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| DW-Unrec February 08 2013 04:13. Posts 279 | Profile Blog # |
I'm making a list with my personal opinion on items that are over an under rated by the community along with why and when you should and shouldn't buy them. I don't know, maybe one of you find this useful or maybe we could start a discussion over one of those items.
Overrated
1. Hand of midas
2. Black King Bar
3. TP scrolls
Underrated
1. Meddalion of courage and armour
2. Ethereal Blade
3. Boots of Travel
4. Semi carrys
Hand of Midas
First would have to be Hand of Midas. Many people say its a ricing item, that it shouldn't be bought unless you want to farm for the late game. I say otherwise, I say that midas is the DotA 2 Cheese. First of all, its not the best item to increase GPM because it only helps in creeping once every 100 seconds. Second of all, it doesn't increase anything or any stat that will help on fights like butterfly or buriza, the +AS is very noticeable but not game changing, and third of all, its benefits gets weaker as the game goes by.
So how do I think people should use it?
Cheese. I must ask you, what can you do with:
-Extra levels
-Extra attack speed
-Ability to clear one hard creep camp every minute.
-Running against the clock, every minute that goes by, hard camps aren't as hard as before.
The correct answer is for you to decide. I just don't think its a ricing item. Maybe you could use it if you want to gank, but you dont wanna fall behind in levels? Imagine that midas could be like a bank investment. You pay 5 minutes of GPM for the possibility of earning gold and EXP without having to go through the formality of laning.
Black King Bar
I think some people don't know how to use BKB. In DotA 2 it doesn't dispell every single debuff, and many spells go through BKB. Many times, the correct answer to that support disabling you might not be BKB. You also have to consider the stat bonus it gives. Just like blink dagger, rushing it might not be the smartest choice.
Teleportation Scrolls
This is an item that everyone should carry and I'm well aware you are very tired of knowing this. You should think twice before teleporting back to base to heal or TPing back after healing. 135 gold is not a small ammount, and using it on non-urgent situations will waste you GPM.
TP to counter-gank with an ally = good
TP to heal or go back to lane = possibly bad
Medallion of Courage
Two thing that I noticed when playing supports is that 1. There's nothing to do with your APM 2. We are lacking cheap items that increase your EHP. While I was in that line of thought I discovered this item. Sometimes people forget that armour is a very efficient way of increasing your effective HP. Stacking basilius and Mekan's armour can increase the ammount of hits a support survives by a huge ammount. MoC is no exception. I don't think you should get this item if you don't have a right clicker on your team, tho.
Ethereal Blade
It's a cheaper alternative for Sheep Stick. It increases your DPS and gives you the possibility of disabling their right clicker. I like to get this on silencer if they have right clickers. Buying this as any hero if they don't have right clickers is a waste of money IMO, even if you have nukers on your team, I highly doubt you'll be able to coordinate spells with your team to nuke the banished guy.
Boots of Travel and Battlefury
I belive those are the farm brothers. BF is the melee version while BoT is the ranged. I'm sure people are very familiar with BF, and I belive you can apply everything you know about BF to BoT. Movespeed can, in a certain way, increase your damage. I like to get it on heroes that could use the multi lane farm and helping allies. Getting it as a first item might be a bad idea depending on their picks.
Semi carrys
What? This isn't an item. I don't know If I have been playing on a shitty league when I realized this, but putting 2 semi carrys on the hard lane (vs their carry + support) is a very efficient way of shutting down their farm on pubs. You have to be really careful with ganks from their top lane or jungle when doing this.
//////Researching/////
I'm trying to figure out the role of items like mask of madness, eul's and blademail. Maybe someone can help me figure that out?
And I think that's it. Hope you guys can tell me I'm wrong along with a good argument. |
| | Masters on SC2 // Diamond on DotA 2 |
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 TheYango United States. February 08 2013 04:18. Posts 15780 | Profile # |
"Overrated" and "underrated" aren't useful concepts insofar as items are concerned.
Every item in the game is useful--it's all about learning WHEN they're useful. |
| | 如果有一天星际没有了,如果有一天DOTA没有了,我不会消失. |
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| DW-Unrec February 08 2013 04:23. Posts 279 | Profile Blog # |
On February 08 2013 04:18 TheYango wrote:
"Overrated" and "underrated" aren't useful concepts insofar as items are concerned.
Every item in the game is useful--it's all about learning WHEN they're useful.
That is true, but judging by your reply I don't think you realize that a lot of people don't put that in practice. It is not until the very top bracket of VH until you start to see people making HH to kill anti mage, instead of BKB or some non-sense item. |
| | Masters on SC2 // Diamond on DotA 2 |
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| emythrel United Kingdom. February 08 2013 04:24. Posts 2263 | Profile Blog # |
| how can you put TP in the over rated column? Its one of the most useful items in the game, you can use it to counter gank, to save towers or to get out of a bad situation. If anything for 99% of the playerbase it is the single most under rated item in the game |
| | When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone. |
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| TheYango United States. February 08 2013 04:29. Posts 15780 | Profile # |
On February 08 2013 04:24 emythrel wrote:
how can you put TP in the over rated column? Its one of the most useful items in the game, you can use it to counter gank, to save towers or to get out of a bad situation. If anything for 99% of the playerbase it is the single most under rated item in the game
He has it there not because it's bad, but because it's heavily mis-used, which I agree with.
TPing out to lanes to farm is an awful habit that 99% of the community has. A TP scroll is worth 3 creeps AND puts your TP on CD, and unless a big wave is about to hit the tower, walking to lane won't lose you more than the TP.Last edit: 2013-02-08 04:32:53 |
| | 如果有一天星际没有了,如果有一天DOTA没有了,我不会消失. |
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| DW-Unrec February 08 2013 04:30. Posts 279 | Profile Blog # |
On February 08 2013 04:24 emythrel wrote:
how can you put TP in the over rated column? Its one of the most useful items in the game, you can use it to counter gank, to save towers or to get out of a bad situation. If anything for 99% of the playerbase it is the single most under rated item in the game
I don't have to say its situational, right? You are obviously teleporting if an ally is getting ganked. Thing is, people are starting to over-use them. Its a waste of money to teleport to the tier 2 tower or if the carry is farming quietly there and you tp for no reason. |
| | Masters on SC2 // Diamond on DotA 2 |
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| GentleDrill United Kingdom. February 08 2013 04:47. Posts 248 | Profile # |
Ethereal Blade isn't as good as Sheep because they can simply BKB out of ethereal form, whereas if they're sheeped they can't do anything. And any non-idiot carry will have a BKB before you can get Ethereal Blade even if it is cheaper than Sheep. It doens't even last as long (3 sec banishment vs 3.5 sec sheep).
Ethereal has other benefits, but the "disable" is absolutely not a reason to consider it over a Sheepstick.Last edit: 2013-02-08 04:47:34 |
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| MrCon France. February 08 2013 05:12. Posts 20483 | Profile # |
I'd say hand of midas is overrated, or at least overused currently. I think it's EG that runs 3 midas regularly nowadays. I hate that "trend".
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| synapse China. February 08 2013 05:23. Posts 6924 | Profile Blog # |
On February 08 2013 04:13 DW-Unrec wrote:
TP to heal or go back to lane = possibly bad
Possibly, but that doesn't mean its overrated. Incorrect usage of items is always bad, correct usage of items is good. You wouldn't TP back just to soak up 4 creeps worth of exp as a support, but you would certainly TP back to lane to get 4 extra last hits.
Also, Eblade over Sheep is WAY too situational. Sheep has a stronger disable (since they can't just BKB out of it) and gives much more useful stats + mana regen. Agility is mostly wasted on any spellcaster that wants to amp damage with eblade instead of just going sheep.
Some actually underrated items I'd say would be Rod of Atos, Eul's, etc.Last edit: 2013-02-08 06:33:58 |
| | Mmmm butterfly... delicious. |
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| emythrel United Kingdom. February 08 2013 05:28. Posts 2263 | Profile Blog # |
On February 08 2013 04:30 DW-Unrec wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 04:24 emythrel wrote:
how can you put TP in the over rated column? Its one of the most useful items in the game, you can use it to counter gank, to save towers or to get out of a bad situation. If anything for 99% of the playerbase it is the single most under rated item in the game
I don't have to say its situational, right? You are obviously teleporting if an ally is getting ganked. Thing is, people are starting to over-use them. Its a waste of money to teleport to the tier 2 tower or if the carry is farming quietly there and you tp for no reason.
I agree that Tps are used horribly and often so. But to say that they are over rated is wrong, they should be in the under rated column, you should always carry one because at some point it is going to save you more than the 135g it cost. Whether its to escape a gank or the reverse, to save a tower or to take a tower its value is way above the cost when used right.
99% of the playerbase doesn't value a tp beyond getting back to their lane in the first 10 minutes. The amount of times i've seen someone pushing late game to the opponents t2/3 and then having no escape is horrifying! If you try to always have a tp scroll on you, you always have an escape and that is usually worth way more than 135g. You also have the ability to get home fast to defend or switch lanes.
I just think its stupid to say they are over rated. They are often misused but always under rated by the vast majority of players. If you asked a pro "what is the one item you would recommend in dota?" most would answer "Town Portal". Those who over rate TP are in the minority, I probably over rate them but its better than under rating them |
| | When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone. |
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| BurningSera United Kingdom. February 08 2013 06:14. Posts 5272 | Profile Blog # |
Yup BoT is a farming tool, it is especially notable back then when there wasnt much choices of the boots. Midas is actually a farming item AND a comeback item at the same time, it depends on game because it can generate gold out of no way which is very useful if you are in a disadvantaged game.
And that 2xsemi carries is actually a very very well kept secret in playing pub. Is just that it is hard to find people willing to be flexible at a higher level game (irony i know, most people think carry = carry = farming etc).
Eblade is pretty meh to do what you suggested, Halberd has better build up and cheaper ie more practical. It is however can be used like you said, so build it on a position 1-3 (agi) heroes is not the worst item.
Like yango said it is about figuring out when to use the right items. And believe it or not different regions of dota players have different 'trends' of buying X item on heroes. Generally speaking MoM is the most cost efficient dps item beside maelstorm (maelstrom is more about farming/clearing creep) if the oppo team lack of disable/nukes. Eul the most cost-efficient semi-disable item because it has the same mana regen as hex/orchid. I am actually what to know more about Bmail because i almost never build it on any hero except clock or Cent, to me it is almost solely designed for tanky initiator and to me i will not get it if i dont have at least 12armor and 1800hp, while situationally it should not be a bad item to use against some huge burst damage enemies if i was a key hero. |
| | Spawn more Overlords - Zerg player at heart. 2009, 820, Yaphets, YamateH <3 |
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| Comeh United States. February 08 2013 06:26. Posts 3843 | Profile Blog # |
I want to touch on hand of midas for a second, but i'll keep it short.
Hand of midas is an item of opportunity - if you know that you can get away with it, you should get it on approximately ~50% of the carries (as a carry or as a natures prophet :D). Against some lineups, its suicidal to get - over time you'll learn when you can and cannot. Essentially, the reason you get it is so that when you have the same level of farm you would have had without it (7200 gold without it, or 7200 + 1900 with the midas), you will be a higher level so you can have a larger impact afterwards in the game. Thus, in the middle of the midgame, heroes that peak around this time will have even a stronger peak, and can snowball extremely well (Mainly thinking Naix here, though we can throw in heroes like Lone Druid, Void is pretty good as well). Also, this item is relatively more effective for heroes where they are more reliant on attack speed, so there is more incentive for that.
Overall, I wouldn't say the item is overrated, but more misunderstood.
On February 08 2013 05:12 MrCon wrote:
I'd say hand of midas is overrated, or at least overused currently. I think it's EG that runs 3 midas regularly nowadays. I hate that "trend".
Most of the time I see them do this, they snowball really hard and dominate their game. If they can get 3 hands of midas's up and not suffer much from the early / earlymid game, why not?Last edit: 2013-02-08 06:27:52 |
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| TheYango United States. February 08 2013 07:35. Posts 15780 | Profile # |
On February 08 2013 06:14 BurningSera wrote:
Like yango said it is about figuring out when to use the right items. And believe it or not different regions of dota players have different 'trends' of buying X item on heroes. Generally speaking MoM is the most cost efficient dps item beside maelstorm (maelstrom is more about farming/clearing creep) if the oppo team lack of disable/nukes. Eul the most cost-efficient semi-disable item because it has the same mana regen as hex/orchid. I am actually what to know more about Bmail because i almost never build it on any hero except clock or Cent, to me it is almost solely designed for tanky initiator and to me i will not get it if i dont have at least 12armor and 1800hp, while situationally it should not be a bad item to use against some huge burst damage enemies if i was a key hero.
Blademail is absolutely worthless on tanky initiating heroes.
Blademail is an item that, for a hero that does NOT want to be focused, allows them to reduce the amount of pressure on themselves for 4.5 seconds because enemies get punished for focusing them. Tanky initiating heroes are the exact OPPOSITE of this. They have the majority of their utility up-front, so once they've initiated, the enemy does not have ENOUGH reason for the enemy team to focus them. This is why typically these heroes will get defensive utility/aura items like Mek and Pipe--to INCREASE their teamfight value.
Blademail is a situational item for a carry that needs some deterrence for being attacked because they cannot afford to build pure survivability. This is why, before it was nerfed many patches ago, it was popular on semi-carries like Razor, SF, and DP.Last edit: 2013-02-08 07:37:28 |
| | 如果有一天星际没有了,如果有一天DOTA没有了,我不会消失. |
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| BurningSera United Kingdom. February 08 2013 07:45. Posts 5272 | Profile Blog # |
| But in pub people will focus on whoever initiated. And if i saw a carry with 1k+ hp with bmail (commonly seen this on BS player), the team will focus him regardless. Last edit: 2013-02-08 08:06:11 |
| | Spawn more Overlords - Zerg player at heart. 2009, 820, Yaphets, YamateH <3 |
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| Ramiz1989 February 08 2013 08:26. Posts 1247 | Profile # |
On February 08 2013 07:35 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 06:14 BurningSera wrote:
Like yango said it is about figuring out when to use the right items. And believe it or not different regions of dota players have different 'trends' of buying X item on heroes. Generally speaking MoM is the most cost efficient dps item beside maelstorm (maelstrom is more about farming/clearing creep) if the oppo team lack of disable/nukes. Eul the most cost-efficient semi-disable item because it has the same mana regen as hex/orchid. I am actually what to know more about Bmail because i almost never build it on any hero except clock or Cent, to me it is almost solely designed for tanky initiator and to me i will not get it if i dont have at least 12armor and 1800hp, while situationally it should not be a bad item to use against some huge burst damage enemies if i was a key hero.
Blademail is absolutely worthless on tanky initiating heroes. Blademail is an item that, for a hero that does NOT want to be focused, allows them to reduce the amount of pressure on themselves for 4.5 seconds because enemies get punished for focusing them. Tanky initiating heroes are the exact OPPOSITE of this. They have the majority of their utility up-front, so once they've initiated, the enemy does not have ENOUGH reason for the enemy team to focus them. This is why typically these heroes will get defensive utility/aura items like Mek and Pipe--to INCREASE their teamfight value. Blademail is a situational item for a carry that needs some deterrence for being attacked because they cannot afford to build pure survivability. This is why, before it was nerfed many patches ago, it was popular on semi-carries like Razor, SF, and DP.
I usually agree with everything that you are saying, but saying that Blademail is absolutely worthless on tanky heroes is huge exaggeration. Using Blademail when 5v5 teamfight happens can do a lot of damage by just reflecting AoE damage, and if anything, Tanky heroes are gonna survive that AoE, while dealing back a ton of damage.
But just because of the way the Blademail works, it is almost always much better to go for Pipe than Blademail if they have solid AoE line-up, and doing both is pretty bad. |
| | "Living for the Swarm..." |
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| igotmyown United States. February 08 2013 08:37. Posts 2900 | Profile Blog # |
I've been wondering if it might be a really good item against aoe heroes and heroes with delayed spells (gyro). Of course they can get bkb
And blade mail was nerfed, but didn't they buff the duration recently? |
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 flamewheel HANG KANG. February 08 2013 08:44. Posts 21524 | Profile Blog # |
| Posting here to remind myself to come back to this thread on a computer. Lots of good things to be said about items and this could be a really good thread. |
| | Clouds are making way for me. | |
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| DrPandaPhD Sweden. February 08 2013 09:15. Posts 1547 | Profile # |
Divine Rapier is underrated
Also think Crystalys is underrated. Just build one and complete the daedelus later. That item is very cost-effective.
I think Drums is overrated, but it's still like a really good item. But not the god-tier people make it out to be and build it on every hero. |
| | Leenock -- Last Hope of the Nydus |
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| superstartran United States. February 08 2013 09:32. Posts 1307 | Profile # |
| Hand of Midas is not overrated at all; it is the pubstar item for various reasons, mostly because people are too dumb to realize how to take advantage of a Midas rusher. |
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| Nevuk United States. February 08 2013 10:26. Posts 4183 | Profile Blog # |
If the OP had mentioned rod of atos he would have summoned aui_2000 .
I think Atos is slightly underrated but mostly because a BKB is only 800 more and the flat out superior item in most matches.
(I really see no reason to think of BKB as being overrated - there are some matches where it's useless, but if any match goes on long enough there becomes a need for one on a carry due to sheepsticks, blademail, eul's)
Abyssal is a harder item to figure out - it's super expensive and really just a BKB counter (with a bash chance and +100 damage). No idea if it's under or overratedLast edit: 2013-02-08 10:27:26 |
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