|
Recently, I've seen a lot of protoss going for greedier openers or trying to cut corners to get an advantage. (im plat terran)
Has anyone tried diong a widow mine with marauder slow push? I think the only thing that would really slow this down would be a skytoss but I think that if micro'd right, ti would work out fine. Ive just been thinking about it at school today and im going to try it when I get home.
Anythin that you guys can consider to be a problem with this aggression? im thinking 2 rax and 1 fact.
|
I think it might get crushed by a Photon overcharge, since your attack should be hitting ~9 minutes, and by then there's only one more minute before either immortal/oracle/voidray to pop in. If you manage to caught him with only Gateway units, it might work, although I would add concussive shells on the mix.
Something that I've been playing around with is gasless expo into WM, tank and rine. It hits the toss base ~10 with 2 tanks, 8 rines and 4 WM, before thermal lance finishes, and I've had ~60% winrate, since either I will take their natural, or at least contain him in 2 bases while I take my third, then transition into regular MMM with a couple WM. I have a bit of issues with fast collosi, but that's more due to my poor macro (not throwing down the starport in time) than to the general idea behind the opener.
|
hmm... I didnt think of overcharge. Thats a good point. I would definately get conc shells, but possible I could wait for the overcharge to go out and then continue the push. Like I said skytoss would be a problem, but with sufficient scouting I could plan for that and get some marines.
Think tat would work or would it still be unable to work cause of the mothership core?
|
I feel that if you are forced to wait 60 secs for the PO to finish, the problem wouldn't be the PO anymore, but rather the units he was able to mass while on 2 bases, while you're only on one (we're talking 10~11 mins). Take what I say with a grain of salt though, since I'm also only plat T, so as usual, if we had better macro, any strat we could try would kill our opponents XD
|
What you can do that I've had some fair success with, is to proxy factory with first 100 gas and make a widowmine while producing marauders at home. Hit about 5:30ish with 2 rauders, 2 rins and a widowmine as well as 2 scvs for a bunker. So far I've yet to fail to kill the nexus at least. Unfortunately, you have be 100% certain he actually has a nexus, because if he goes proxy stargate you are screwed.
|
Well thats the kind of push Im talking about. Really early. And maybe I'm being stubborn and wanting this to work, but I think that even with the units he would produce in that time, I feel like I could have an answet to it so long as I had conc shells and decent micro whle being backed up by the WM.
Thx again for heling me flesh this out I appreciate all the thoughts and arugments. Also sorry for poor grammer and such. On a mobile device.
|
Overcharge would stop it I think I think you can still punish a greedy toss though because if you could get at least medivac when u push it could be enough to keep those marauders alive. Also marines have very high dps early on too.
|
I've been trying something to this effect. A rough BO of what I've tried is:
+ Show Spoiler + 10 Depot 12 Barracks (Build 2 marines when finished) 13 Refinery 15 Orbital Command 16 Depot @100 gas: Factory @100% 2x Marines: tech lab on Barracks @100% Factory: Widow Mine @100% Tech Lab: Marauder @50 Gas: Concussive Shells
From there you keep constructing Mines and Marauders as well as depots as needed. Eventually you will expand and start working towards Bio/Mine or Bio/Hellbat.
I've found it effective at countering several different all ins such as blink all in or 3 Gate Stargate w/ Oracles. It also works wonders against most FEs. It is weak vs early Robotics Facility or if you get really unlucky with your widow mine hits. Most notably, it hits just before the Protoss has enough energy for overcharge, allowing you to burrow your mines in their mineral line.
It feels a lot like a KR 2rax (1 Reactor 1 Tech Lab), but the main difference is that your expand is a bit later and you get Medivacs later. Even though your tech and macro is delayed I think it makes up for it with the extra strength of mines and the ability to defend against Stargate play more easily than a KR 2rax would.
|
If a protoss really goes for a greedy opening, you should be able to kill him by 9mn30 with a standard 1rax FE medivacs push, or a Mine/rines drop. Or if you really want to go early agression you can try an early reaper into macro. 1 base builds are too risky because of photon overcharge I feel, and if your push does no damage you're basically dead if he went for something actually greedy.
|
This reminds me of a 1 fax aggro timing I used to do in WoL. Something like 12 fax 13 gas build that his with 1 ,marine 2 conc shell marauders and 3 scv's. it hit right before 5 minutes so just in time for the typical warp gate to not be finished yet. With proper hold position micro on the scv's it did right well. If this can be accomplished with a 11 gas 13 tax opener to add in mines and hit just a tad later, I can see it as a good pressure expand build. If the toss does photon overcharge, I'd just walk up his ramp to his main, provided he cut sentries to get the msc.
|
United States4883 Posts
The only thing I see working with these particular units is either:
1) Flash's 3CC concussive shell build into bio/mine. This is a macro build that will get you on even footing with the protoss player and take away any kind of map control your opponent has, with the flexibility to transition into an 11-minute MMM timing. You could do a variant on this, emphasizing marauders and mines over marines/medivacs (once you identify you opponent hasn't opened Stargate).
2) Proxy marauders into defensive widow mines. Proxy marauders would be early enough to shut down a really fast FE and cause some damage, and would allow you to get your economy up and safely protected by mines and a bunker. I feel like you would also need a 3rd CC with this build in order to catch up to protoss.
Those are my quick thoughts on marauder/mine. It just costs too much time and money to get early; you'd be better off with a combination like marine/tank for early pushes.
|
Do this build:
10 supply depot 12 barracks 13 gas 15 OC 16 factory
barracks when you can tech lab on first barracks after 3 marines, concussive shells
from there pump rine, marauder, widow mine. if he expos, try to lure first stalker into first widow mine, when you have 2 rauders move out, he should lose his expo (if he overcharges just wait it out and keep pumping units)
if he does expo, you have a really good set up to defend anything.
I'm 90% with this build on masters
EDIT: whoops someone else already posted this build
|
United States4883 Posts
On April 05 2013 09:40 FitCH wrote: Do this build:
10 supply depot 12 barracks 13 gas 15 OC 16 factory
barracks when you can tech lab on first barracks after 3 marines, concussive shells
from there pump rine, marauder, widow mine. if he expos, try to lure first stalker into first widow mine, when you have 2 rauders move out, he should lose his expo (if he overcharges just wait it out and keep pumping units)
if he does expo, you have a really good set up to defend anything.
I'm 90% with this build on masters
EDIT: whoops someone else already posted this build
Question: I suppose this isn't fully in the meta yet, but what do you do against a protoss player who opens stargate after expand? Worst case scenario, protoss can cancel the nexus and FF the ramp. Meanwhile, you have no real options against oracles or a void ray followup. 3 marines will not repel an oracle, and with this build, I don't think you float enough resources to add in an ebay for turrets. In the event that you save yourself from an SCV massacre by oracle, how do you deal with followup pressure whereby protoss cleans up any additional mines with oracle + stalker?
Also, I suppose in the interest of understanding this fully, what is your followup after this incredibly short BO? Do you take expansion then add 2 rax? Do you add 2 rax then take expansion? Do you get a barracks + ebay? You say "pump rine/marauder/widow mine", but from what collection of buildings? The build you mention has just a techlab barracks + a naked factory.
|
United States4883 Posts
On April 05 2013 06:10 SynQ wrote:
I've found it effective at countering several different all ins such as blink all in or 3 Gate Stargate w/ Oracles. It also works wonders against most FEs. It is weak vs early Robotics Facility or if you get really unlucky with your widow mine hits. Most notably, it hits just before the Protoss has enough energy for overcharge, allowing you to burrow your mines in their mineral line.
It feels a lot like a KR 2rax (1 Reactor 1 Tech Lab), but the main difference is that your expand is a bit later and you get Medivacs later. Even though your tech and macro is delayed I think it makes up for it with the extra strength of mines and the ability to defend against Stargate play more easily than a KR 2rax would.
Since I was asking about the same build, can you explain how you can attack before MsC has energy for overcharge? Are you talking about the standard 1-gate FE or the MsC expand? With a MsC expand + MsC/stalker poke, the MsC has just enough energy to overcharge the nexus as soon as it finishes. Just some thoughts.
|
On April 05 2013 09:52 SC2John wrote: Question: I suppose this isn't fully in the meta yet, but what do you do against a protoss player who opens stargate after expand? Worst case scenario, protoss can cancel the nexus and FF the ramp. Meanwhile, you have no real options against oracles or a void ray followup. 3 marines will not repel an oracle, and with this build, I don't think you float enough resources to add in an ebay for turrets. In the event that you save yourself from an SCV massacre by oracle, how do you deal with followup pressure whereby protoss cleans up any additional mines with oracle + stalker?
Also, I suppose in the interest of understanding this fully, what is your followup after this incredibly short BO? Do you take expansion then add 2 rax? Do you add 2 rax then take expansion? Do you get a barracks + ebay? You say "pump rine/marauder/widow mine", but from what collection of buildings? The build you mention has just a techlab barracks + a naked factory.
The widow mines are there to protect against early Stargate play. You can transition however you want. Typically, I take an expo and transition into MMM with either widow mines or Hellbats.
|
On April 05 2013 09:55 SC2John wrote:
Since I was asking about the same build, can you explain how you can attack before MsC has energy for overcharge? Are you talking about the standard 1-gate FE or the MsC expand? With a MsC expand + MsC/stalker poke, the MsC has just enough energy to overcharge the nexus as soon as it finishes. Just some thoughts.
I am mostly talking about 1gate expo, as it is what I mostly see on ladder.
I do not know the specific timings, but you can test it out yourself in unranked to see how well it works. :D I believe that you can still deny mining at the expo if he goes for MsC expo if you tank the overcharge with marauder and run to the mineral line with the mines. I am still trying to work out the specifics with this build.
|
|
The reason why protoss have been playing more greedy is because of the mothership core. If you want to hit a timing make sure you hit before photon overcharge is ready.
|
On April 06 2013 02:28 Aiursc wrote: The reason why protoss have been playing more greedy is because of the mothership core. If you want to hit a timing make sure you hit before photon overcharge is ready.
i know 10 marines (without medivac and upgrades) can not kill an planetary nexus, they will all die. Better go for high damage output. I think your best bet against Protos would be a thorpush (it takes ages before a planetary nexus kills a thor).
Build 1 tank, 2 thors, 1 upgrade and marines out of 2 rax, roll out around 8 minutes, with minimum of 4 scv's on each of the thors for repair. Only threat are immortals so kill them first (it wil work, because the scv's will stall the damage output of the immortals). After that, kill all the artosis pylons so he is supplyblocked and cant produce more immortals = Win. With 2 Thors in your composition u reape Nexi in around 10 seconds
|
I've seen MMA do a proxy factory + 4~5 marines push that severely DELAY protoss expo while getting ur expo in a regular time... the build is like:
- 10 depot - 12 rax - 13 gas - 16 oc - 16 depot - proxy factory
push with 4~5 marines and 1 mine, add the second widow mine to the push as soon as it pops...
expo behind it.
In tvp ur normally go BIO, so the factory isnt that usefull at all, u just proxy it and slowly "mini-siege" the stalkers using the marines as shields and the mine as a miniature tank, when the second mine pops they usually abandon the expo and go take a robo in main, it's hard to take the nexus down, but u severely delay their economy and if u do it correctly, gets almost no losses, u can safely retreat with everything... also, just float the factory away and they go for it, so you can make ur starport
|
|
|
|