diminished by any specific unit type, the Thor has finally become the heavy support unit that Mech needed: something that can deal with both ground and air equally. While I still believe that it needs more testing, I approve of this change wholeheartedly.
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If the Raven now has Yamato Cannon, why would you even build Battlecruisers now?
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Yes, because Hellbats need an even larger AOE attack that melts Zerglings and Zealots. Not entirely sure why this was added, other than to dissuade the other races to go mass tier 1 against Mech and win.
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Oracle
Pulsar Beam Now called “Activate Pulsar Beam” and “Deactivate Pulsar Beam”. Pulsar Beam activation now costs 25 energy. While active, Pulsar Beam now drains 2 energy per second. Weapon deals 15+10 light. Weapon period changed to 0.86, down from 1. Weapon range reduced to 4.
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I think it’s strange that they gave a previously non-combat spellcaster one of the most damaging spells in the game.
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Dark Templar are a very chancy unit. When the Dark Shrine cost 100/250, it was a very sizeable investment. Then the cost was reduced to 100/100. With the new, extremely low price, DT rushes became extremely viable again.
Short story even shorter, you could get them far too quickly. Hence the price hike.
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Tempest
…Really? 80 damage against Massive flying units? 80 f***ing damage? That’s more than any other unit in the game.
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In PvP, this has all but removed the Colossi from this matchup. While some people may think this is a good thing (and I partially agree, War of the Worlds battles got old quick), there is now going to be even less variety in the matchup with every logical person going Stargate, as the new units and improved old ones will be virtually uncounterable if you yourself do not go Stargate.
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Void Ray
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Flux Vanes (which made it overpowered. Don’t lie, I’m sure you remember the Beta days with mass Speed Rays being unstoppable.)
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All-ins are fun to watch
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With the new health regeneration buff and increased speed, mass Muta in ZvP can no longer be countered by mass Stalker.
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[still regarding the muta] Faster, flying roaches. Cool.
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Some quick facts:
1. The new Thor attack does 12 dps to air (and is not as affected by armor). The old attack did 8 dps(and splashed). In what world is a 300/200 unit with 400 health and a 12 dps air attack any kind of "counter" to air? 3 stalkers have more health, the same supply cost, less gas cost and about the same relative cost (375/150), nearly double the dps (more than double against armored types), the same supply and are less gas heavy. Oh yeah, and they are one of the most mobile units in the game.
2. No one builds BCs just for Yamato. They have 3 armor, high health and very high dps. You'll notice that Ravens do not so much have this.
3. Blizzard said in one of their blogs that the longer hellbat range was intended to make the hellbat more useful against ranged units. You'll notice that by lengthening the cone of damage, it doesn't actually change how it functions against units which are already in melee range (like zealots and lings).
4. The Oracle's 17 dps (29 against light) attack is far from "the most damaging spell in the game". If you assume that the Oracle is not attacked, that it has ample targets not to move, and that it does so for 25 seconds, it can expend 75 energy to do 425 damage (725 if all targets are light). Ever seen bio standing in storms without microing away? Because if said storm continually hit only 6 targets, it did more damage. As it's attack goes, it's little more than in line with the banshee's dps - considering it needs to spend energy to attack. And even then, I could claim that cloak gives a banshee more than 50 seconds of uninterrupted dps if you don't have detection - making it the most damaging spell in the game. Or what about infested terran? 3 of them also cost 75 energy - and do 837 damage over 30 seconds when attacking continuously. The "spell" is really just enabling an attack - which does deal high dps, but not an unprecedented amount given its gas cost.
5. The Carrier does 80 (5x2 damage per interceptor, 8 interceptors) burst damage without upgrades, and gains +16 damage per upgrade (double what the Tempest gets per upgrade). Yet, its dps is a joke. Why? High delay. The Tempest has an even higher delay. People still use Colossi in PvP, and TC/blink remains a strong tech path against stargate at all points of a game. Your pvp analysis regarding the Tempest is really just horribly wrong.
6. You might have hated it, but Flux Vanes never won tournaments.
7. Allins are not fun to watch.
8. Stalkers still counter mutas. They still only die to mutas when they don't blink or micro properly. The health regen and speed increase will be hard to deal with, but in a straight up fight, mutas are really, really bad. I think the verdict is still out on how well they'll be able to force fights. It will depend more on how the maps look long term than anything else.
9. Mutas are nothing like roaches. A roach is something protoss has problems with because they have high health, high damage and are cheap to make. A muta has low health, low damage, is expensive to make, but is fast. A roach is a unit that blows protoss units out of the water for cost if it can get a straight fight at a good angle. A muta is a unit that never wants to fight anything at any angle, and is almost forced to retreat at the first sign of trouble. |
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