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| MeaNySC2 Korea (South). December 29 2012 12:47. Posts 37 | Profile Blog # |
1. The early builds - All in fest. (Open season 1 ~ Open season 3)
The match up of the early days was purely 1 base. The player who expanded often received punishment. 3 gate 1 robo, 3 gate 1 starport, and dt builds were often used. 4 gate was especially the strongest.
At the time warp gate research time was 140 compared to the now 160 seconds, leading to many 1 rax expanding terrans to lose. Hence terrans were contemplating on how to lead the games to macro games.
Open season 3 finals between MC and Rain showed a lot. The build orders of open season 3 weren't very generalizable because they needed to be as atypical as possible to catch the opponent off guard.
1.2. Marauder imbalanced?
Many of the players at the time had played broodwar. The standard unit of broodwar in TvP was dragoon, and it was about how one stacks the dragoon count while using it wisely. Dragoon of broodwar was a flexible unit.
Hence protoss players were producing a lot of stalkers. Similarly to broodwar, protoss players tried to find secure position through getting a lot of stalkers. However, the existence of marauder gave the players tragedy. Stimmed marauders with concussive shell melted the stalkers. Furthermore, the players who played sc2 with purely gateway units just like they would in broodwar were often crushed by marine marauder medivac.
At the time the imbalance claims on marauder were great, although now they only seem funny.
1.3. Unconditionally colossus
When protoss first appeared, there were many praises on the colossus. In fact, colossus was the only unit that could be used in TvP. Archons and zealots with speed upgrade hit by concussive shell were very slow, allowing these units to be kited very efficiently. Hence, in the early days, the metagame was based on holding attacks using sentries and stalkers to build colossus count.
2. MKP's fast expansion
Just as there was MVP's fast expansion in TvZ, MKP's fast expansion in TvP brought sensation to the match up. Previously, it was close to impossible to defend warp gate rush with fast expansion. However, MKP defended MC's 4gate by going 4rax after expansion in Zelnaga Cavern. This meant that after expanding, it's possible to defend the protoss rushes and hit them back with much better economy.
3. San - Discovery of High Templars (early 2011)
High Templars were neglected in the early days. Compared to broodwar, storm of sc2 had a lot smaller aoe as well as lower damage. Archons were very useful either. However, there was a progamer that realized the usefulness of khaydarin amulet and show how storms were used as soon as high templars were summoned. It was San.
San became popular for showing that he can defend any form of attack with just pylons cannons and high templars. A lot of games were produced by San only to receive a nerf with the removal of khaydarin amulet.
At the time Ghost's EMP removed all energy. However, with the removal of khaydarin amulet, EMP was also nerfed to only remove 100 energy.
4. 4gate nerf. 1/1/1. Prime's 2rax (2011 may~september)
The PvP at the time was very simple; who can 4gate better. Warp gate's research time was only 140 seconds and sentry production time was 42seconds compared to the now 37 seconds. Hence, it was pretty much impossible to defend 4gate without 4gating. Therefore, nerf to warp gate research time was given and the pylon area was reduced to 6.5 from 7.5.
However, as a result of this, 1/1/1 prevails. Before, Terrans had to be careful about 4gate when going 1/1/1. There could not be a good timing with 1/1/1 after making 2 bunkers to prevent 4gate. But, after the nerf to warp gate, 1 bunker was enough to defend anything, making cloaked banshee into marine tank push become extremely viable.
The TvP at this sate was very simple. If you want to win, just 1/1/1. If you want to practice macro and have fun, just 1 rax fast expansion. The winrate of TvP in GSL was over 70%. This was when there were 20 Terrans in Code S and 4 Terrans in WCG Korea.
1/1/1 was too strong to the point that protoss still could not defend it even if they knew it was coming. It is almost like PvZ immortal all in, where it is pretty much impossible to defend when the protoss makes no mistake in forcefielding.
There was another strategy that made life difficult for protoss. It was MakaPrime's 2rax. The player that could use this the best was probably Polt. reactor first into techlab 2rax pressure was very strong but did not slow the expansion all that much. Hence, it was one of the most powerful builds at the time, giving a lot of stress to protoss players.
Around this time, there was a nerf given to Terran with Archon becoming massive unit and its range increasing from 2 to 3.
5. Immortal rage patch (2011 september)
As the balance still tilts towards Terran, there was another patch given. The immortal's range was increased from 5 to 6. At the time the users thought it wasn't a big deal. However, this patch brought the end to 1/1/1 as the immortals started to be able to hit tanks. Although 1/1/1 still is a strong all in, it is dramatically weakened as a result of this patch.
6. EMP aoe nerf (2011 november)
Actually, there were still a lot of problems in the balance of TvP. Although early-mid game was strong for the Terran, even the late game wasn't too difficult for Terran due to the fact that EMPs could completely remove the shields of protoss army. Hence, the match up at the time for 200 vs 200 army was all about who can feedback/emp better. Nowadays it's more common to see ghosts trying to snipe HT. But before, needless to use snipe, ghosts really only used emp. So the nerf was given, reducing aoe of EMP almost by half.
As a result of this patch, there was a rediscovery of zealot + archon upgrade protoss, giving much strength to protoss and forcing terran players to micro snipe against HTs
7. 1gate expansion. upgrade protoss. zealot+archon rediscovery (late 2011 ~ early 2012)
After the immortal patch, a new build emerges. It's 1gate expansion. Although this build was used a lot in the past as well, it was weak against 1/1/1 and many other pressure builds. Protoss started to discover 1gate expansion into 3gates, making it the standard build now.
Also, Creator brings in the upgrade protoss, leading the build to be 1gate expansion -> 3gate -> robotics -> defend with 2~3 immortals -> double forge.
At the time TvP wasn't focused on upgrades. They were only pressed when they had some freedom. However, Creator shows that he could defend pushes with 2~3 immortals and get chronoboosted double forge, chargelot and archons to crush the opponent. Zealots with upgrade that were 2 levels higher than marines and marauders did not die and the damage dealt by archons were massive.
Protoss have begun to fight back the Terrans. A buff to upgrades for protoss even further strengthens their metagame at the time.
8. Terran's development. double medivac (late 2011~ early 2012)
It wasn't just protoss that was researching better ways to conduct gameplays. Terrans have also developed ways to hit sharp timing with 2 medivacs. 1 rax expansion into double medivacs with stim, combat shield and +1 upgrade led to many wins for Terrans
9. Parting's 1 forge + twilight council zealot templar. Upgrade Terran (mid 2012)
Upgrade toss was very strong, but there was one weakness, which was to be extremely defensive. By going for expensive double upgrade and immortals, Protoss could not deal pressure to Terran. Hence, Terran's triple expansion into double ebay was very strong against this. Also, because they have few stalker count, 2 medivac drop into multi prong harassment was very detrimental.
This was when Parting brings another metagame. He brought the build, 1 gate expansion -> 3gates -> robotics -> 1forge, twilight council -> no immortal high templar archive -> 2~3 high templars.
The reason why this build is viable is because one less forge allows twilight council to be built, whereas the resource needed for immortal is used to get zealots and high templars. From the robotics, he produced large number of observers to spread throughout the map. Also, the 2~3 high templar timing was equal the timing of double medivac, leading them to feedback the medivac and turn into archon to defend the mmm push.
The recommended match is parting vs mkp in gstl. This build requires perfect decision in micro. Therefore, while it is strong, it could lead to vulnerability.
10. Terran vs Protoss development (present)
There used to be claims that late game becomes difficult for Terran. However, there were many recent games where late game ghosts + vikings led to victories. Also, Rain has showed the use of warp prism, harassing Terran to its maximum potential.
There is no longer the timing of 25 minutes. The reason is because there is +3 attack cloaked ghost 22 minute timing. The reason why Terran's resources lack a lot in 25minutes is because they don't run 4th and 5th expansion. However, recently there are many builds were 4th and 5th expansion run smoothly. Perhaps, there is still room for development in TvP.Last edit: 2012-12-29 14:01:27 |
| | GM Korean Terran FUNTIME twitch.tv/meanysc2 youtube.com/meanytv |
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| Synystyr United States. December 29 2012 12:55. Posts 1415 | Profile Blog # |
This is pretty cool 
I've been looking forward to the development of Sky Terran styles since beta. Perhaps not as a standard style, but it definitely has its niche and I really wish it was explored more. |
| | Sky Terran TvP V2.0: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355839 |
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| Aveng3r United States. December 29 2012 13:39. Posts 667 | Profile # |
| was there an era of mech being tested? |
| | Grandmaster starcraft2 bad manner-er and master league NA terran |
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| Wingblade United States. December 29 2012 13:51. Posts 832 | Profile # |
Currently, PvT is my favorite WoL matchup, both to play and to watch. Cool history guide, I like following the history of my favorite matchup
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| | "Please Protoss student, recite the alphabet." "A." PartinG and Squirtle together forever in my heart. |
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| RyuuZer0 Australia. December 29 2012 13:56. Posts 27 | Profile # |
On December 29 2012 12:47 MeaNySC2 wrote:
Also, Curious brings in the upgrade protoss, leading the build to be 1gate expansion -> 3gate -> robotics -> defend with 2~3 immortals -> double forge.
Did you mean Creator? |
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| MeaNySC2 Korea (South). December 29 2012 14:01. Posts 37 | Profile Blog # |
On December 29 2012 13:56 RyuuZer0 wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 12:47 MeaNySC2 wrote:
Also, Curious brings in the upgrade protoss, leading the build to be 1gate expansion -> 3gate -> robotics -> defend with 2~3 immortals -> double forge.
Did you mean Creator?
Oops yep fixed! thanks |
| | GM Korean Terran FUNTIME twitch.tv/meanysc2 youtube.com/meanytv |
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| XXXSmOke United States. December 29 2012 14:04. Posts 1132 | Profile Blog # |
There was a couple things you missed IMO.
We had a very very short mech splurge Late 2010-Early 2011
Dual forge's intial creation, spring 2011. That one was crazy. One month it was all about 0/0'0 deathballs charging. Then within no time suddenly every P had massive upgrades and I remember being like WTF! I have way more supply and I cant ouch those zeals.
And you missed the hilarious days of proxy gateway.
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| ZeroTalent United States. December 29 2012 14:19. Posts 297 | Profile # |
On December 29 2012 12:47 MeaNySC2 wrote:
10. Terran vs Protoss development (present)
There used to be claims that late game becomes difficult for Terran. However, there were many recent games where late game ghosts + vikings led to victories. Also, Rain has showed the use of warp prism, harassing Terran to its maximum potential.
There is no longer the timing of 25 minutes. The reason is because there is +3 attack cloaked ghost 22 minute timing. The reason why Terran's resources lack a lot in 25minutes is because they don't run 4th and 5th expansion. However, recently there are many builds were 4th and 5th expansion run smoothly. Perhaps, there is still room for development in TvP.
Now that the playhem dailies are over, it would be useful to have another large set of high level replays for analysis.
I want to believe that the lategame is moving towards balance. More Terran players are learning to fight in the lategame. As storm/zealot/archon has become more popular, people are learning to use more marines and fewer marauders both in the early game and the lategame. People are even finding ways to make mech or sky terran viable, at least on certain maps, all of which is geared towards the lategame. |
| | Can we get an official definition of "all-in"? Please? |
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| Dark.EX United States. December 29 2012 14:25. Posts 1515 | Profile Blog # |
Nice write-up!
However, the 1 Barracks FE into 2 Medivac +1 Stim/Shields push was around for longer than just late 2011-early 2012. It just became more popular around that time.
On December 29 2012 14:19 ZeroTalent wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 12:47 MeaNySC2 wrote:
10. Terran vs Protoss development (present)
There used to be claims that late game becomes difficult for Terran. However, there were many recent games where late game ghosts + vikings led to victories. Also, Rain has showed the use of warp prism, harassing Terran to its maximum potential.
There is no longer the timing of 25 minutes. The reason is because there is +3 attack cloaked ghost 22 minute timing. The reason why Terran's resources lack a lot in 25minutes is because they don't run 4th and 5th expansion. However, recently there are many builds were 4th and 5th expansion run smoothly. Perhaps, there is still room for development in TvP.
Now that the playhem dailies are over, it would be useful to have another large set of high level replays for analysis. I want to believe that the lategame is moving towards balance. More Terran players are learning to fight in the lategame. As storm/zealot/archon has become more popular, people are learning to use more marines and fewer marauders both in the early game and the lategame. People are even finding ways to make mech or sky terran viable, at least on certain maps, all of which is geared towards the lategame.
I agree about the Bio part- not so much about the Sky/Mech part. There are too many holes in Terran's army and strategy for those to be viable IMO.Last edit: 2012-12-29 14:27:18 |
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| Maxilicious December 29 2012 15:33. Posts 138 | Profile # |
Nicely written.
I know this may sound a little too much, but this could be even better if the write up is more in-depth by providing more details.
Certainly, adding pictures will improve it further.
=) |
| | http://terrancraft.wordpress.com/ |
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 dynwar7 December 29 2012 17:22. Posts 1955 | Profile # |
| I love your histories, where is the TvT now? |
| | Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves.... |
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| Iron_ United States. December 29 2012 18:11. Posts 320 | Profile # |
There was a really small window of Terran mech getting some play. The immortal buff was part of the reason that went the way of the Dodo, but the other reason was the maps. Part of the mech opening strength was the open naturals and running around with Hellions. Now all maps have the choke point at the natural so hellion run ins only work if the toss is bad with FF, and even then they don't do much.
One thing that has always been the case, is the Toss late game units change the face of the battle completely, while the Terran have no such units. The thor was getting some play for a bit, but after about 3 games of Thorzain using them well, Blizzard nerfed them back into the ground by giving them energy back. Battlecrusers are only good for a laugh. Sadly, in HOTS this only gets pushed further forward, because instead of addressing this, they just made medivacs better. So it seems like the play styles will remain exactly the same. |
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| xTrim December 31 2012 12:32. Posts 471 | Profile # |
While it is true terrans are learning to fight deathballs and such, there's still the glaring issue where one defeat by terran is 95% of the time GG. i dont mean to whine really because we have mules so we "should" have a bigger army... I just dont like how its way more volatile on terran side than it is on protoss side...
Moreover, i believe the match up is balanced, even on the lategame... I have been able to defeat deathball after deathball.... and yet i may lose to some funky midgame 2 colossi, chargelot push and such... so its not anymore like "terran mid game is strong toss late game is strong"... learn to deal with the late game and respect the midgame that can surprise u!!! |
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| Hilo Estonia. December 31 2012 22:36. Posts 114 | Profile # |
| If SC2 has taught you anything , then it is that metagame always changes and there are ALWAYS new builds. |
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| BoB_KiLLeR Spain. December 31 2012 22:50. Posts 508 | Profile # |
| I think you can put between 3-4 Adelscotts 2:0 victory against IMMvp which changed the metagame drasticly. For this moment Protoss players went for double forge chargezealots only. |
| | "I think other protoss play WoL, but I play HotS so I can beat terran" - MC |
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| nucLeaRTV Romania. January 01 2013 00:04. Posts 720 | Profile # |
| Immortal *rage* patch. Is that intended? :D |
| | "Having your own haters means you are famous" |
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| MrSunshine Sweden. January 01 2013 00:04. Posts 56 | Profile # |
Reading OP was a nice stroll down memory lane. Thank you.
On December 29 2012 12:47 MeaNySC2 wrote:
5. Immortal rage patch (2011 september)
...
Oh, I raged alot at the immortal after the patch ^^
On December 29 2012 12:47 MeaNySC2 wrote:
8. Terran's development. double medivac (late 2011~ early 2012)
It wasn't just protoss that was researching better ways to conduct gameplays. Terrans have also developed ways to hit sharp timing with 2 medivacs. 1 rax expansion into double medivacs with stim, combat shield and +1 upgrade led to many wins for Terrans
I definetly remember this very well. I stole this build from ST_Bomber when he used to stream alot. After a while Day9 also made a daily about the build which helped me refine it. It was a very good build with the options of going either early 3rd CC or an early extra 2rax (into 5rax) aggression.
EDIT: Not so sure about the timeframe (late 2011~ early 2012)..... It was probably earlier than that.Last edit: 2013-01-01 00:07:07 |
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| Punic United States. January 01 2013 00:05. Posts 147 | Profile Blog # |
Cheapest upgrades in the game with the ability to get them out the fastest? You cant explain that......
I think sea's use of mech in the match up deserves some mention |
| | "Where is the chapstick?" - Stephano |
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| monk United States. January 01 2013 00:14. Posts 6984 | Profile Blog # |
I would have added, off the top of my head:
Voidray all-in stage
Hongun/Adellscott double forge gateway builds
MC's gateway all-in stage
Thorzain's upgrades
various marine mech pushes stage
steady rise of average ghost count
1 rax into triple CC stage
Parting's templar revolution
Parting's 3 Nexus builds
Nexus first stage
Nexus first with cannons stage
More in-depth about 2 medivac pushes
Hellion drop build popularity
1 Colossi into storm stage
SCV train pull stageLast edit: 2013-01-01 00:29:17 |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. January 01 2013 00:15. Posts 1249 | Profile # |
| Great history guide, something for liquipedia for sure imo. Would be good to add vods of each build or iconic games in the time periods, maybe we can help provide these? Here is one of Polt's 2 rax: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65708 |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
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