Figured I'd move this out of the other thread as it no longer pertinent.
As the min-max damage bug will no longer be fixed, I wanted to figure out how this would affect the selection between Rubies / Emeralds. Weapons that currently are not affected by the bug (elemental weapons like Shenlong, some random ones like Windforce, will only slightly be affected by this) This will mostly focus on black weapons. I decided to compare the top 3 gems, as even my cheap-ass can craft a Perfect Star these days.
Perfect Star = 90% Crit Damage or +100 min/max Radiant Star = 100% Crit Damage or +125 min/max Marquise Star = 110% Crit Damage or +150 min/max
This chart ESTIMATES what the expected DPS % increase would happen given the weapon dps and aps. For example, a Skorn with 1250 dps @ 1 attack speed has a ruby % damage of ~24%. Keep in mind the attack speed is only the attack speed of the weapon, not any additional ias you have on armor.
Now using that Ruby %, pick a column close to the resulting %, find your un-socketed Crit % and Crit Damage and look at the cell. If it is RED, then that means the ruby is better. If it is GREEN then the emerald wins out. The following 2 charts show the difference between 1h+shield and DW. Manticore is a special case since both rubies would be in the same weapon with some slight buff (1x = 24%, 2x = 54% boost).
If you have one slow/one fast weapon, just average your two DPS % form the first chart. Also for certain classes that have mechanics that ignore offhand dps (Barbs only?) the likely scenario of Ruby in MH and Emerald in OH could apply.
Edit: added crit up to 70%, HD version with more detailed breakdowns (copy-past ftw)
Edit2: More relevant due to the new calculations:
On February 05 2013 08:24 Burrfoot wrote: Because I was in an animate-gif mood today, made these charts to compare Ruby vs Emerald (again.. yep).
The results are completely independent of your main stat (dex, str, int) and combined IAS. The only input to determine how effective a ruby vs emerald are these factors: your weapon's AVERAGE damage, the % damage affix rolled, and your (unsocketed) crit/crit damage levels. So while the speed of the weapon and any IAS you have on armor doesn't affect the comparison, the weapon speed indirectly affects the average damage since Blizzard wanted most 1h and 2h weapons to have comparable DPS (1h ~1250 dps pre-ias max, 2h ~1450 dps pre-ias max)
As the "effectiveness" of a +150 ruby is different between weapons types with different average damages, your individual Ruby DMG % needs to be calculated first. This is basically the increase in average damage a ruby has on a specific weapon. The upper right of the following charts shows the "perfect" weapon of each class's Ruby DMG % with a Marquise Ruby. (ie - highest % dmg & MinMaxDmg rolled)
Ruby DMG % Weapon Quick Reference Guide:
Input: Average Damage = listed weapon damage range (include elemental) % Damage = damage affix, 50% max Ruby Value = 150 (Marquise Ruby) Crit % = 5% base PLUS your crit from gear / skills Crit Dmg % = You base unsocketed crit damage from gear only
Output Ruby DMG % = [ Ruby Value * (1+% dmg) ] / [ Average Damage ]
Now take that Ruby DMG % and your individual crit % and crit dmg % along with the following charts to determine what gem is better. If you have two weapons, average each weapon's Ruby DMG % together. As you can see with DW, the ruby % would need to be VERY high to be competitive against double emerald. Generally most 2h are ~15%, 1h weapons ~25%. The only exception are Manticores - where the 2 rubies stack to become ~38%. Some example calculations:+ Show Spoiler +
General Example: If weapon with 400 average damage increases to 480 average damage, the Ruby DMG % = 20%.
Extreme Example: In the extreme case of putting a Marq Ruby inside a level 5 weapon with 20 average damage Ruby DMG % = 700%+, making them the obvious option. (you'd need a 2000% emerald to even register.)
Specific Example (PTR Verification) Skorn Average Damage = (1061+1492)/2 = 1277.8 (Blizz like whole numbers here for some reason) % Damage = 46% Ruby Value = 100
If they make perfect star rubies and lower scale well, won't it put a massive damper on non-socketed weapons in low level, especially in HC? Kinda dumb, imo. I'm personally hoping they just release Marquise star as a nonlinear jump in gem damage bonus, otherwise you throatpunch the whole levelling curve towards the wealthy.
As for rubies being competitors to emeralds, I hope this thread isn't necessary and they end up being good for different reasons, rather than being just considered as comparable +dps to any build.
Last edit: 2013-01-23 09:42:15
Pokebunny United States. January 23 2013 10:02. Posts 9580
On January 23 2013 09:40 Staboteur wrote: If they make perfect star rubies and lower scale well, won't it put a massive damper on non-socketed weapons in low level, especially in HC? Kinda dumb, imo. I'm personally hoping they just release Marquise star as a nonlinear jump in gem damage bonus, otherwise you throatpunch the whole levelling curve towards the wealthy.
As for rubies being competitors to emeralds, I hope this thread isn't necessary and they end up being good for different reasons, rather than being just considered as comparable +dps to any build.
That's already the case with low level weapons though lol.
On January 23 2013 09:40 Staboteur wrote: If they make perfect star rubies and lower scale well, won't it put a massive damper on non-socketed weapons in low level, especially in HC? Kinda dumb, imo. I'm personally hoping they just release Marquise star as a nonlinear jump in gem damage bonus, otherwise you throatpunch the whole levelling curve towards the wealthy.
As for rubies being competitors to emeralds, I hope this thread isn't necessary and they end up being good for different reasons, rather than being just considered as comparable +dps to any build.
That's already the case with low level weapons though lol.
ye, you basically see a 200% dps rise from lvl 14 to lvl 15, simply cause sockets are available :D
so what these charts tell me, is that: - emeralds get better than rubys if your crit% is high - if you already have enough critdmg from your restgear, rubys get better.
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Conquest101 United States. January 23 2013 12:47. Posts 1208
So unfortunately, you stopped your chart at 50% crit chance, but I assume that I would want to stay with emeralds if I have 60% crit chance (with warcry, 70% with WotB) and dual wield yes?
Staboteur Canada. January 23 2013 12:57. Posts 647
Mm, I guess it's alright. It just might make MP0 levels 15-59 almost a joke, but new players won't really hit a sudden jump in difficulty at any point, and others can adjust MP to suit whatever difficulty they want.
As it is now, it kinda transitions reasonably from lvl 15's huge jump in DPS to level 55-59, where the damage bonus becomes far less critical and perhaps unnecessary... though I don't think many people build the crit chance before 60 to make an emerald worth it.
On January 23 2013 09:40 Staboteur wrote: If they make perfect star rubies and lower scale well, won't it put a massive damper on non-socketed weapons in low level, especially in HC? Kinda dumb, imo. I'm personally hoping they just release Marquise star as a nonlinear jump in gem damage bonus, otherwise you throatpunch the whole levelling curve towards the wealthy.
As for rubies being competitors to emeralds, I hope this thread isn't necessary and they end up being good for different reasons, rather than being just considered as comparable +dps to any build.
I put amethysts in my weapons low level HC, I guess I'm doing something wrong, but I don't wanna die!
On January 23 2013 11:06 KalWarkov wrote: so what these charts tell me, is that: - emeralds get better than rubys if your crit% is high - if you already have enough critdmg from your restgear, rubys get better.
Pretty much, rubies enter the final total DPS equation earlier than crit damage, because crit damage needs a crit event to occur first. But then again, people with high crit chance and terrible crit damage probably don't exist.
On January 23 2013 12:47 Conquest101 wrote: So unfortunately, you stopped your chart at 50% crit chance, but I assume that I would want to stay with emeralds if I have 60% crit chance (with warcry, 70% with WotB) and dual wield yes?
I added up to 70%. But barbs are a special case with many ignoring offhand dps, so if the majority of your dps is MH, then a Ruby in that and Emerald in the OH could be an option.
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I think the problem is that that when dual wielding, the crit damage from an emerald benefits both hands while the flat damage from a ruby affects only the weapon it is socketed in. Other than a couple of specific skills (sprint RLTW and rend) which always takes the base damage of the mainhand, most of the other skills are going to suffer because of this.
For non-dual wielding classes, crit damage is in shorter supply so it hurts more to get rid of 100% from the mainhand. Meanwhile, the offhand means that crit chance is extra high while it also provides a decent amount of average damage too, In this case, going for the emerald would give you a more even distribution of DPS stats.
How about 2x socket manticore? Im guessing for DH you really want to stick with Emeralds, but double ruby can really go into something crazy no? especially if you use mechanical play (sentries etc.)
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Nekovivie United Kingdom. January 23 2013 20:08. Posts 2249
On January 23 2013 20:08 Nekovivie wrote: Manticores with almost 2000dps
hhhhhnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggg
How bout Calamities with almost 2k? Minmaxdam bug ftw ! Manticores with rubies actually end up benefiting from it as well after gemming but don't see as drastic an improvement due to slow attack speed and elemental damage. But if there were Calamities with 2 sockets... 2.5k dps!
So with my toon, is it better to run 2 marquise emeralds, or 2 marquise rubies, or 1 of each?
I took my character through a couple of online calculators and it seems like the recommended route is to use 1 of each gem.
According to the chart I have it says you should use 2 rubies since un-socketed you have 61% crit chance and 376% crit damage. With 1.22 attack speed @ 1338 dps puts you around ~25% dps increase per +150 gem. 2 gems stack so it would put you in the 50% column. Using the 2 socket chart, going down to your unsocketed crit of 60% with 375 cd lands you squarely in the red. Of course that chart is a linearly scaled estimate with non-specific break points, but after messing around on D3up a bit came up with this:
Left is the manticore dps with 2 +150 rubies, middle is the dps result, right is the result with 2x +110% crit gems. The calculator seems to bug out with 2 rubies, so take that with a grain of salt.
Last edit: 2013-01-23 20:49:39
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Reasonable Ukraine. January 24 2013 00:26. Posts 1331
Looks like ruby for MH and emerald for OH for me (barb). Although I don't think I'll be upgrading it right a way. It seems like a hellishly expensive upgrade. I'd rather try my luck in crafting BoA pieces with 100 mils.
Nekovivie United Kingdom. January 24 2013 00:28. Posts 2249
The formula for DPS (single weapon) is: DPS = ((min+max)/2)*APS*(1+IAS)*(1+primary/100)*(1+CC*CD)*(1+DmgMod)
Rather than calculating nominal increases in DPS, I think it'd be easier to compare percentage increases.
We can see that DPS is linearly proportional to both AvgDmg (which is ((min+max)/2)), as well as (1+CC*CD), so we can ignore the rest of the stuff when trying to calculate the percentage increase in DPS from a given gem.
To find the percentage increase for a marquis ruby, we'd just take: %Increase = 225/AvgDmg
To find the percentage increase for a marquis emerald, we'd do the following: %Increase = ((1+CC*(CD+1.1))-(1+CC*CD))/(1+CC*CD) %Increase = 1.1CC/(1+CC*CD)
After that, we'd just compare 225/AvgDmg vs 1.1CC/(1+CC*CD).
If we wanted to use a more general formula, we could write it as: Ruby/AvgDmg vs Emerald*CC/(1+CC*CD)
where Ruby = 150|187.5|225 and Emerald = 0.9|1.0|1.1 for PS/RS/M level gems.
Trying to determine the better MH gem for a WW barb is more than I feel like attempting right now, as we'd have to estimate how much DPS comes from the MH vs OH based on APS, IAS, and WW vs RTLW ticks. This is also affected by the trajectory your barb travels, which is dependent on whether you're fighting a small boss, a large one, or a group of trash mobs which you can travel straight through, resulting in more distance traveled per amount of time, and therefore more tornados dropped per amount of time. I'm hoping someone on some forum will figure it out one day and I'll just use the results to determine which gem to use.
As a side note, it's really misleading to say that rubies benefit high APS weapons more (implying that it's due to the APS). I could just as well say that emeralds benefit high APS weapons. If we're using nominal DPS changes as a measure (a very poor one to use), then just having good gear will yield the largest increases. Someone with 500k DPS is going to get a larger increase than someone with 100k DPS regardless of who's using the fast weapon and who's using a ruby vs an emerald. If we use percentage increases as a measurement, then rubies benefit those with lower average damage the most (regardless of APS), while emeralds benefit those with a high CC/CD ratio. While it's true most high APS weapons are capped at a lower average damage than low APS weapons, a high APS weapon with high average damage will not gain a larger percentage increase than a low APS, low damage weapon.
Sorry for my rambling. While I do think the OP's charts can be very helpful for determining which gem to use, I just wanted to offer another method of comparison for those who don't like lookup tables.
SacredTears United States. January 24 2013 04:09. Posts 22
So if i have 50 cc and 300 cd open sockets, dual wielding ef 1.2k dps, 1.44 aps and axe 1.15k dps, 1.3 aps that's a 35% ruby in the ef and 40% ruby in the axe with ef's speed bonus? so id look at the 40% column and conclude that dual emeralds are better?
On January 24 2013 02:39 Dazarath wrote: As a side note, it's really misleading to say that rubies benefit high APS weapons more (implying that it's due to the APS).
Everything was calculated independent of the character attack speed (and the charter to determine the ruby damage % says specifically to use the weapon aps, not the character aps with all the armor/jewlery IAS factored in) I understand what you're trying to say, but it's already taken into account.
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