| samuelspark January 04 2013 13:01. Posts 18 | Profile # |
Hello everyone, I am SC2Samuel of Team SCA. I am an amateur caster and analyst. My first post on TL is a build order that I have not tested much and would appreciate your feedback/testing on. Keep in mind, if you actually try out this build, you'll probably have a better idea of the build than just reading about it.
The Idea
+ Show Spoiler +Abuse the TvP metagame of marine heavy 10 minute medivac pushes and push out with a marauder heavy force w/ combat shields and shells at 7 minutes to force gateway units, bait forcefields, and cause economic damage.
The Why
+ Show Spoiler +Most PvT builds rely on preparing for the 10 minute push by having 1-2 collosi, storm, or chargelots. These builds usually open 3 gate -> AOE tech, and usually only barely have the sufficient research/units finished right before the Terran attacks. Fact is, maruaders with shells are amazing, able to destory any gateway unit, and as well as collosi with stim and tanking storms.
The Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +1rax fe
double gas
(constant scv production)
double rax
tech lab (constant marauder production)
combat shields
tech lab
reactor
concussive shells
constant marine/marauder production
move out at 7:00
build
The Execution + Tips
+ Show Spoiler +Clearing watchtowers with the first marauder is a good idea
Try not to get FF'ed and army split
Try to retain units for followup push
You have concussive shells. Use it.
The Followup
+ Show Spoiler +Start stim when you leave
Start factory for medivacs at around 10 minutes
Get 3rd gas/4th gas
Double engineering bay when affordable
Don't forget third base
Once again, thank you for reading my first post on TL. As always, feedback, testing appreciated. I hope to make this into a real guide one day.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +Last edit: 2013-01-04 21:55:05 |
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| gobbledydook Australia. January 04 2013 13:05. Posts 551 | Profile # |
The reason why there are only just enough units to hold the 10 minute medivac timing is because medivacs heal.
Without the medivacs, your force is much less powerful than you imagine it would be and zealot/sentry which Protoss should have will just rip it apart. |
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| Jockmcplop United Kingdom. January 04 2013 13:08. Posts 1192 | Profile # |
I just tried it for the first time on ladder, and the win it gave me got me promoted from gold to platinum for the first time ever. I know its not particularly useful feedback, and i executed the build pretty poorly because microing and macroing at the same time is not something i can actually do at all, but for what its worth thanks 
edit for feedback:
It obviously works pretty well against a protoss going for some sort of early expand into fast templar build, which is what my opponent was doing. It still took until after i actually had stim to finish him off, but templar has always been my vulnerability because of my poor micro. The marauders help alot so anyone in lower leagues who struggles with fast templar, this build is perfect.
On the negative side i found the build to be slightly off in places. At some points i couldn't afford to make marauders, and things didn't seem to align every well, but i've only tried it a few times. I also had to halt SCV production at one point to get the combat shield (i think).
One more thing, those replays you included are not helpful, as the execution of the build was pretty bad (i know it sounds a bit rich coming from a lower level player than you). In the one i watched - the second build - you didn't have enough units to move out near 7:00.Last edit: 2013-01-04 13:31:35 |
| | would you mind taking that elephant out of my fridge? |
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| KawaiiRice United States. January 04 2013 13:08. Posts 2818 | Profile Blog # |
| once the P sees marauder, chronos out an immortal (assuming 1g fe 3g robo) and makes zealots/uses force field you are extremely behind, not to mention this build sounds horribly inefficient. |
| | っ( ≧▽≦)/ Playing T and Z~ \(≧ω≦ ) || @MYiKawaiiRice |
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| vayuu Canada. January 04 2013 15:13. Posts 31 | Profile # |
I tried it vs the ai have and have some general things:
i think would work if:
toss goes for >2 stalkers, and skimps on sentries
and/or you only send the marines to clear the towers so the toss doesn't see the marauders, however this delays the push
toss was greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedy
More specific things:
double gas at 19 is too much, i can't spend the gas nor can i make a bunker,2 rax and an orbital from my nat without halting scv production. If i only made 1 marine this might be possible.
The gas has to be staggered
the reactor is not really gonna help out for the push, you can't produce from 3 rax with addons while making scvs anyways
my sheer number of units doesn't seem that much, though with impeccable micro + scouting denial it could be effective
If remotely scouted just sentries and zealots would hold this off as long as the toss isn't retarded with FF
would die to two base gateway timing
at worse toss can run their probes up and FF the ramp till they got enough stuff and you can't reinforce
you must do significant damage or lose since your follow up push with medivacs are so delayed.Last edit: 2013-01-04 16:08:03 |
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| Jombozeus China. January 04 2013 15:46. Posts 1001 | Profile Blog # |
The problem with these pushes without stim and medivac is that if you do do damage its not crippling because you can never kill the nexus in time and the probes will run.
If you dont do any damage you are too behind and almost autolose the game. |
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| BerthaG France. January 04 2013 16:11. Posts 72 | Profile # |
| I really don't understand, before warp gate the T is upper P when finnished, the P can put pressure on T untill stim and medival, and you want to attack when the P is strongest? Don' t really understand the only case will be if you can catch out you opponent other way you might not succed. But i do like the fact you want to change standard play. Some player can't adapt well. |
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| Penecks United States. January 04 2013 17:28. Posts 565 | Profile # |
| It's basically a really late 3rax. And that hasn't worked since early 2011. |
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| Teoita Italy. January 04 2013 19:15. Posts 4456 | Profile Blog # |
On January 04 2013 13:08 KawaiiRice wrote:
once the P sees marauder, chronos out an immortal (assuming 1g fe 3g robo) and makes zealots/uses force field you are extremely behind, not to mention this build sounds horribly inefficient.
Pretty much this. Plus, bio without stim hitting that late isn't scary at all. |
| | Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright. | |
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| SpeCtor January 04 2013 20:39. Posts 232 | Profile # |
| probably would be better to do a 3 rax stim timing off 1 base while faking an expansion or something. |
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| samuelspark January 04 2013 20:51. Posts 18 | Profile # |
Thanks for feedback.
Your medivac push isn't actually delayed because if you start your factory at 7 minutes, it takes 152 + a couple more seconds to get 2 medivacs out. And Stim only takes 170 seconds (approximately the same time), so it sounds perfectly possible to have the standard timing. Except you'd be behind in upgrades. But I see all your points. I'll be making adjustments soon. |
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| sVnteen Germany. January 04 2013 21:00. Posts 2173 | Profile # |
well I'm afraid that any immortal completely destorys this build and if the toss scouts early marauders he is most likely going to chrono out one immortal just to be safe and without stim you are never going to be able to snipe an immortal as long as there are other protoss units around.
It seems to me that this build is pretty much only effective to punish very late robo (for example with some sort of fast storm build) but at least back when I played terran (idk about 5-6 months ago) that kind of builds were pretty rare and it's not like it's undefendable with a greedy storm build (obviously I haven't seen how it matches up just theory work here) |
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| samuelspark January 04 2013 22:39. Posts 18 | Profile # |
| Do you guys think that this build would be good to fake pressure, take map control, force some chrono boosts, maybe even bait out some extra sentries/forcefields? I could adjust the build so it allows for the usual 10 minute push. |
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| Kfcnoob United States. January 04 2013 23:12. Posts 292 | Profile # |
This is not an anti metagame timing or anything fancy like that lol. Its just a simple tech lab focused push before both races have T3. Its sort of a cheese because force fields can prevent u from entering the front door and u can't elevator since no T3. The toss could also just beat ur army by chronoing immortal and attacking u. If toss is passive, u can probably get Vikings out before a colossus push. Basically, this is just a less potent frontal attack and is why noone does it.
Going for 3cc 2ebay might also b a risky followup if protoss decides to abuse ur situation |
| | And Artosis sayeth "the one who kills many, but loses few, comes out ahead." |
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| Moosy Canada. January 04 2013 23:22. Posts 367 | Profile # |
| you dont need double gas first marauders arent gas heavy. double tech lab before factory is common. |
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| Nimix France. January 04 2013 23:29. Posts 433 | Profile # |
| You can just move out early with marines with a standard build to clear towers/force units, and still not get that much gas early for basically nothing. |
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| Sated England. January 04 2013 23:42. Posts 3724 | Profile Blog # |
| Anti-metagame timing attacks only really work if the opponent fails to react to what they're scouting and change what they're doing. Like KawaiiRice already said, this will get shut down hard by any Protoss who decides to make Immortals before you push, which they have the capacity to do after opening with any standard expand -> 3 Gate Robo build. |
| | EU Masters Protoss playing for Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| MateShade Australia. January 04 2013 23:50. Posts 708 | Profile # |
| It's possible to line this attack up with the same 2 Medivac stim timing at 10 minutes. But that timing is going to be severely weakened. Also having so much has early on as Terran won't line up nicely after that 10 minute mark if you're going bio and don't have a fast 3rd cc. I don't really know how to explain it but it just doesn't work |
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| KingAlphard Italy. January 05 2013 00:16. Posts 116 | Profile # |
Sorry but this is quite a suicide timing. Terran's strong timing is when he has both stimpack and the first 2 medivacs, before that a bio army kind of sucks. It's true that the protoss can't have AOE at 7:45, but it's not needed at all.
I don't even know if the protoss actually needs an immortal. Good forcefields + zealot/stalker should be enough.Last edit: 2013-01-05 00:17:39 |
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| uh-oh Hong Kong. January 05 2013 01:24. Posts 92 | Profile Blog # |
| As a protoss I can tell you I always get a 5-6 minute-ish robo for obs, so I don't straight die to cloaked banshees and get to confirm that you are doing the 10 minute push, Unless you are going heavy air I always get 2-3 immortals because they're just good units. A small force of immortals and stalkers with good focus fire+force field to split up half of the army will simply shut down this build hard. |
| | When I get to grandmasters, you have my permission to die! |
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